Axis AI seems awfully passive

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Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/14/2018 8:47:34 PM

sandman2575
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Playing the full campaign as WA, currently mid January '44. I'm in Italy but well behind historical schedule. 5th Army hasn't yet taken Naples. 8th Army hasn't taken Taranto.

Yet...

Turn after turn, I wonder if the AI Germans might offer *some* sort of active resistance. Not a full-scale offensive. Just a spoiling attack, or a feint, or an attack on a weakness in my line. Instead, turn after turn, Nothing. AI just constantly reshuffles its lines. It does a decent job of creating a solid defensive line. I've launched several attacks with multiple divisions that have failed to dislodge German units in a single hex. But what the AI **never** does, is attack.

This is, of course, completely unhistorical. Vietinghoff didn't just sit on his hands as the Allies invested Salerno and established a beachhead. Yes, Kesselring's overall strategy was to establish solid defensive lines while yielding the offensive initiative to the Allies. But the idea was certainly not 'never attack, under any circumstances.'

Is this just 'baked in' to the Axis AI? Its 'strategy' is simply (A) establish solid defensive lines, (B) withstand some attacks, (C) fall back and establish a new defensive line, (D) rinse and repeat.

I have to say, this creates a somewhat less than thrilling single-player experience, and I'm starting to wonder if it's worth continuing if the AI is simply going to keep forming walls, falling back, form new walls, fall back.

Thoughts, anyone?

EDIT -- I should be clear -- I'm not expecting miracles from the AI -- not expecting it to perform anywhere near what a human player would be capable of. I'm just vexed by the AI's complete avoidance of launching attacks.

< Message edited by sandman2575 -- 1/14/2018 8:52:02 PM >

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/14/2018 11:37:38 PM

Searry
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You shouldn't play against the AI.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/15/2018 12:19:56 AM

jack54
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Take a look at this Thread below ... it shows a way to help the (Allies AI) but something similar may help the German AI. Seems raising Moral will make it more willing to attack.

I haven't tried myself I'm still using default because I'm not very good.

How's the AI Thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4365255

< Message edited by jack54 -- 1/15/2018 12:21:48 AM >

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/15/2018 6:18:57 AM

JeffroK
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How many offensives did the Germans make in this period and within this scale, Ardennes......

Some of the local counterattacks are covered within defending against Allied attacks over the weeklong turn.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/15/2018 7:37:25 AM

zakblood
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the harder you make the game, eg the higher the level of difficulty, the better the AI plays, but tbh, once you get to a given point in any game, as it maybe where your at now, no matter what you do, the AI is acting the part and being passive as there's not much attacking fighting left in it, only defensive plays.

with no or little supply, leadership being all but mad, you can't hold anywhere for long, as no supply, no men, and little else, in the end, its a slow retreat back with not much fighting other than regard action and just holding where it can, with what it can, as look at the numbers, it's a one way and one side battle in most places.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/15/2018 9:51:11 AM

loki100
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As an axis player I'd not counterattack if the front was to the south of Rome and in the mountains. A defeat could unhinge your defensive lines and a win is hard to exploit. The constant risk is an allied player has set up a lot of GS, so if you attack you run into a wave of bombers.

Its also hard to trust the cv ratios as the Allies can add a lot of artillery SUs to any battle.

So when to attack? Well if I could cut off a unit, in reverse I lost an incautious armoured division to an opponent who took advantage of one of the retreat-pursuit phases. But I came close to breaking in to rescue the unit (if I recall the final odds were 1.9-1) and if that had worked he would have lost quite a lot of units as I was then behind his lines. Also you really need to be able to concentrate at least 2 Pzr Corps.

So its no real surprise the AI just defends, even as a player its a pretty fine judgement as to when to risk an attack. At the moment the WiTW code has nothing in it to reward a spoiling attack except maybe burning off enemy ammunition.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/15/2018 2:33:45 PM

sandman2575
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I appreciate all the replies and see that many of these are valid points. True that it would be hard for the AI to exploit a breakthrough -- although if it marshalled its forces better, it wouldn't be impossible, given the availability of some good armored formations, HG Panzer especially. I had also forgotten that the defender gets a sizable boost in number of SUs that can be committed, plus the Allies arty commitment bonus.

