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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry

 
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/25/2017 3:46:56 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		The way TOAW is written the air power role in war is abstracted a lot and there's
admitetedly isn't much to do UNLESS you like to micromanage your planes. You can assign
almost any aircraft to almost any mission and attack stuff with them. That's what I like
to do. I use my Ju-88's and HE-111's to drop bridges, attack arty units, attack HQ's
to maybe make them go into reorg ( the whole formation ) and the Stuka's are great against
tank units or mechanized units. I leave SOME bombers on CS but most of the time it's me
directing the aircraft. I was in the USAF and know a little bit about flying missions
and the use of different weapons on different targets, etc.

On the other hand you can just turn on the Air Assistant and let him handle the air war.
The problem with that is that frequently Elmer will assign your bombers to AS missions
and the like. What I've learned to do is let Elmer assign the missions and then go iin
manually and review the missions and cancel the more fabulous ones. Elmer likes to do
airfield strikes a LOT. If you let him he'll go crazy with airfield strikes.

(in reply to John B.)
Post #: 31
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/25/2017 8:23:18 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback! I'm very tempted to get TOAW so I'm following these AARs avidly.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 32
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/26/2017 5:20:03 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

As I recall in this scenario the F-105's don't have the range to reach Hanoi and Haiphong
or am I thinking of a previous version. Verify this for me will you Bill? And I used to
fly on AC-130E/H's and that the Spectre squadron doesn't get any replacements for years
is a drag. What if they all get shot down? No 16th SOS? What kind of world would that
be?


The F-105's can definitely reach Hanoi which is good because they could from the Thai airbases historically.

Yes no replacements till 1970 for the C-130's. They will eventually receive about 30 replacements so the unit will reconstitute if it gets shot down. it is the AC-47 and AC-119 that will perform the Spooky/Specter role in Nam. They have greater numbers and replacements. Of course the AC-130 is 3 times more effective than the AC-119 and 10 times more effective than the AC-47. They all have good ranges.






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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 33
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/26/2017 5:46:25 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		It is a bit interesting to compare the B-52 to the AC aircraft.




Sorry about the see through image.

The AC-130 actually has a higher anti-peronne value but it is a low altitude aircraft whie the B-52 is high altitude. The B-52 advantages are its high defense values, range all weather ability. The larger bomb weight made it easier to knock defenders out of their fortification and defense benefits. Of course if nucs were on the table that would be important.

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< Message edited by Narses -- 11/26/2017 5:56:57 AM >

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 34
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 5:30:32 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

New moves from Bill: And the news is that the war is heating up. I lost a VC batallion during Bill's turn and I'm
going to disband those VC Bn's that are in danger so everything is going relatively well. I saw Bill move some
light transport helicopters into the Saigon area and some of the 3rd Bn Marines landed in the south of S. Vietnam and killed my VC Bn unit with some help of some ARVN DD's just off the coast. I'll have to see if I can find that attack and post a report.


I also did not save a screenie of the battle in the south near Rach Gai in Kien Giang Province. I did get a screenie of the area. I did this because there is an interesting little terrain feature nearby.



As Larry said in an earlier post he went on a bridge busting spree blowing 5 bridges with one of his two starting VC Bn in Chuong Thien. Note #1 i the furthest bride he could reach on Turn 1. The FWA only enough lift capacity for one and a small bit of airlift for para drops. If I can't encircle this hex I alway block an turn 2 advance to the north.

Unfortunately my moue seems very sensitive in terms of opening and closing reports with this game. While hovering over the replacement report I let the courser drift over the End Turn Button. You know it had to fire and my turn ended before I made any moves.

Well I had not moved but I did use my theater options to call for my reinforcements (3rd Marine Div, 13th Air, and 12th Aviation) to arrive burning 12 EEV commitment points.

I told Larry I always use my Theater options first in this scenario so you don't forget.




In the second turn Larry took the unblocked guerilla Bn and moved as far as he could to blow the major river next to the city. Most people don't even realize that it is a major river in that one hex. With impassible terrain bridges blown on both roadways north and south from the town Rach Gai's bad supply situation becomes horrible.

More important to me and maybe Larry is the fact that if the VC survive to pass this bottle neck he can operate in high value province far from ARVN supplies and major units. The only ARVN units that can reach him are the ARVN Rangers. they are still few in number,they do not reconstitute if destroyed and receive almost no replacements.

