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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 3:43:59 PM

Canoerebel

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6/20/44

Paramushiro: Here's the troops at Shikuka prepping for Paramushiro. Most of them are in the 30s and 40s. Am amphibious force HQ is also prepping. I'll probably trigger the invasion to coincide with the return of Death Star in a month or so.

P.S. But don't let this detract from the main question. I am very anxious for insight into how to deal with Erik's LRCAP tactic.

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Post #: 391

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 3:44:05 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I have 100 APA/AKA and good combat TFs there.

Why aren't you getting the APA/AKAs out? Seems to me they'd be a premium for other invasions elsewhere. The presence of them at Sakhalin suggests that you don't have other invasion priorities, should the enemy discover their concentration. Getting them out will serve notice that they can be re-employed elsewhere and possibly divert his attention from the Northern theater.

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Post #: 392

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 3:45:14 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

6/20/44

Paramushiro: Here's the troops at Shikuka prepping for Paramushiro. Most of them are in the 30s and 40s. Am amphibious force HQ is also prepping. I'll probably trigger the invasion to coincide with the return of Death Star in a month or so.

P.S. But don't let this detract from the main question. I am very anxious for insight into how to deal with Erik's LRCAP tactic.

Ah. So. Cross posts. Question answered re: the APAs/AKAs and the kuriles.

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Post #: 393

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 3:46:47 PM

Canoerebel

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The original plan was for Death Star to remain at Sikhalin Island to cover the invasion of Paramushiro and Onnekotan in about three weeks. In the meantime, DS escorted 500 empties to the "frontier" and was to return to Shikuka the following turn. But Death Star then reacted into the Pacific and took damage, forcing me to revise my plan. I decided it was more important to protect the herd of empties plus my crippled carriers. So the emergency overrode the original plan, which made sense at the time.

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Post #: 394

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 4:14:07 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What I'm worried about is that he sent 60 unescorted Judys against my base. Some of them made it through to drop on my ships. What would happen if he sent 500 or 1000 bombers and kamikazes against my shipping? I have 100 APA/AKA and good combat TFs there. He'd take heavy losses but so would I.

I agree that this is an insufficient data set but I'm pretty sure that Erik can employ this on a mass scale and succeed. So I'm seeking advice. Makee's suggestion is a great one that will be tried.

Chickenboy, I agree with your thoughts. It has been a successful operation at modest cost. It would help a great deal to have the upper Kuriles. My troops are prepping accordingly. The original plan was for Death Star to stay at Sikhalin until the invasion was ready to go in about three weeks. But Erik's attack and the reaction by my carriers mixed up the deck of cards good.

I went back a page and did not see any unescorted strikes - did you mean the Judys came in at a different altitude from their escorts and attacked by themselves while their escorts milled around without engaging?

He has a plethora of fighter aircraft because that is the current trend in IJ player strategy for the economy, but that means he has not devoted as much to strike aircraft. I doubt he can mass 500 strike aircraft for more than one turn, and he will lose a lot of them.

Also, if he is flying out of Hokkaido he may not have enough supply there to sustain a large bombing campaign. The IJ player is always short on supply and keeps a lot of it for the economy on Honshu.

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Post #: 395

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 4:23:06 PM

Canoerebel

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I got the impression that all his fighters were on LRCAP and none on escort. Fighters in escort roles get chewed alive, so if he'd used an appreciable amount as escorts, his fighter losses would have been dramatically higher. instead, the combat replay was weird - the fighter interaction was brief and bloodless compared to what you'd expect for 1,000 vs. 600. And then a fair percentage of the bombers, which should have been easily picked off, made it through and dropped with some success. IE, the picture painted by the combat replay seemed completely disassociated with what you'd expect to see when titanic air forces clashed.

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Post #: 396

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 5:09:47 PM

Chickenboy

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There's also the premise that uber-large air battles tend to overload the code. We've seen iterations of 'funny' behavior with massive furballs-at least in the past. I don't know if this was satisfactorily patched, but Devs have commented on the code not being able to handle some of the massive 1944-1945 airborne melees.