Again, I'm not saying the AI should be organizing some sort of "Wacht am Rhein" go-for-broke offensive. But the *complete* lack of any counterattack surprises me. German 10th Army strongly opposed the Salerno landing and almost succeeded through aggressive counterattacking with several divisions. In almost 30 turns now, I can't think of a single instance where Axis forces attacked me, in either Sicily or in Italy.

The 'the AI is wise to consolidate its lines and wait for the Allies to come to them' makes sense of course and obviously is historical. But it would be more credible if the AI didn't constantly shift its divisions all over the place. Turn after turn, I see HG Pz and 16th-SS PzGr (being among the more conspicuous units) shifted from one end of the line to the other. The waste in rail capacity or petrol must be huge.

I'm going to try boosting Axis Morale in the game settings and see if it makes any difference. (I believe you can change settings mid-way through a campaign, yes?)

< Message edited by sandman2575 -- 1/15/2018 2:34:38 PM >

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/16/2018 12:55:04 AM

GeneralDad
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Interesting. I have a different set of issues playing WA in the Italy campaign. The AI does counter-attack when I poke forces through an opening, though so far with little success. Thus the AI does seem awake to possible attacks where it can get 4 stacks against a hex.

However, the AI does not contest ground south of Rome at all. So I land in Italy at Salerno and Taranto and the AI falls back north of Rome and establishes a line. Then it is a slog from there. Thus, even though there are good lines between Salerno and Rome, the AI fails by not exploiting any of them, including Casino.

Also, the AI favors simplistic straight east-west lines over exploiting terrain and holding as much ground as possible. Delay before Naples seems like a good idea for the AI Axis since this would deny the WA a big port for a while.

GeneralDad

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/16/2018 5:20:51 PM

HMSWarspite
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You are doing really badly (or the AI is doing really well).You are at least 4 months behind history. The AI doesn't need to attack, and to be honest if I were playing the Axis in the position you describe I would be conserving my forces. you really need to be a threat before the AI needs to respond. Having said that, it does play fairly passively in Italy, it is a side show after all.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/18/2018 5:04:12 PM

GeneralDad
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I can see how the OP could fall behind history - if the AI makes stands rather than retreat then the game system seems so slow offensively that chipping away at the Axis line one or two hexes per turn could get very slow. In my Italy game the AI Axis seems to give up Messina easily and then falls back north of Rome when I invade at Salerno and Taranto. Depending upon where the OP invaded and how much of a fight the AI put up for Messina and southern Italy, then it would be easy to be behind history.

In spite of a fast start in my invasion of Italy, the grind north is so slow that I may well eventually fall behind history. Perhaps because I am still not fully understanding the fine points of upgrading air units and moving bases - my air force is slowly degrading as a result.

I wish successful attackers could always advance into a hex when they cause a retreat result. Not always is it possible to have reserves to take the hex.

Sandman2575: do you have a game save from your Italy invasion turn?

GeneralDad

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/19/2018 5:26:31 PM

sandman2575
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Seems to me, as someone who is not an expert player, that avoiding falling behind the WA's historical schedule in Italy is *really* difficult. I've done many false-starts trying to do the full campaign. I've kept my current game going because I thought I got off to a good start but certainly did fall behind the historical schedule for Avalanche. And that despite pulling my Amphibious HQs out of the Sicily invasion area pretty early to start building up Prep points for 5th Army.

Axis AI seems determined to strongly garrison Reggio Calabria with good German units -- Parachute Divs. especially -- as is unhistorical, so you cannot just ferry 8th Army over to the Tip of the Boot after conquering Sicily, as is historical. This will necessarily put you behind schedule for Italy invasion, or at least, it will if you haven't planned for this contingency from the get-go (as I did not).

