? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire

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? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 12/9/2017 5:16:16 PM

Crackaces

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I am looking through the device attributes and I noticed some slow firing devices having negative rates of fire. What does that mean? Do devices with a ROF of 60 (flak guns) get multiple opportunities at 60 per opportunity while negative might not fire at all that combat?
Enquiring minds want to know

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 4/26/2019 5:52:03 PM

Telemecus

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see post 55 here

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4608655&mpage=2&key=

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 12:24:38 AM

Saulust

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Ummm, I've just read the #55 post Telemecus linked to and I am confused?

I haven't at all really looked at the mechanic of ROF yet, sorry but I didn't find an answer above so then what does -10 mean or any other different positive numbers actually determine?

Is it effecting first to fire during the phase or once only as a negative, but multiple times as a positive or just later in the fire phase as a high positive of 60+, in example linked above?

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 2:20:03 PM

Crackaces

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Dinglir:

quote:

I am not sure the RoF works as described though (that having 12 RoF will mean 12 shots taken). I think it is more of a modifier, which will affect the chance of the gun taking another shot. Something like: Gun will take another shot if random(x)*Previous shots < 10 + RoF.

So the German LeFH 18 105mm gun with a RoF of seven would get a second shot if random(x) < 17 and a third shot if random(x) < 8.5.

Meanwhile the 20mm Quad (FlakVierling, I think it's nicknamed) with a Rof of 400 would automaticaly get 40 shots off before even a roll of 10 would stop it from firing again. Quite deadly against infantry in the open.

This also fits the guns with a negative RoF. The German 600mm Geraet 040 mortar has a RoF of -10, making it impossible for that gun to get off more than one shot pr combat if using the above formula. If simply assuming the RoF is the number of shots taken in combat, this gun would never fire.

All this is obviously just guesswork on my part, since I have no idea what the actual formulas behind the game code is.

As for using AA in ground roles, the Germans especially excelled in this capacity designing most of their AA guns with optics and low enough traverse to be used in ground roles. The obvious example is the 88mm gun, but most other AA guns were used this way as well.

So a -10 gets one shot off at the beginning of the firepower phase and nothing more. (which is what happens). A -6 ROF would have some small chance of a second shot.

Offense is always the first to fire and uses the longest ranged device. Then the defense uses their longest ranges devices range closes to offenses next longest ranged device until one of three things happen.

1. range = 0 infantry exchange pleasantries and CV is calculated. Attacker needs undisrupted units CV compared to defense undisrupted units CV 2:1.

2. Attacker CV threshold goes below some secret and likely random number, and the attack stops. This can occur well beyond the minimum range. "Defender scouted" is one such result but I have seen other types of attacks just stop at very long ranges.

3. Defender CV threshold goes below some secret and likely random number, and the defender starts withdrawing early in the firepower phases.

Then there is a counterattack result. What it looks like to me on high message level is that the defender turns into the attacker and gets in additional firepower rounds.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 2:42:27 PM

morvael

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quote:

As for using AA in ground roles, the Germans especially excelled in this capacity designing most of their AA guns with optics and low enough traverse to be used in ground roles. The obvious example is the 88mm gun, but most other AA guns were used this way as well.

It was natural medium AA guns were good in AT role, take for example Soviet 85mm. There are only the following problems to solve:
a) crew must be trained to do this
b) those guns take very long to change from transport position to firing position
c) those gus are tall, making them impossible to hide and easy to destroy

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 3:35:54 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

quote:

As for using AA in ground roles, the Germans especially excelled in this capacity designing most of their AA guns with optics and low enough traverse to be used in ground roles. The obvious example is the 88mm gun, but most other AA guns were used this way as well.

It was natural medium AA guns were good in AT role, take for example Soviet 85mm. There are only the following problems to solve:
a) crew must be trained to do this
b) those guns take very long to change from transport position to firing position
c) those gus are tall, making them impossible to hide and easy to destroy

We had a long discussion about this in the OKH AAR of the 8MP game. I always knew AA guns were used ad hoc or in emergencies in ground roles. But what surprised on the German side was this was doctrine. They even manufactured special ground combat munitions for the ground role for their anti aircraft guns. From a doctrine perspective I do not think you should plan to use expensive quad cannon on infantry say. To shoot down an expensive plane yes. For an 88mm to shoot an expensive tank yes. But to shoot the cheapest opponents of all with the most expensive means - that does not make sense. Why then were they called anti aircraft guns at all - properly they should have been called multi-purpose cannon?

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 8:16:47 PM

Saulust

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The Germans have used their Flak guns doctrinally in the ground direct fire role since the Battle of Cambrai at the end of 1917!

TBH I too used to think it was just the 88s they primarily or regularly employed this way, although I've read that they used air bursting 88s against enemy troops in swampy ground for best effect against them. However, I also have read enough 1st person witness accounts of them using quads quite in particular regularly enough against enemy infantry in the open to not be surprised they did that with them not just in emergencies. Plus I've seen multiple films of the Germans use their mounted single barrel AA guns directly too.

I read many accounts in a collective book called Infantry Aces off the top of my head of a lot of those direct fire supporting AA guns, be they 88s or quad 20mms, a number mentioned their nasty effect on the enemy infantry too.

I think an important unit to recall or look at is the original General Hermann Goering Flak ground unit which specialised in a ground support role from the Polish campaign, the Netherlands and into Barbarossa assigned to 1st Pz Group.

I think this is represented in 1st PzG HQ by the two GG (General Goering) Flak Btlns;

I/GG LW light Flak Btln
IV/GG LW heavy Flak Btln

I don't have much on it myself but you might find some deeper material on them somewhere, since in its earlier days it was basically the original parent formation of all the Falschirmjager!

Oh Telemecus, lastly the ground fire AA ammo was cheaper than their AA stuff AIUI!

< Message edited by Saulust -- 5/6/2019 8:19:02 PM >

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 8:35:51 PM

Telemecus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
lastly the ground fire AA ammo was cheaper than their AA stuff AIUI!

Oh yes that is a very good point! Also in this video you will see they mention they had a setting for a lower rate of fire in the ground role. So those are two ways of making it economical while still effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48zE-hRAYEA

This video was found by timmyab and was the one that made me realise it was not ad hoc but doctrine to use AA guns in the ground role. Yet for years reading military history I never really heard of this. Apart from the 88mm anti tank capability of course.

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 5/6/2019 9:46:02 PM

Saulust

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I'd just like to add that those GG Flak Btlns ultimately became the HG PzD... so quite the prolific grandfathering formation don't you think? Up there with Das Reich in terms of lineage, see link.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/ArtillerieLW.htm

I meant to say the AA ground fire ammo was cheaper because I think it didn't require special or expensive copper (IIRC) shell case shrouding or some such, which their proper AA ammo did but not required for at least the AT rounds and may be any kind of smoke or HE.

Thanks for that AA video link, seen it during the decade, but nice to see again, especially while on the topic!

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RE: ? on Devices with Negative Rate of Fire - 6/14/2019 4:40:09 PM

Telemecus

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Could be a better answer by jaw in this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2680746 ?

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Post #: 10