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Post #: 397

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 5:25:23 PM

Canoerebel

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I think that created problems back in the day - Greyjoy vs. Rader comes to mind. But I think that issue was resolved long ago. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure.

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Post #: 398

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 6:17:28 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I opened the game and gave it a try. A fighter squadron did accept the order to sweep Shikuka from Shikuka. I'll give it a try in modest numbers next turn.

I've also sent an PM to Lowpe for help. He has tremendous experience dealing with and trying out novel tactics.

Makee, thanks for the suggestion. It gives me at least some hope that there may be a counter.

You can always order them to, but they typically will not do so. Maybe if, when clicking, you click the any enemy LCUs themselves...

The other thing you could do - he's committing 1000+ fighters in one spot. Hit him elsewhere. Try to hold out until your CVs are back, and then throw everything at, say, Kushiro's Resources for potentially 1500+ Strat VPs. He's throwing left and right hooks. You should duck and hit him below the belt. It's war, ain't no rules.

I also think he's probably lucky to get that many planes to coordinate on a single day. That just doesn't happen for me, anytime.

Another thing you could do is move a few hexes E or NE of Shikuka, or even move towards the Kuriles (which IIRC are relatively undeveloped) - still within striking range of whatever bases he's using, but if he's setting LRCAP to aid in his naval strikes then he has to target that hex. Just move out of it and his LRCAP disappears. You're still free to set your own LRCAP over your TFs.

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Post #: 399

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 6:18:12 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What I'm worried about is that he sent 60 unescorted Judys against my base. Some of them made it through to drop on my ships. What would happen if he sent 500 or 1000 bombers and kamikazes against my shipping? I have 100 APA/AKA and good combat TFs there. He'd take heavy losses but so would I.

I agree that this is an insufficient data set but I'm pretty sure that Erik can employ this on a mass scale and succeed. So I'm seeking advice. Makee's suggestion is a great one that will be tried.

Chickenboy, I agree with your thoughts. It has been a successful operation at modest cost. It would help a great deal to have the upper Kuriles. My troops are prepping accordingly. The original plan was for Death Star to stay at Sikhalin until the invasion was ready to go in about three weeks. But Erik's attack and the reaction by my carriers mixed up the deck of cards good.

I went back a page and did not see any unescorted strikes - did you mean the Judys came in at a different altitude from their escorts and attacked by themselves while their escorts milled around without engaging?

He has a plethora of fighter aircraft because that is the current trend in IJ player strategy for the economy, but that means he has not devoted as much to strike aircraft. I doubt he can mass 500 strike aircraft for more than one turn, and he will lose a lot of them.

Also, if he is flying out of Hokkaido he may not have enough supply there to sustain a large bombing campaign. The IJ player is always short on supply and keeps a lot of it for the economy on Honshu.

Any limitation on number of strike craft able to be brought to bear is on the number of groups, not on the actual production of the IJ player per se.

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Post #: 400

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 8:49:58 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What I'm worried about is that he sent 60 unescorted Judys against my base. Some of them made it through to drop on my ships. What would happen if he sent 500 or 1000 bombers and kamikazes against my shipping? I have 100 APA/AKA and good combat TFs there. He'd take heavy losses but so would I.

I agree that this is an insufficient data set but I'm pretty sure that Erik can employ this on a mass scale and succeed. So I'm seeking advice. Makee's suggestion is a great one that will be tried.

Chickenboy, I agree with your thoughts. It has been a successful operation at modest cost. It would help a great deal to have the upper Kuriles. My troops are prepping accordingly. The original plan was for Death Star to stay at Sikhalin until the invasion was ready to go in about three weeks. But Erik's attack and the reaction by my carriers mixed up the deck of cards good.

I went back a page and did not see any unescorted strikes - did you mean the Judys came in at a different altitude from their escorts and attacked by themselves while their escorts milled around without engaging?

