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Modern Naval Wargame? - 4/28/2003 9:39:44 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		Is there any interest in creating a turn based, modern (Cold War) naval & ground wargame?

Let's say a conglomeration of War in the Pacific/Uncommon Valor and Harpoon (boardgame/not computer).

Disclaimer: I’m not looking for investors or programmers for a start-up opportunity. I am curious to see if there is genuine interest in a naval wargame of this magnitude and the realistic possibility of it being created. If so, maybe this could spark some development interest from Matrix. They are one of the very few companies out there that can do a wargame right (the first time). :)

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-----------------------------
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Post #: 1
- 4/28/2003 9:51:43 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Skick have you been to Wargamer lately, they have some naval enthusiasts as well.

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Post #: 2
- 4/28/2003 11:30:11 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		You should make more "diferentiating" poll.

For instance I'd say I am very interested in the late cold war game (such as Harpoon 4 should be, if it's ever finished), and almost completely uninterested in "modern", post-2000 naval game.

Oleg

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Post #: 3
- 4/28/2003 11:57:40 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		It's possibly an over done setting, but me, if I am going to play a naval game odds are it will have to be between 1930s and 40s to have my attention.

Modern warfare really doesn't have the appeal for me.

Today a carrier is really just a floating airbase to torment small nations, over an overly expensive target for a real military power.

And submarines today are really just floating nuclear missile bases.

Actions like chasing the Bismarck, or outwitting the Japanese at Midway are no more. And that is basically what I would expect in a naval game if I was interested at all really.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 4
- 4/29/2003 1:28:44 AM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]You should make more "diferentiating" poll.

For instance I'd say I am very interested in the late cold war game (such as Harpoon 4 should be, if it's ever finished), and almost completely uninterested in "modern", post-2000 naval game.

Oleg [/B][/QUOTE]

Good point.

Generally, I would have to assume that it would be geared around a Harpoon setting such as the 1980 during the technological peak of the Cold War. This would be a must for a long campaign setting. The smaller scenarios could be based on current or future scenarios. The other aspect would be any futuristic or hypothetical conflicts such as a “Blue Water” Chinese Navy vs US/NATO.

You wouldn’t have to worry about any production elements, only logistics. Imaging the scope of a Cold War World Theater with naval, air, and ground forces. Who cares about 3D eye candy and a real time sim if you could zoom out and zoom in to the brigade level of ground combat and track individual ships or aircraft as in Uncommon Valor.

If something in the scope of the Pacific Theater in WWII is being tackled, why not have a hypothetical Cold War gone hot. Maybe the poll should actually be a “Cold War Modern Ground/Naval Wargame?” Can a moderator change that heading?

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-----------------------------
"Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid."
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Post #: 5
- 4/29/2003 5:38:02 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		I don't think Turn Based would have much appeal, but most certainly there is interest in seeing a modern engine that is capable of real timing current technology and dealing with the past. Do up a good enough engine and you can cover all naval aspects back to the days of sail (ie: a sail is just another form of propulsion system that can be damaged by combat)

I'd personally love to see something like Harpoon II that covered everything from Jutland through to today at a naval level...

Time scales just don't work for me when you are talking naval combat, there should be no pause key (turn based) that lets you deal with the realities of commanding a task force. They didn't have pause when overloaded with information, so we shouldn't have it either. There's just something about having a Kirov battlegroup unload at you with everything under the sun and watching real time as those missiles come in at 1000 miles an hour+ and you have seconds to react before your entire fleet becomes a coral reef.

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Post #: 6
- 5/2/2003 5:40:19 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]There's just something about having a Kirov battlegroup unload at you with everything under the sun and watching real time as those missiles come in at 1000 miles an hour+ and you have seconds to react before your entire fleet becomes a coral reef. [/B][/QUOTE]


Or watching an Alpha strike come towards you! :eek: Or watching your screen fill with countless shipwreak missiles inbound towards you CV battlegroup....and knowing that you don't have enough defensive missiles left:(

Oh man those were the days!


:)

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Post #: 7
- 5/5/2003 2:24:59 AM   
DavidW75

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		For die hards I recommend Harpoon 3. Till H4 comes out:mad: I've always been interested in the air side. Imagine directing the air war over Germany. Any interest in that aspect? No reason you couldn't use the same engine.

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Post #: 8
- 5/5/2003 8:12:38 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidW75
[B]For die hards I recommend Harpoon 3. Till H4 comes out:mad: I've always been interested in the air side. Imagine directing the air war over Germany. Any interest in that aspect? No reason you couldn't use the same engine. [/B][/QUOTE]

That would be my dream come true game, NATO vs. Warsaw Pact (WWIII), real-time, Air, Sea, Land, on a theater (or global) scale down to "manageable" units and logistics.

What I mean by that is I don't want a Hearts of Iron abstract where units move in blocks of hundreds of miles. But, I don't want to be having to physically direct every plane, ship, and tank.

