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In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame

 
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In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 9:36:21 AM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		Like many of us, I entered the world of wargaming a long time ago, at a time when computers were not used to play.
We pushed tokens on cardboard boards on the living room table ...

Squad Leader was the first tactical wargame I played in this context.
As for many players of this era, it was a real crush and gradually I spent a fortune by buying the boxes of Squad Leader and those of Advanced Squad Leader.

The personal life of each and the evolution of the leisure society have made it increasingly difficult to find opponents and then find the time to play a full ASL game.
So I turned to computer wargames that can do without adversaries and whose games are much shorter, more in line with our current way of giving time to leisure.

The boxes of Squad Leader and ASL have started to pick up the dust on my shelves and I do not leave them anymore today to contemplate the content with nostalgia.

When VASL appeared, I thought it would be the solution to finally be able to replay ASL games; Opponents available all over the world, all the time ...
But I realized that I myself had evolved to another way of enjoying a tactical wargame.
I did not want to spend as much time as before, I did not want to be forced to master all the complex rules that characterize ASL ...
Years of comfort brought by the practice of computer wargames had made me a lazy wargamer , who wanted the computer to handle all logistical constraints so that I focus only on tactics to deploy.

I think I've tried all the computer-based tactical wargames out there, from Steel Panther to Close Combat to more exotic things like Armored Brigade. The list is long.
Unfortunately, they all have something that does not satisfy me; the graphic aspect for some, the real time that I do not like for others, the absence of multiplayer ...

All these tactical wargames nonetheless have in common to claim a filiation with Squad Leader, the ancestor.
Thinking about it, that's what I'm looking for: Recovering the sensations I experienced playing Squad Leader, but on a computer, without the complexity of the rules, and against an artificial intelligence.

Simply nostalgia ...

After playing Tiger on the Hunt, which with its ASL Mod seemed to meet this expectation, I realized that a key factor was to take into account: the immersion in remembers. And for me, this immersion is primarily visual, therefore graphic.
And here, both VASL and Tiger on the Hunt do not satisfy me at all. Their aesthetic poverty is not enough to immerse me in my sublimed remembers of Squad Leader.

So I turned to game engines that would recreate the variety and completeness of materials and scenarios in the ASL universe while causing this immersion by their graphics qualities.

I naturally leaned first on the computer adaptation of my second favorite tactical paper wargames: Lock'n'Load Tactical.
I created for this system a number of Mods that went in this direction (see here), but for reasons that I can not explain here, I had to stop suddenly my work on this game.

So, I became interested in my third favorite: Conflict of Heroes. I discovered a computer game not finished, abandoned, deserted ... And yet looking more closely with enormous potential to achieve what is important to me (see here).

Its lack of facility for modding has condemned it against its direct competitor (Lock'n'Load tactical) and yet, digging a little in its architecture and accepting some compromises on non-essential elements (like the interface by example) it seems possible to turn it into a real gem and maybe even to make it a base for something much bigger.

I would never understand why developers spend so much energy, passion, resources to create computer warfare systems with such a high potential for evolution and leave them abandoned ...

An answer may have been given to me by a developer one day when he told me that he thought that old school wargame lovers like me (and maybe you ...) was a niche market at the time, inside a niche market.

The only solution in my opinion to get these games out of oblivion could come from the community of fans of this type of gameplay (that simulates the game on the table) by the production of free mods, made with passion for lack of professionalism, that will fill this gap in this playful videogame offer.

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 1:14:43 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Have you tried Panzer Command: Ostfront? It's a 3D game not look down board game.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 1/23/2018 1:21:04 PM >

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 1:40:44 PM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		Yes,

I tried all this kind of 3D games (from Theater of War until Mius Front without forgotten the Combat mission games...).
But if you read carefully my first thread, it is not what i'm looking for.
I'm looking for a game which (graphically) looks like old boardgames and in which I can play old Squad Leader or ASL scenarios as if I would be on a table against a human adversery (but in real, on my computer, against an AI).
This game does not exist yet, but some of those i'm talking about could be very good candidates with some mods.

< Message edited by maitrebongo -- 1/23/2018 1:42:30 PM >

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 1:43:23 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		must admit Panzer Command Ostfront could do with some of your great work and attention maitrebongo on the mod part


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Post #: 4
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 2:22:22 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		Les françàis parlent aux français.
1 - tu as fais un super boulot sur LNL.
2 - je n'utilise pas les mods ASL de TOTH mais je n'apprécie pas non plus que tu dénigres le travail de ceux qui les ont réalisés.
3-Conflict of Heroes ne possède pas un éditeur à la hauteur, mais je te souhaite de réussir dans ton entreprise.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The French speak to the French.
1 - you did a great job on LNL.
2 - I do not use the TOTH ASL mods but I do not appreciate that you denigrate the work of those who made them.
3-Conflict of Heroes does not have a publisher up to par, but I wish you success in your business.