He has a plethora of fighter aircraft because that is the current trend in IJ player strategy for the economy, but that means he has not devoted as much to strike aircraft. I doubt he can mass 500 strike aircraft for more than one turn, and he will lose a lot of them.

Also, if he is flying out of Hokkaido he may not have enough supply there to sustain a large bombing campaign. The IJ player is always short on supply and keeps a lot of it for the economy on Honshu.

Any limitation on number of strike craft able to be brought to bear is on the number of groups, not on the actual production of the IJ player per se.

My estimate is that he has not manufactured large numbers of strike aircraft, and therefore the losses suffered by the Judys will give him pause. I said nothing about not being able to get them to strike. He just doesn't have them IMO.

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Post #: 401

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 8:54:37 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think that created problems back in the day - Greyjoy vs. Rader comes to mind. But I think that issue was resolved long ago. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure.

The issue was that the Air Combat AI was only allowing about 100 "meetings" of aircraft ( I assume that each time a CAP aircraft met an enemy aircraft a meeting was counted). I think MichaelM adjusted that to allow at least a thousand meetings, maybe more. But if the limit was a thousand then the number of fighters in the air in your game could have exceeded that and caused the same tendency for strike aircraft to get through despite the odds.

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Post #: 402

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 9:01:33 PM

Canoerebel

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For anyone just checking in and not familiar with the long discussion that's transpired today: I'm looking for input as to how to counter a tactic that I think Erik might be employing and that I think could possibly nerf CAP. This is only an educated guess, but it's a pretty good one. And I don't have time to monkey around with theories or experimentation because, if I'm right, then Erik may be about to hammer my fleet in ways that could unhinge the game.

To summarize: I think Erik posted more than 1,000 fighters on LRCAP over Shikuka. He then sent in a modest number of strike aircraft (perhaps 60) without escort. The resulting air clash was very odd - it was brief and did minimal damage. It was as is his LRCAP "froze" my fighters without either side engaging in serious combat. The sobering part was that his handful of strike aircraft then managed to penetrate and score hits on three xAK in port.

My fear is that if he can effectively freeze my CAP by employing massive LRCAP, what happens when he sends in 200 or 500 strike aircraft? By "freeze," I mean that the CAP and LRCAP don't interact properly, engage in minimal combat that somehow prevents the CAP from properly attending to unescorted bombers.

You'd think that if 1000 enemy fighters interacted with 600 Allied fighters, the combat would be sharp and the losses high. You'd think it would favor the Allies over Allied base. But in fact the losses were minimal - perhaps 60 aircraft for Erik, perhaps a dozen for me. That would be fine if it had been 200 aircraft vs. 75...but not 1000 vs. 600.

If any of you guys have experience with this and how to counter the tactic, please let me know. I've put in a PM to Lowpe, too.

P.S. It's possibly I'm not reading this right, but based upon my experience and what I saw transpire, my strong CAP was basically nerfed by Erik's tactic.

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Post #: 403

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 9:29:10 PM

Canoerebel

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6/20/44

NoPac: Here's an overall look at the situation.

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Post #: 404

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 9:39:35 PM

MakeeLearn

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He has a varied group of fighters. Where one is weak the other is strong.
Have you watched the combat to see what is exactly happening?

quote:

A6M5 Zero x 28
A6M5b Zero x 30
D4Y3 Judy x 36
J2M3 Jack x 67
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 100
Ki-84a Frank x 96
Ki-100-I Tony x 50

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Post #: 405

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 10:27:25 PM

Canoerebel

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6/20/44

I watched the replay pretty carefully but didn't take notes. It was odd, so I'm not sure how accurate my memory and perception were. It was not a "fur ball" kind of fight. The interaction between opposing fighters was brief and detached - like nobody was interested in fighting. That's what got my attention.

Some 1600 fighters in battle and take a look at the air losses.

Air Losses:

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 10:30:46 PM

MakeeLearn

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Looks like your fighters are flying through his fighters to get to his bombers.

