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Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario

 
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Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/27/2017 6:40:22 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline 		This is an embarrassing predicament but I've played the 1st Training Scenario a number of times and am not getting any closer to taking the victory condition squares.

In my eyes there aren't enough turns to take the building hexes.

This really is perplexing because the training manual suggests that there are more than enough turns to complete the objectives. The manual even suggests that you don't need double time.
Let us use Move type of movement - since we have 7 turns its plenty of time to get to the scenario objectives.

The training manual suggests bypassing the enemy to the west, which I have tried but I still am in range of enemy machine guns. The more I try rushing through the more broken I get. The more I play patient the more I run out of time.

The training manual does make a suggestion upon taking 1st fire.
It seems I have run into an enemy opposition in hex 3,19 and if I don’t engage the American units in that hex; the American leader and the squad could trigger defensive fire while my units are moving in the Movement Segment. This is something I’m trying to avoid, so I’m going to engage the enemy hex 3,19 with my units in hex 1,23.
In observing this, the enemy would be positioned in the open to be at hex 3, 19. I've not seen this before. The enemy has always wisely stayed concealed in the woods.

This is about where the training advice from the manual says good luck and leaves you to sort everything out.

To me it almost appears that a dumbing down of the AI is crucial to winning this very 1st training mission. Without the enemy leaving cover it becomes somewhat of a stalemate.

What I am wondering is whether any of you has beaten the AI in this scenario (Training Scenario 1) in this game's current patched state?

If you have beat this recently I am wondering what it is that I'm doing dreadfully wrong. If not I am wondering how many mismatched scenarios might be expected.

I am really wanting to give this game a good chance as there are very limited games out there that falls in this niche, it just seems that there are a lot of missing pieces.

< Message edited by immped64 -- 12/27/2017 6:46:34 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/27/2017 7:16:14 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		The AI is already dumb enough.

Stay out of the MMG firing arc.

In the first move, make three or four stacks with a leader: it will provide you a movement bonus (and most German leaders will also provide a fire bonus).

Initially, move in your movement segment and fire in the Advancing Segment (at half effectiveness), then fire at full effect in the Defensive fire segment. Don't forget to fire at long range: you have few fire factors, but the Americans have lousy cover and you have the leader bonuses on your side. Chances are slim, but you don't have to pay for bullets (and infantry squads will never malfunction).

When the SS squads (range 5) arrive at 5 hexes from the Americans start firing in the Fire segment and blast them (the AI won't fire bewyond 4 hexes: isn't it nice to have a pacifist AI? ).

If you have to move in a hex under enemy fire, use the "Assault" option in the movement segment: you will only move 1 hex, but you will also be less vulnerable to enemy fire.

Shoot on broken units, to keep them in "Broken+" status (rallying them will be harder).

Double-timing should come handy to reach the farthest VP.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 2
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/27/2017 11:16:38 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline 		UP844: I started up a game and tried some of your suggestions. My biggest surprise was that you can actually hit the enemy before they can touch you.

I would like to stack the units as you suggest, but I don't see how this is possible. As far as I can see there isn't any adjustment allowed in the setup phase. Also, it seems to mess things up if I move a leader stack on another unit and try moving from that point.

Thanks for your suggestions; it appears that I have a ways to go on discovering the best options available.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 3
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/27/2017 11:50:13 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		Have the units you want to stack move in the same hex at the end of the first turn (maximum 3 squads + 1 leader per hex).

In your second turn, select all the units in the stack: you will then be able to move them as a single unit (they will also take fire as a single unit, so be careful and avoid non-assault movement in hexes where you can be fired at).

Leaders must be with the units they are moving with at the start of the movement segment to provide their movement bonus.

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 4
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/28/2017 5:37:00 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline 		UP844: Yes that does make sense in what you say. I was just wondering whether I might not have uncovered a way to move units around in the setup phase. I've tried as you've suggested. When I think I might get in the line of fire I typically split off a squad to see if the coast is clear.