Kien Giang is a valuable province because if Larry converts a hex to his control and I don't convert it back he has a 50% chance of gaining a victory point. Provinces each have between a 15% a 65% chance to give a VP to the NLF for every province Larry can force a check in. I look at it as Kien Giang averages giving Larry 0.5 VP everytime he convert a hex in the province and I don't take it back.

That is why I sea moved a regiment of my arriving marine reinforcements to Rach Gai. The ARVN rangers might have held them in check but they would have needed help to to have eliminated them. the DD's may have been overkill but they were close and I wanted a sure thing. I have eliminated a distraction and saved ARVN forces a lot of supply burning movements in a poorly supplied area. Because the VC were in communication at the start of the turn a portion of their losses did make it back to Larry's replacement pool. I suffered very light losses.

Larry is probably content to pull so many Marine to IV Corps but some US units would have been drifting into the delta soon in any case. Some of the 173rd or 82nd ABN units will have to fill in for the 3rd Marine Rgt until I can shift it north during operations or with occasional sealift.

Never had a Marine Division strung out from Northern I to almost the far end off the Delta.


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< Message edited by Narses -- 11/28/2017 7:11:11 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 35
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 1:02:58 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's a report on an attack that happened during Bill's turn and you can see how the attack was delayed 9 rounds and I'm
guessing that's because some of the units had to arrive via helicopter and since it lasted 1 whole round the whole
attack took all ten rounds. I'm guessing the turn didn't actually end because of this attack but it's possible. I'm
just guessing off the top of my head what kinds of aircraft were supporting but this is early in the war and we were
giving the South Vietnamese Air Force all kinds of F-5's and A-1E/G/H's during that time. I used to load bombs on them.




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(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 36
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 1:08:57 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's where he bombarded some of my units near the coast with his DD's and evaporated my AA unit. The only thing I can
do is move away from the coast.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 37
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 1:28:02 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I'm building rail south from Hanoi and I'm only in possession of ONE RR engineer unit and it's busy on the Ho Chi Minh
trail. He's only just started so it's going to be a while before any useful utility is had from the rail but somebody
has to repair it. I'm not counting on it for supply yet. Meanwhile, I'm moving all the NVA units I have under the
cover of an AA unit when possible because Allied interdiction is mounting.

I've attached the picture to this post so that those that want to see my exact dispositions are free to look but those
that don't need to see it quite yet don't have to view it. That's fair I think.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 38
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 1:33:43 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Since when is the NVA in charge of the calender? Okie dokie by me. I'm going to start disbanding the old ones.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 39
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/28/2017 1:37:16 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've just now discovered that I can't disband them. And they are in my inventory so they are counted as one of my units
and they are listed in the OOB and everything. I'd rather that the Allies were in charge of the calender if you want my
opinion about it. No matter, we'll carry on like we know what we're doing.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 40
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/29/2017 4:00:30 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Actually Larry your reinforcements provide these unit for information counters on even numbered turns and my FWA provide the calendar counters on the odd numbered turns.

While we are on the subject of information counter Curt Chambers also uses allied unit for two allied information areas.

One allows me to choose between Free Fire zones for my aircraft (actually just free fire everywhere). Free fire gives 100% air shock but costs the Free World Allies (FWA) one VP each turn it is in use. If the moves to the other end of the off map free fire track it activates Restricted rules of engagement and implements a 50% air shock penalty.

The other info area use a counter unit for each US division, indep bde or major air unit. When they are disbanded (at various EEV costs) the division etc will arrive as reinforcements the next turn. They will then be replaced by cadre unit that you disband to withdrawn the US division etc and send it home.









Notice the 12th Avn Grp has no white unit to disband to withdraw its unit from Vietnam. That is because the US will recover no EEV points if the 12th withdraws. With no way to withdraw those units they will remain until total us withdrawal. The MACV Spt Grp behaves the same.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Narses -- 11/29/2017 4:16:08 PM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 41
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/29/2017 4:35:35 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses
Actually Larry your reinforcements provide these unit for information counters on even numbered turns and my
FWA provide the calendar counters on the odd numbered turns.

While we are on the subject of information counters Curt Chambers also uses allied unit for two allied
information areas.

One allows me to choose between Free Fire zones for my aircraft (actually just free fire everywhere).
Free fire gives 100% air shock but costs the Free World Allies (FWA) one VP each turn it is in use.
If the moves to the other end of the off map free fire track it activates Restricted rules of engagement
and implements a 50% air shock penalty.

The other info area use a counter unit for each US division, indep bde or major air unit. When they are
disbanded (at various EEV costs) the division etc will arrive as reinforcements the next turn. They will
then be replaced by cadre unit that you disband to withdrawn the US division etc and send it home.