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 10:33:14 PM

Canoerebel

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No that didn't happen either. The fighters kind toyed with each other and then, at the end, a modest number of Allied fighters engaged his unescorted bombers. They got most of them but the fact that a few got through was startling. If he sent 80 and 10 got through, then the prospect of him sending 250 and 75 getting through is daunting. If that's a correct extrapolation (it may not be), he could wreck my combat TFs.

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Post #: 408

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 10:49:19 PM

MakeeLearn

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I was seeing it as what got shot down.

quote:

But the effect was to soak off 98% of my CAP so that his unescorted bombers got through to drop

Such low number of fighters downed. Fighters of both sides just keeping each other busy.
Pilot quality of both sides equal, maybe... keeping the fighters tangled with no great numbers of shoot downs. If sweeping and altitude tactics don't work ,could just come down to numbers vs numbers to make a difference.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/22/2017 10:51:21 PM >

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 11:10:11 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
]To summarize: I think Erik posted more than 1,000 fighters on LRCAP over Shikuka. He then sent in a modest number of strike aircraft (perhaps 60) without escort. The resulting air clash was very odd - it was brief and did minimal damage. It was as is his LRCAP "froze" my fighters without either side engaging in serious combat. The sobering part was that his handful of strike aircraft then managed to penetrate and score hits on three xAK in port.

Without seeing the combat report, it is possible that them penetrating the CAP was not related to LRCAP. The "number of passes" issue was resolved after GreyJoy/Rader - years ago. In order to make any sort of actually educated guess, I would need to see:

1) the combat report text where it says detection time, time to target, and details for your CAP units
1a) the number of aircraft participating on either side
2) the initial combat animation screen showing how many aircraft were present at the start of the "combat" - sometimes there can be 15 planes on "CAP" but no actual fighting whatsoever because they weren't able to engage in time.

I doubt that's the case here, knowing your habits, but it could be.

I also doubt that his intent is to exploit any kind of hypothetical loophole in the air combat code, although if in reality a 60-Judy raid with 1000+ fighter "escort" did occur... wouldn't those 1000 fighters tie up yours well enough for the bombers to get through? And honestly, even if this were occurring... unless the trade would be more than 2:1 in your favor, no combat would actually benefit you in VP terms - the bombers would get through regardless with those numbers involved, and you'd also have to make up the difference of any sub-2:1 ratio air losses.

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Post #: 410

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 11:12:15 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

No that didn't happen either. The fighters kind toyed with each other and then, at the end, a modest number of Allied fighters engaged his unescorted bombers. They got most of them but the fact that a few got through was startling. If he sent 80 and 10 got through, then the prospect of him sending 250 and 75 getting through is daunting. If that's a correct extrapolation (it may not be), he could wreck my combat TFs.

My experience with LRCAP, especially at very long range, is that they don't engage for very long. So even if it showed "50" Franks (or whatever) in the animation, not all of those may have actually been able to fight.

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Post #: 411

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/22/2017 11:16:35 PM

Canoerebel

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I'll post the complete report tomorrow, to try to give you the information you need.

I don't think he's exploiting anything - I think he may just have come across something that's an oddity. It's something I'm trying to get on top of before it turns into a major issue (if it does).

You would expect some bombers to get through if you had 1000 fighters vs. 600, but you'd also expect very heavy fighter losses (especially for escorts).

I'm fiddling with the turn now. I'm incorporating some of the suggestions given here. I'll probably send the turn tonight and then we'll see what happens. Perhaps I'm seeing ghosts where there are none. Or maybe I've had a vision of what's about to happen.

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Post #: 412

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 5:08:50 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'll post the complete report tomorrow, to try to give you the information you need.

I don't think he's exploiting anything - I think he may just have come across something that's an oddity. It's something I'm trying to get on top of before it turns into a major issue (if it does).

You would expect some bombers to get through if you had 1000 fighters vs. 600, but you'd also expect very heavy fighter losses (especially for escorts).

I'm fiddling with the turn now. I'm incorporating some of the suggestions given here. I'll probably send the turn tonight and then we'll see what happens. Perhaps I'm seeing ghosts where there are none. Or maybe I've had a vision of what's about to happen.