And yes, what I'm smoking is very good indeed!

Just PLEASE don't even try to add 3D graphics!!! That was the biggest mistake of Harpoon4's development.

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Post #: 9
- 5/5/2003 10:13:55 PM   
brent_2

 

Posts: 1990
Joined: 3/27/2001
From: Rheingau, Hesse, DE
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slick91
[B]That would be my dream come true game, NATO vs. Warsaw Pact (WWIII), real-time, Air, Sea, Land, on a theater (or global) scale down to "manageable" units and logistics.

What I mean by that is I don't want a Hearts of Iron abstract where units move in blocks of hundreds of miles. But, I don't want to be having to physically direct every plane, ship, and tank.

And yes, what I'm smoking is very good indeed!

Just PLEASE don't even try to add 3D graphics!!! That was the biggest mistake of Harpoon4's development. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with you on this Slick....I am also doubtful about the addition of 3D to harpoon - I don't think it needed it.

Otoh, the addition of new graphics to the display - better weather, day/night etc is what makes me interested still. I suspect I would want to play without using the 3D views...

A combination of UV and H2 would be perfect imho

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Post #: 10
- 5/6/2003 1:37:21 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		We are currently making good progress on our complete makeover of SimCan's Cold War battles in Germany game.

We also have work ongoing on thier WW2 tactical naval games.

Nothing is in stone, but The SimCan Cold War naval games are in the pack waiting in the wings to get their "ultimate make over".

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Post #: 11
- 5/6/2003 5:34:33 AM   
DavidW75

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		Yeah I can't wait till Flashpoint:Germany is done :D
I don't care for the 3d, but I would like some visual to set the mood. Video clips, audio clips are great, take Steel Beasts nothing like hearing artillery rumble across a valley, plus maybe a 3d model to view in an encyclopedia or unit report. I'll probably pick up H3 now since they pushed H4 back.

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Post #: 12
- 5/6/2003 5:41:36 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slick91
[B]
Just PLEASE don't even try to add 3D graphics!!! That was the biggest mistake of Harpoon4's development. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm... that particular decision most certainly wasn't the "biggest mistake" on H4 development. H4 development is so full of mistakes, wrong decisions, bad luck, and plain stupidity that to say 3D graphics is "biggest mistake" is just plain wrong...

BTW I love good graphics, be it 3D or 2D. Development time spent on a GOOD graphics in a game is never wasted IMO. Yes, I love incredibly complex games, but that's beside the point.

Simple games, complex games - they are all more enjoyable with good graphics. Nothing like seeing Kirov launch salvo of missiles in all their 3D glory. I don't want to play DOS-a-like games on my multi-megahertz PC...

O.

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Post #: 13
- 5/6/2003 7:49:26 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]Hmmm... that particular decision most certainly wasn't the "biggest mistake" on H4 development. H4 development is so full of mistakes, wrong decisions, bad luck, and plain stupidity that to say 3D graphics is "biggest mistake" is just plain wrong...
[/B][/QUOTE]

My point of the 3D being the biggest mistake among countless others stems from my opinion that if they had never bothered to include 3D they could have allocated much more resources to the hardcore elements and improvements from prior versions. If they had done that, then the game would probably already be out by now. The game would have been much further along in development every time it hit one of those crutial decisions of if to cancel it or not.

It is a fact that the first developer that SSI picked was fired because they were focusing on cute 3D eye candy such as moving elevators and little pointless details.

So, I take up your point that it is just plain wrong to say it was the biggest mistake. Opinions are just like a$$holes, everybody has one and everyone thinks their own doesn't stink!

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-----------------------------
"Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid."
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Post #: 14
- 5/6/2003 8:01:48 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		"Moving elevators" is too much and really pointless, even from my point of view...

But what I wanted to say is - I generally LOVE eye candy. Does that make me shallow? I wouldn't say so... I play incredibly complex and time-consuming games, I never quit my PBEMs unless in really desperate position etc. I am ready to swallow all the heaps of numbers and data any game throws my way, but I STILL want it to look NICE on my screen.

I appreciate effort developers invest into graphic side of their game(s).

I think there are many gamers that share my opinion re "eye candy" (they're not necesarilly here on this forum) and from the developer and publisher's POV it is clever to allocate resources to game graphics (2D or 3D).

O.

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Post #: 15
- 5/6/2003 11:32:19 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B...I am ready to swallow all the heaps of numbers and data any game throws my way, but I STILL want it to look NICE on my screen.

I appreciate effort developers invest into graphic side of their game(s).

I think there are many gamers that share my opinion re "eye candy" (they're not necesarilly here on this forum) and from the developer and publisher's POV it is clever to allocate resources to game graphics (2D or 3D).

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with your point. If a game doesn't look good, it won't sell good.

It is a hard call to make on a developer. It seems the majority of them think every game made these days MUST have a 3D element in the graphics department.