Notice the 12th Avn Grp has no white unit to disband to withdraw its unit from Vietnam. That is because
the US will recover no EEV points if the 12th withdraws. With no way to withdraw those units they will
remain until total us withdrawal. The MACV Spt Grp behaves the same.

Hey Bill: Thanks for the info and everything, but what I said was my lame attempt at humor. But it's good you
said all that stuff so we will all know. And you're correct in all that verbage. I didn't know that about
the 12th Avn Grp though. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. You want my NVA to destroy it for you?
You wouldn't have to worry about it then. Just park most of the stuff at Da Nang during the monsoon season.
The Thailanders have this really cute custom that during the monsoon season it's okay to splash water on a
stranger downtown just because the person is probably already wet from the rain. So they figure they might
as well make a game out of it. The Thai people splashing water on each other....it's a riot to watch.

Anyway, DaNang had Pierced Steel Planking for runways and taxiways but the airbase at Bien Hoa was like
a modern airport when I was there. Concrete runways, taxiways, aprons, flightlines......it was amazing what
the CB's did to the place. It had a library and a swimming pool. And there was talk of putting in a bowling
alley. It all belonged to the Vietnamese because it's their base, we're only leasing for 99 years or something
so any permanent facilities become the property of the South Vietnamese. It was okay with the Americans
because they didn't have to pay for it and when they left to go home it was forgotten overnight. Let 'em have
it was the saying.

I was out at the flightline one day working on A-37's and OV-10's when the Vietnamese BB stacker aarrived to
deliver some 500 lb bombs and I watched as he would climb up on the low-boy trailer and roll the bombs to the
end of the trailer and kick them off the end of the trailer to watch them drop the three feet or so and hit
the ground like there was nothing wrong. None of the bombs had fuses on them, there was never any "danger"
to what he was doing but it really looked wrong to me. Disneyland is almost as strange as Vietnam.

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 42
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 7:54:02 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Somebody please explain to me how a VC squad with bows and arrows can shoot down 6 Allied aircraft in one afternoon.
These numbers are wildly inaccurate. I realize that these are "monthly" turns but this attack didn't take a month,
it was over after two days tops. I'm going to file a complaint with the wargammer's union.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 43
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:04:09 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey Bill:
Your Diplomatic Messages are still
being clipped
so maybe
you
could
type
shorter
sentences.
Maybe.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 44
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:07:44 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I thought I'd take a look at the news strings to see what Bill is talking about
activity SW of Saigon. Tay Ninh isn't SW of Saigon so he's got bigger problems
than he's said.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 45
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:16:39 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		As you can see the supply from the trail doesn't make it very far into the interior. Can't operate in that environment.
But then neither can Bill.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 46
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:19:33 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		According to the news strings the Monsoon lasted two turns, I'm supposing that's two months and now the countryside is
trying to recover from being in a monsoon and the supply level is going to go up. I'm guessing.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 47
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:26:56 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		The status line at the bottom describes the hex that the 9th VC Division is in as Spotted. So I'm assuming that Bill
knows it's there. Moving it would invoke some Allied interdiction and losses and I'd like to avoid that. There's
not much I can do with an unstealthy division right now. I have to come up with a target for it and give it a mission.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 48
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:32:00 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've got the HQ of the People's Army of Vietnam parked under some AA and amongst some foot soilders just in case Bill
breaks the border to go hunting. The HQ PAVN is bait.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 49
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:36:46 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey Bill:
Your Diplomatic Messages are still
being clipped
so maybe
you
could
type
shorter
sentences.
Maybe.






LOL trying to figure out how many key strokes I can get into a line.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 50
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:39:38 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've just discovered that I have three Cadres already. These units can be disbanded thereby putting all of their
contents in the replacement pools and it'll act like a boost to the units needing some replacements really bad.
Typically you disband one or more just before a big push somewhere in-country.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 51
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:46:12 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I went to the reports tab and clicked on the "scenario documentation" button and was presented with a dialog that had
the scenario briefing in it and I scrolled down and found this little snippet. I think I know what I have to do now.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 52
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:50:12 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		The Victory-O-meter says that Bill and I are in a draw so far. Now I know.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 53
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 8:55:04 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's all the locations of the stuff that's scheduled to arrive next turn. I need to look
at the site of delivery and see if I own it, is it in danger, is it tactically useful, etc.