I've stuck with my full campaign game, mostly using it as a 'learning experience' for a future playthrough. It's March '44. Naples *still* has not fallen. I am throwing *everything* at it that I can -- 6 divisions from 2 neighboring hexes, that have a ton of Corps support in terms of Engineers and Arty; Divisions in the rear set to Reserve; 3 Amphibious HQs offshore to get their bombardment benefit. Bombing the hell out of the place. A human player in the AI's position would be essentially impossible to dislodge. The AI garrisons Naples with rotating, random units, often just 3 regiments. But of course, the AI's Reserve activations that kick in whenever I launch a full attack on Naples means it has become a meat grinder. A Stalingrad on the Volturno, with Axis/Allies roles reversed.

@GeneralDad -- doubt I could locate that particular save -- I make very generous use of the "Q" hotkey to do quicksaves all, having learned the hard way after a few crashes (noooooo!!!!). So my Save folder for this campaign has hundreds of save files. I'll be curious to hear how you do in your game, though, in terms of keeping to schedule.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/19/2018 7:19:37 PM

HMSWarspite
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Do deal with reserves, you need to do diversionary attacks nearby. Do them first and use up all the actuations. (Costs casualties but then again so does Naples, and you need that port). You are only attacking Naples once per turn arent you? And bombing the units into next week every turn?

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/20/2018 12:48:58 PM

sandman2575
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@hmswarspite - does Interdiction give any penalty to Reserve activation? I'm bombing the units in Naples and have smashed the railyards and rail lines, and also bombing airfields, since the LW still has a nasty habit of intercepting Ground Support in force (really seems to be the only time it shows up, but deadly when it does).

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/20/2018 2:15:05 PM

loki100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

@hmswarspite - does Interdiction give any penalty to Reserve activation? I'm bombing the units in Naples and have smashed the railyards and rail lines, and also bombing airfields, since the LW still has a nasty habit of intercepting Ground Support in force (really seems to be the only time it shows up, but deadly when it does).

yes, its movement so you can get really badly caught out. I think its above level 3 interdiction, direct movement costs start to rise so the chance of a reserve reaction lessens in any case. But at any level, reserve reaction under interdiction will cost the reacting side - possibly very badly (say in N France in 1944).

To your second question, I have a suspicion that the AI might prioritise GS as its default mission. If so it will commit at the same time as you do and may well over-escort (its fighters not having any other demands on their attention), so you run into large clusters of Luftwaffe fighters.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/20/2018 3:33:36 PM

sandman2575
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Good information- many thanks.

Italy may be a lost cause for me at this point, but I think I'll press through to see how badly I can botch Overlord as well.

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RE: Axis AI seems awfully passive - 1/20/2018 5:35:30 PM

GeneralDad
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quote:

Italy may be a lost cause for me at this point, but I think I'll press through to see how badly I can botch Overlord as well.

I think I'd go back to the Italian invasion planning phase. Just my viewpoint. I have had success with Taranto/Salerno invasions. Another choice might be Crotone. Usually the AI leaves one of Taranto or Salerno open and I invade there, suck away the units from the other and both landings then go well. Also, once not stuck in the toe of Italy, the AI seems to pull back above Rome for me.

I agree that it is hard not to fall behind history - the inability to always advance into a hex where the enemy retreats really seems to slow down offensive operations. In my view forts are too weak and hardly an impediment whereas either the game system is too biased towards the defensive or the German army perhaps a little better than history in some way. The result is an almost always slow WWI style grind and no getting stuck at a Casino line or equivalent. And no reasonable advance rates to the next fortified line. That and units losing combat value so fast when they advance or move.

I did get the AI to make some mistakes. A push North by the British in the east lead to me being able to advance west with them while the Americans went north-east, I trapped a few regiments. Then when I finally broke out of the boot the AI left some units where I could surround them with armor. Even with these victories, I eventually fell behind history and never took all of Italy, even though I won the game in the end.

Best of Luck,
GeneralDad

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