The war gaming market seems to crave detail and accuracy in the game's mechanics vs. accuracy and detail in the art and graphics.

IMHO, Matrix Games does a great balance of accuracy and graphical appeal. But, it seems you can always use more of both... ;)

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-----------------------------
"Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid."
-John Wayne

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Post #: 16
- 5/13/2003 2:01:15 AM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		I would be very interested in a naval warfare games that cover any period from Civil War era to 2003.

Some would say that the present day doesn't hold that much interest, after all there really isn't a navy in the world (or a realistic combination of navies for that matter) who could oppose the US Navy. However, conflicts between say, France and Britain, or China and Taiwan, or the EU versus Russia would hold some interest.

On a side note, how about an oft neglected period of time like the 1950's or 1960's. The struggle to resupply Europe during a ground war (ala the original Harpoon only earlier) would be quite a challenge. Maybe a PACWAR/WAR IN RUSSIA conglomeration modernized into the 1950's and 60's. Lots of potential hypotheticals!;)

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Post #: 17
- 5/14/2003 3:28:32 AM   
Kobe for Prez

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: New Orleans
Status: offline 		The Mississippi River Campaign won by Grant and the Red River Campaign won by Taylor have always fascinated me. Would love a game that covered the river warfar of the Civil War. Also have ALOT of interest in the 1895-1905 period. Lots of interesting gaming to be had there, Tsushima Straights, Spanish-American War to name of few.

Great point about the 1950's-60's! There's an area that probably has gotten very little attention. Something like the combo game you mentioned would be great.

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Post #: 18
- 5/14/2003 8:00:30 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Anyone from Matrix want to comment on this topic??????????

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Post #: 19
- 5/16/2003 3:06:54 AM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 638
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline 		This might satisfy you guys in the mean time.... [url]www.battlegoat.com[/url]

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Post #: 20
- 5/27/2003 6:58:22 AM   
SkidLid

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: Lancaster,UK
Status: offline 		I would be very interested in a pre-dreadnought era game.(Say 1860-1905).This period would chart the move from wooden walls to turret battleshjips,covering ACW to Russo-Japanese war.I'd lik real-time ,something like SSI's Fighting steel.That would be very cool.

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Post #: 21
- 5/27/2003 7:05:52 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkidLid
[B]I would be very interested in a pre-dreadnought era game.(Say 1860-1905).This period would chart the move from wooden walls to turret battleshjips,covering ACW to Russo-Japanese war.I'd lik real-time ,something like SSI's Fighting steel.That would be very cool. [/B][/QUOTE]

Russo-Japanese? Real time? Check this game out (not out yet)

http://home.austin.rr.com/normkoger/RJW.html

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Post #: 22
- 5/27/2003 8:15:55 AM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		I love the idea of a Russo-Japanese or any pre-dreadnaught game.

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SF3C B. B. New USS North Carolina BB-55 - Permission is granted to go ashore for the last shore leave. (1926-2003)

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Post #: 23
- 5/27/2003 11:02:53 AM   
SkidLid

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: Lancaster,UK
Status: offline 		Cheers U2!That looks great.The only Norm Koger game I've ever played is Age of Rifles,but I loved that,and thats what sparked mi interest in the Russo-Japanese War to start with!
Those screenies from the new game look great,I'll be looking out for that!

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Post #: 24
- 5/27/2003 1:30:07 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkidLid
[B]Cheers U2!That looks great.The only Norm Koger game I've ever played is Age of Rifles,but I loved that,and thats what sparked mi interest in the Russo-Japanese War to start with!
Those screenies from the new game look great,I'll be looking out for that! [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah I have quite high hopes for it too!:)

BTW Age of Rifles was just great. If my game CD was not busted I would still play it.

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Post #: 25
- 6/6/2003 8:39:08 PM   
showboat1


Posts: 1885
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Atoka, TN
Status: offline 		That looks like JUST the kind of game I've been looking for! Thanks U2!

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Post #: 26
- 6/6/2003 10:04:49 PM   
Von Rom


Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]It's possibly an over done setting, but me, if I am going to play a naval game odds are it will have to be between 1930s and 40s to have my attention.

Modern warfare really doesn't have the appeal for me.

Today a carrier is really just a floating airbase to torment small nations, over an overly expensive target for a real military power.

And submarines today are really just floating nuclear missile bases.

Actions like chasing the Bismarck, or outwitting the Japanese at Midway are no more. And that is basically what I would expect in a naval game if I was interested at all really. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you Les. WWII era naval games allow for far more maneuvering, tactics, and one-on-one ship engagements than a modern naval game would.

I would like to see the ship icons of Pacific General matched with the gameplay and complexity of UV.

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Post #: 27
- 6/7/2003 1:13:30 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Anyone from Matrix want to comment on this topic??????????[/QUOTE]

I did.

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Post #: 28
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