After a number of failures I finally got a win. Yeay! The strange thing was that I did much better the try before. I wiped out the entire American force. Unfortunately I discovered to late that there was a victory hex further to the top of the screen, and I had a draw. In my win I had numerous broken units and the Americans still were holding on with their MG unit and other scattered pockets.

Training scenario 2 was rather anticlimactic. It was easy to knock the Germans back in droves. The AI stacked their squads high and occasionally ventured to open ground where they were easy victims. The new element was an anti tank ordnance. It appears that this has limited rounds as after the 2nd or 3rd turn it wasn't working anymore.

I'm still trying to figure out a couple things.

One oddity is Line Of Sight. In both Training Scenario 1 and 2 the American MMG had quite an unexplainable blind spot. I would consider this odd because it appears that in a normal circumstance hexes of woods and fields don't appear to impede line of sight.

Another oddity is weapon range. Even with the ASL counter mod I can't figure out what truly constitutes maximum range. It would be nice if the game would display what maximum range is.

Going back to the quandary of line of sight; it would be nice if you could click on a hex to determine from that hex what units have line of sight on that hex. (It would be great for planning an attack avenue).

All things said; I really do enjoy this game. This is something that I wish was out many years ago. I'm not into fancy 3d graphics, it just seems to make things even more confusing. I love a 2D tactical style game, and this does remind me of the old board game days.

Thanks for pointing out what I failed to see with range. It now makes this a lot of fun.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 5
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/28/2017 6:03:55 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		If some or all of your units can be set up before the game, they wouldn't be on the map at start and setup hexes are highlighted with their color (German = light blue, American = light green, etc..). The ability to set up troops is set up during scenario creation and cannot be modified by players.

As for detaching a squad as scouts, someone said "the entire art of war consist of knowing what's on the other side of the hill".

AT guns usually have a very limited amount of HE rounds: don't waste them on low-probability shots.

Unit range can be displayed (but I do not remember how), but this feature will only display normal range (i.e. the range at which you fire at full firepower). Units can fire up to twice this range with halved firepower.

As far as I remember (I certainly have forgot some), normal range for infantry squads is:

6: German & American 1st Line and Elite
5: British 1st Line and Elite, American 2nd Line, Russian SMG Elite (actually, Guards riflemen)
4: German Fsj and 2nd Line, American & British airborne, Russian 1st Line
3: German Engineers & Conscriprs, American Green
2: Russian Conscript, SMG & Engineers

Woods hexes block the line of sight (and provide a +1 defensive modifier); field, orchard and brush hexes give a hindrance modifier (+1 to hit/fire per hex) to all fire passing through them. The graphics for woods and brush hexes look very much alike, and this can be confusing.



_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 6
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/28/2017 6:06:25 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Hi immped64,

The game does display fire range, for units, weapons, vehicles (and its weapon systems)..please see section 4.3.3 Display Menu of the manual. LOS is calculated down single pixel level, so even a single pixel may block LOS.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 12/28/2017 6:07:40 PM >

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 7
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/28/2017 11:31:00 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		Click on the "F" button to activate the range tool (see attached image): a series of large white dots will appear on the map, showing the normal range for the unit or support weapon you selected (in this case, an American Airborne squad with range = 4 hexes). Leaders have no firepower, so nothing will be shown if you select one of them.

Some support weapons have no Long Range, so the range shown will be their actual maximum range: these are Flamethrowers (2 hexes), Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons (Bazooka, Panzerfausts and the like) and Light Mortars. For larger ordnance range is limited by scenario visibility and LOS, even though accuracy (the probability of hitting a target) will be affected by range.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 8
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/29/2017 2:31:13 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Hi immped64,

The game does display fire range, for units, weapons, vehicles (and its weapon systems)..please see section 4.3.3 Display Menu of the manual. LOS is calculated down single pixel level, so even a single pixel may block LOS.