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 2:55:03 PM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		Do not make me say what I did not say ;
it is not the work of the modders that is in question (or even that of the designer of the game), but by conception, the graphics of TOTH are too small and do not allow to have a visual rendering worthy of a computer game of 21st century...

It's a fact and it's a problem for the immersion conditions I'm talking about.

This is also the case on many computer wargames (to believe that they were designed in the last century, when computer screens can only show 800 px by 600 px picture...).

Sure, editor in CoH is a little bit hard to manage with, but once you know it, it is not impossible to do good job with it. The real problem is all the things that are hardcoded in the program (as usual).

< Message edited by maitrebongo -- 1/23/2018 3:21:27 PM >

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 3:17:33 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
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quote:

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

I'm looking for a game which (graphically) looks like old boardgames and in which I can play old Squad Leader or ASL scenarios as if I would be on a table against a human adversery (but in real, on my computer, against an AI).
This game does not exist yet, but some of those i'm talking about could be very good candidates with some mods.

Actually, I happen to know at least one game that fits the bill for a table top miniature war game. Not ASL, but BattleTech. Ever heard of it? Scifi, 31st century, mechas (has tanks and infantry too). Is still around and going strong. Claims about its death are greatly exaggerated. BattleTech has got a number of video games, and some of those duplicate the table top game. One available for free is MegaMek. It isn't official licensed product, but if you have ever played the table top game, you'll be at home with MegaMek soon enough down to the units and game rules. Official video game is expected soon, and it is bloody time!

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 3:42:33 PM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		I did not know this game. In any case it seems like a good game ...

I think that Lock'n'load tactical and Conflict of heroes are games that fulfill my graphic requirements as well as ease of play, an ergonomic interface and a convincing artificial intelligence.

They miss only the completeness of ASL (nations, units, boards and scenarios) to be able to play there having the impression to play a game on boardgame.

That's what i'm tryed to do with L'n'L (and I can't do it anymore...),
and this is what i'm trying to do now on CoH.

< Message edited by maitrebongo -- 1/23/2018 3:44:52 PM >

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 4:06:04 PM   
Red2112

 

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think the dice cam thing in CoH is real neat, and makes up for the steril gameplay of AI. No matter what, the overall gameplay and AI has to push you to want to keep on playing, and that´s what I find lacking in most games. Recently Frank Hunters games have been pushing me to play-on, and I must add there quite old now, but they have "that" ingridient in them that just clicks for me.

Visually "Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm" in it´s recent state is about the only game that I would call "up-to date" in that sences. Even in the boardgame realm, I only find the recent "Panzer Grenadier", "LnL" and "War Storm Series" to have maps even worth talking about, so even there you have shortage of imersion now day´s, to todays standard of course. Not to forget that NO AI is going to make for a real life player.

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 4:15:05 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		The main defect of the LNL AI is the absence of rate of fire which heavily penalizes the AI in defense.
The main drawback of COH is that with a simple truck that you roll in the back of your troops safe from enemy fire, you force AI units to reveal themselves and use all their action points.
In both cases, it's open bar for the win.
If you have to mix battletech and ww2 I recommend the excellent Silent Storm.

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 7:09:28 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

If you have to mix battletech and ww2 I recommend the excellent Silent Storm.

Some scenarios are plagued by bugs and AI gets stupid.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 11
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 7:58:28 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

Yes,

I tried all this kind of 3D games (from Theater of War until Mius Front without forgotten the Combat mission games...).
But if you read carefully my first thread, it is not what i'm looking for.
I'm looking for a game which (graphically) looks like old boardgames and in which I can play old Squad Leader or ASL scenarios as if I would be on a table against a human adversery (but in real, on my computer, against an AI).
This game does not exist yet, but some of those i'm talking about could be very good candidates with some mods.

I thought the sticking point was:
quote:

And for me, this immersion is primarily visual, therefore graphic.

Frankly, I don't see any immersion in a board game unless you come from flat land.

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All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 8:08:04 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

If you have to mix battletech and ww2 I recommend the excellent Silent Storm.

Some scenarios are plagued by bugs and AI gets stupid.

you have to stop playing beta versions!

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Post #: 13
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 8:22:24 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

If you have to mix battletech and ww2 I recommend the excellent Silent Storm.

Some scenarios are plagued by bugs and AI gets stupid.

you have to stop playing beta versions!

So GOG has a beta version of the game? Whatever, I'm not gonna buy it again from Steam or elsewhere

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 14
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 8:29:10 PM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline
quote:


Frankly, I don't see any immersion in a board game unless you come from flat land.


It's because you did not understand the purpose of my first thread.

I'm not looking for a game that allows me to simulate a battle (for that there are other games much better than simple adaptations of wargame with units in 3D); I am looking for a game that allows me to simulate a paper wargame (which itself simulates the job of a staff officer rather than that of a field officer).

A Squad Leader computer simulator somehow.

In my opinion, wargames require a dose of abstraction, but abstraction does not mean aesthetic poverty.

in my opinion, this is a great mistake in the design of many contemporary wargames (computer or paper) not to magnify the graphic aspect of the final rendering.