Might be worth asking obvert what he thought of the lack of fighter engagement and whether he thought it was something to be resolved before continuing?

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 7:00:47 PM

Canoerebel

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Per Loka's request yesterday to see more info regarding what happened, here's the complete combat report:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 20, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 18
A6M5 Zero x 30
A6M5c Zero x 63
A6M8 Zero x 431
D4Y3 Judy x 21
J2M3 Jack x 75
N1K1 Rex x 20
N1K2-J George x 101
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 109
Ki-84a Frank x 140
Ki-100-I Tony x 38

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 57
P-39D Airacobra x 24
P-39N1 Airacobra x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 113
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
F4U-1A Corsair x 159
F6F-3 Hellcat x 114

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Brown

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 13 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 7 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 10 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 19000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 151 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 50 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 28
A6M5b Zero x 30
D4Y3 Judy x 36
J2M3 Jack x 67
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 100
Ki-84a Frank x 96
Ki-100-I Tony x 50

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 57
P-39D Airacobra x 24
P-39N1 Airacobra x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 112
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 17
F4U-1A Corsair x 159
F6F-3 Hellcat x 110

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y3 Judy: 18 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
P-39N1 Airacobra: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAK James D. Phelan
xAK Richard B. Moore, Bomb hits 1
xAK Phoebe A. Hearst, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Michael Casey, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-42 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 19 on standby, 15 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 28770.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (5 airborne, 11 on standby, 7 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 9 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 1 on standby, 1 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 12 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
16 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 15 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
26 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-20 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-96 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 6 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-10F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 10 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-112 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-321 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
8th PG/20th TRS with P-51B Mustang (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 5 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
23rd FG/118th TRS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/386th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 5 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/387th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
312th BG/388th BS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 5 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (2 airborne, 8 on standby, 9 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
18th FG/44th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 9 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Phoebe A. Hearst
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Michael Casey

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 414

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 7:06:39 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

I received this PM from an experienced and well-regarded member of the community:

You are correct in that Obvert just seems to be setting all of his planes to LRCAP and sending no escort or no sweepers. If he swept he would lose many more fighters than you as his zeros are not going to do much. And, I think if he sent in 600 attack aircraft it could be devastating to you. So, yes I would call this an exploit but don't know if there is a solution. The only thing I can think of is to base all of your fighters at a supporting airfield and then sweep with your Thunderbolts and Lightnings and LRCAP the base if you can do that. (May not be able to). If you can't then this is really an exploit and you will need to work it out with Obvert. My two cents.. Other solutions but not the best. If you have strong AA, just abandon the airfields and let your AA work over his bombers. I do this a lot and like to rely on the big Commonwealth AA brigades when I take a key base. I certainly would think about getting your valuable AKA and APAs out to there as soon as possible. The other tactic which I think is the best but really might be too late for that. Keep 1/4 of your carriers out of any operation and in a different theater. He obviously is leaving factories and oil centers undefended. I am a big advocate on raiding oil fields as early as possible in a campaign game. One good raids sends the message that he has to keep his defenses spread around. Raiding is very easy to do now with the last patch. I realize that this may now work for you as you inherited a strategic situation that you did not make.

One last comment. I think Obvert has found a good exploit but it probably is true that the death star in itself is a exploit. I know a lot of Japanese players hate it. So perhaps you will have to do a little horse trading.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 415

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 7:26:17 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

To recapitulate, for newcomers to this thread, here are the questions I'm asking after yesterday's odd air battle over Shikuka:

1. Was an unusual air-battle environment crated by Erik using uber LRCAP that somehow "froze" my CAP?
2. If so, is there a reasonable counter-tactic?
3. If not, has my CAP effectively been nerfed so that I have no reasonable means of defending my base?

I'm still gathering information. Even though I think the answer to #1 is "yes," I haven't approached Erik yet. I first want to fully explore #2. If there is a reasonable counter-tactic, then everything's fine.