Peter: I have noticed the white dots governing range; it just doesn't seem to directly associate with the actual range. I understand that the white dots represent full weapon strength at the shown range.

In terms of line of sight; by appearance on the map it just doesn't seem that there is a rhyme or reason why non clear hexes will sometimes block the line of sight, but other times not block it. Do you need to count up the amount of obstructions to determine whether there is or isn't line of sight? Perhaps I am just misreading the obstructing hexes which might allow line of sight due to height or porosity.

I did just notice that there is a line of sight tool where you can punch in a From and To combination. This will help greatly.

UP844: Perhaps the reason some of the weapons far exceed their given range is as you suggest. For larger ordnance range is limited by scenario visibility and LOS, even though accuracy (the probability of hitting a target) will be affected by range.

Still piecing things together, but it's getting easier to understand. Thanks all!!!

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 9
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/29/2017 3:02:49 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		Congratulations, you've just won your first mission (tutorial) and you're already criticizing Peter's gameplay.
Welcome among us!

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 10
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/29/2017 4:50:27 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		The white dots only show the normal (full effect) range for a given unit: the presence of a white dot does not mean the unit can fire into that hex.

What kind of hexes blocks your LOS intermittently? A large number (6+) of hindrance hexes (grain, brush, orchard) hexes. Grain and Orchard hexes are seasonal: a grain hex in winter is an open ground hex. In the upper right hex icon, "in season" appears if a seasonal terrain actually exists.

What weapons exceed their given range?

< Message edited by UP844 -- 12/29/2017 4:53:23 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 11
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/29/2017 6:53:20 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Congratulations, you've just won your first mission (tutorial) and you're already criticizing Peter's gameplay.
Welcome among us!


Yes; it was satisfying to win the 1st mission as it was a challenge.

Hopefully I am not being critical to Peter or the game. Picking up the game for the 1st time there are some things that aren't very obvious. The manual fills in some detail but to someone without familiarity to the ASL system which this game appears to revolve around there is a lot of the finer important details that are not defined well.

This is an enjoyable game, glad I picked it up.

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 12
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/30/2017 3:30:24 AM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

The white dots only show the normal (full effect) range for a given unit: the presence of a white dot does not mean the unit can fire into that hex.

What kind of hexes blocks your LOS intermittently? A large number (6+) of hindrance hexes (grain, brush, orchard) hexes. Grain and Orchard hexes are seasonal: a grain hex in winter is an open ground hex. In the upper right hex icon, "in season" appears if a seasonal terrain actually exists.

What weapons exceed their given range?


On closer look it appears that what I have been mistaking as woods have been lower brush all along. The full impact of this hit me when I played a scenario from both sides and observed what was visible and not. Sorry for missing this. This also minimized another issue in which I thought you could not do an ambush. No; you can't hide in a house or directly in the woods, but you can hide behind a house or the woods.

As far as range was concerned; initially this threw me off. I did not expect machine gun fire so far beyond the white dots. I'm sure they follow a prescribed range; it seemed that this was more than doubled, but I may have been mistaken.

Regardless; it helps considerably to have a good understanding of whats going on.

Thanks for your help!

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 13
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 12/30/2017 3:15:35 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		To see a machine gun range, you have to select the machine gun itself, not the squad that is carrying and operating it.



_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to immped64)
Post #: 14
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 1/1/2018 3:13:21 PM   
idjester

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Congratulations, you've just won your first mission (tutorial) and you're already criticizing Peter's gameplay.
Welcome among us!


Hey... I never critized Peter's gameplay... I guess that isn't the job of the President. Maybe Trump should follow in my lead.

Thank god for me!!!

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 15
RE: Stuck on very 1st Training Scenario - 1/5/2018 7:45:20 PM   
immped64

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/21/2017
Status: offline 		idjester: I watched your live Tigers on the Hunt presentation on New Years. I appreciate your informative videos.

(in reply to idjester)
Post #: 16
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