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(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 54
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 9:06:25 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I found that at least one of them is going to be born inside the enemy perimeter. I'd best disband that one if I can.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 55
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 9:16:54 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I just now discovered that the 95th VC has their own organic AA and it can move quickly ( relatively )
and all I need to do to use that firepower is move the unit. So I'll move it up to the Cambodia
border and see what happens.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 56
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 9:23:16 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the exact position of all my units. I'm attaching it not embedding it so that if you don't want to see where
they are you aren't forced to. Others can view at their leisure.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 57
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 9:57:47 AM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I thought I'd take a look at the news strings to see what Bill is talking about
activity SW of Saigon. Tay Ninh isn't SW of Saigon so he's got bigger problems
than he's said.





Damn hex possession is showing and I still missed hexes Larry converted Tay Nihn and Binh Tuan. Plus the hexes I mentioned SW of Saigon which were in Lon An province. The hexes he converted in Long An failed to make a check to give him a VP (30% chance) but but he kept two hexes that he converted last turn in provinces I thought I had secured and they did make their checks and scored him two VP. That might not look look like much but in a game with 100+ turn 2 VP a turn can be huge when base VPs are 200 evenly divided between us at start.

It is discouraging when I thought I had patrolled well and Larry till scores. He had a bit of luck added together he could statistically be expected to score 1.25 VP he got 2 VP. If I had commented before the end of my turn I would have said he could have expected 0.3 VP because of an oversight in an obvious area.

This is the meat and potatoes of the CSV scenario. The NLF player gets a chance to score a VP in any province by converting any hex and holding it through the US turn. The FWA have to find these hexes and convert them back or destroy large numbers of NLF units to limit their the number of chances they have to interfere with the pacification program (convert hexes).

If I have not mentioned it yet the US automatically receives 1-3 VPs a turn for his pacification programs. So far I have been receiving 1VP a turn. I don't what exactly causes the change 1n that 1-3 VPs for the FWA each turn. I know that it decreases as the FWA get close to the 60 VP score which gives them an EEV bonus to delay withdrawal.

< Message edited by Narses -- 11/30/2017 11:26:08 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 58
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 10:59:24 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've just discovered that I have three Cadres already. These units can be disbanded thereby putting all of their
contents in the replacement pools and it'll act like a boost to the units needing some replacements really bad.
Typically you disband one or more just before a big push somewhere in-country.






I copied Larry's replacement schedule for the extensive Word documentation that Curt provides with his scenario.

The first cadre group listed is the one Larry has shown above. They cannot be disbanded for replacements until turns 12-16. It may be turns 8-16 but I am pretty sure that the built in turn variation only increases the turn availability and will not lower it rom thebase 12th turn (December 1965).

Viet Cong Replacement Cadres
Cadre Entry Turn/Event Availability Turn*
1 3 12
2 USSR/Chinese aid Entry turn + 9
3 14 20
4 EEV = 15 Entry turn + 9
5 23 32
6 EEV = 30 Entry turn + 9
7 29 37
8 EEV = 45 Entry turn + 8
9 35 43
10 EEV = 60 Entry turn + 8
11 38 46
12 EEV = 75 Entry turn + 7
13 47 54
14 Trail Improvements Entry turn + 3
15 51 55
16 Pipeline Completed Entry turn + 2
17 59 63
18 Trail Construction Entry turn + 4
19 63 66
20 NLF winning by 10 Entry turn + 6
21 66 68
22 NLF winning by 20 Entry turn + 5
23 71 72
24 NLF winning by 60 Entry turn + 4
25 74 75
26 MR 5 Disbanded Entry turn + 3
27 77 78
28 B-2 Disbanded Entry turn + 2
29 83 84
30 Final Withdrawal Entry turn + 1
Opt 1 Theater Option Entry turn + 6
Opt 2 Theater Option Entry turn + 4

VC User Controlled Reinforcement Cadres
MR 5 EEV = 30 n/a
B-2 Trail Improvements n/a

* Availability turn refers to when the garrison orders are lifted and the cadre can be disbanded or moved to the interior of the trail complex. There is a variability of +4 turns.




(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 59
RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/30/2017 11:19:31 PM   
Hyding

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		I tried not to look at the maps and schedules attached to Larry's posts # 53 and 54.

He does not need to worry about and guerilla units arriving as reinforcements or spawned as they reconstitute from replacements.

Guerillas will arrive in enemy controlled hexes. In this scenario at least they are supposed to arrive at alternate hexes in their home province of South Vietnam if the hex is physically occupied by enemy units.

(in reply to Hyding)
Post #: 60
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