I've sent the next turn to him (last night) but haven't gotten it back yet.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 416

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 7:46:40 PM

Drakanel

Posts: 253
Joined: 4/6/2015
Status: offline

I'll leave it to the experts to suggest possible counter-tactics.

But if it really is a game engine problem...
In my opinion, IF it really is a game engine problem then the best option is to talk it through with your opponent and reach a mutual gentleman's agreement.

Both you and Erik are experienced players, and long-time forum dwellers. I am positively sure you're both here more for the entertainment, rather than just the desire of of seeing a "Victory screen". As such, if it truly is a limitation of the game engine, talking about it is the best way. Clears up any possible misunderstanding.

With as much effort as you two are putting in this game, I'm positive you both want to have fun and win because of ability and planning, not because of a possible game engine hiccup.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 417

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 8:09:56 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

To recapitulate, for newcomers to this thread, here are the questions I'm asking after yesterday's odd air battle over Shikuka:

1. Was an unusual air-battle environment crated by Erik using uber LRCAP that somehow "froze" my CAP?
2. If so, is there a reasonable counter-tactic?
3. If not, has my CAP effectively been nerfed so that I have no reasonable means of defending my base?

I'm still gathering information. Even though I think the answer to #1 is "yes," I haven't approached Erik yet. I first want to fully explore #2. If there is a reasonable counter-tactic, then everything's fine.

I've sent the next turn to him (last night) but haven't gotten it back yet.

The only counter-tactic I can think of is to vary whether the ships are disbanded (port strike targets) or in a TF (Naval Strike targets). The latter would make them harder to hit if they are not docked but might delay any port assistance with fire fighting until end of turn if they do get hit.
I still say if his fighters mill around and your fighters kill 80% of his strikes he will either nerf his bombing power for the rest of the game or stop his strikes to lick his wounds. Bring in some chicken-feed targets if you have some nearby.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 418

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 10:04:02 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Erik sent this with the new turn: "That last turn was strange. I didn�t expect such short combats with so many planes in the air, and it reminded me of the earlier sweeps. Cooperation on sweeps and escort apparently can be a bad thing if there are too many planes involved! Reminds me of some of the Rader_GJ issues with late game. Not sure there would be anything to do anyway, but I�ll keep working at new tactics regardless."

I offered this in reply:That last turn left me in spasms of doubt and uncertainty. I wasn't sure what was happening. My best guess was that you had used a massive LRCAP that for some reason seemed to "freeze" my CAP into inaction. My imagination ran wild as to what this might mean for the future, so I turned to the Forum (the readers of my AAR) and asked if anyone had encountered something like this before and whether there were any counter-tactics. To this point, I've gotten mostly puzzled looks, scratching of chins, and a few ideas that may or may not have any relevance whatsoever. I even sent a PM to Lowpe inviting him to take a look and offer his thoughts. He hasn't replied. Perhaps his thinking is, "You think you got problems?"

I'm worried that we've stumbled into something that just doesn't work - perhaps something along the lines that you're referring to (GJ/Rader, which I also mentioned in my AAR). I hope not.

The meaning of your comment "Not sure there would be anything to do anyway, but I'll keep working at new tactics regardless" wasn't clear to me, presumably because I am not sufficiently oriented in time or space to comprehend plain English.

We've a pretty interesting and novel situation in our game. Tense and fun and tough. I'm seeking ideas and strategies and answers and I know you're doing the same. As long as tactics have reasonable countermeasures, that's what the game is all about. What I fear is something that is beyond the capability of the engine so that there aren't reasonable countermeasures. I don't know that's where we are but it's what got my attention. Isn't that what ultimately derailed GJ/Rader, and on similar terrain?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 419

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 12/23/2017 10:46:30 PM

MakeeLearn

Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

Those look like some long "Time for all group planes to reach interception", at least to what Iam used to seeing. Is it unrealistic to expect both sides to meet like a football kickoff?

A high number of planes that "vectored on to bombers"?

You shot down most of the bombers?

Would the primary mission be, to get the enemy bombers not the fighters?

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 12/23/2017 11:01:32 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 420