I know it may seem odd for those who do not care about this aspect of things, but I have enough experience playing computer wargames to find out what allows me to immerse myself (and I realize that only concerns me) in the gameplay that suits me.

I'm just wondering if I'm alone to love this kind of immerssion (this kind of nostalgia) in the past of wargames papers or if we are still a few (and in this case it's worth improving and sharing the work that I do anyway for my personal use).

< Message edited by maitrebongo -- 1/23/2018 8:53:36 PM >

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 9:41:26 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Panzer Korps is the Best!!!!!

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Post #: 16
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 10:30:35 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Not been made yet, many get are very good but not one yet has been developed that features all that's truly needed.

One day though we will get one which has everything you'd want or need in a tactical game.

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https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/23/2018 10:40:52 PM   
Cataphract88


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/5/2012
From: Britannia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

quote:


Frankly, I don't see any immersion in a board game unless you come from flat land.


It's because you did not understand the purpose of my first thread.

I'm not looking for a game that allows me to simulate a battle (for that there are other games much better than simple adaptations of wargame with units in 3D); I am looking for a game that allows me to simulate a paper wargame (which itself simulates the job of a staff officer rather than that of a field officer).

A Squad Leader computer simulator somehow.

In my opinion, wargames require a dose of abstraction, but abstraction does not mean aesthetic poverty.

in my opinion, this is a great mistake in the design of many contemporary wargames (computer or paper) not to magnify the graphic aspect of the final rendering.

I know it may seem odd for those who do not care about this aspect of things, but I have enough experience playing computer wargames to find out what allows me to immerse myself (and I realize that only concerns me) in the gameplay that suits me.

I'm just wondering if I'm alone to love this kind of immerssion (this kind of nostalgia) in the past of wargames papers or if we are still a few (and in this case it's worth improving and sharing the work that I do anyway for my personal use).


You're not alone in this, I have been looking for much the same thing for years.

Board wargames rule!

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 12:13:13 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Steam has that game that simulates board games on the computer and playing someone online. Maybe, someday, a game like ASL will be available to play in this manner. Tabletop Simulator

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Post #: 19
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 5:59:28 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Interesting post by the OP. Can't relate too well as board game number crunching and lack of human players never made the genre an option for me. Schwerpunkt's WWIIe was not mentioned as it isn't tactical. I still find the UI and the fact the game isn't finished yet annoying, but some may find a board game immersion to it.

Our best hope would be the next iteration of Steel Panthers, but don't think it will be reminiscent of board wargames.


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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 11:41:26 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
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From: North Carolina
Status: offline
If you like Squad Leader then you must have seen or tried Men of War: Assault Squad 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=P7mo7oz-P4M

It has a number of mods available.

You did not like it because of real time play or because it was not deep enough?

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 12:23:31 PM   
maitrebongo


Posts: 298
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		I like it,

But it is not in my quest list because it doesn't look like a boardgame.

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 12:47:35 PM   
pkpowers

 

Posts: 412
Joined: 12/12/2000
From: midland,TX
Status: offline 		look at John Tiller's Modern War ; plays tactical well - looks like a board game

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Post #: 23
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 1:08:35 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		Play memoir'44 online and becomes Colonel like me( I didn't never want to become General!)

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 1:58:10 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo
It's because you did not understand the purpose of my first thread...
in my opinion, this is a great mistake in the design of many contemporary wargames (computer or paper) not to magnify the graphic aspect of the final rendering...
I'm just wondering if I'm alone to love this kind of immerssion (this kind of nostalgia)


I played board wargames a lot during the 1970s and early 1980s and enjoyed the immersion as much as anybody, but I don't understand the issue here. TOTH with the SL/ASL graphics mods make the game about as playable as the original boardgame, including the many different tedious phases that may be lost on new players.

Is it simply a graphics aethestics issue? Perhaps the unit counters themselves could have more of a 3D thickness appearance and stacks of counters could "look" like stacks. Schwerpunkt games do this (see screenshot) and it really does make the computer game appear like a boardgame. More games could do this, maybe should do this.

Is it something more, like maybe seeing dice rolling on the map when combats are resolved? Not sure how a computer wargame can make itself more like a boardgame experience.





Attachment (1)

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RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 5:26:55 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

I'm just wondering if I'm alone to love this kind of immerssion (this kind of nostalgia) in the past of wargames papers or if we are still a few (and in this case it's worth improving and sharing the work that I do anyway for my personal use).

Number of people want to play old video games with the original hardware the games were made for instead of with the new computers and game console replicas that run the games under emulation. I understand you're looking for similar experience? Have you looked at Tin Soldiers yet?


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Is it something more, like maybe seeing dice rolling on the map when combats are resolved? Not sure how a computer wargame can make itself more like a boardgame experience.

I have some input regarding that. Move the counters around like Windows' file icons. That is, hold down the mouse button and drag the counter around 1-by-1 (maybe stack drag with right-button). Then play it with tablet and use its touchscreen instead of mouse

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 26
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 11:19:21 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
I have some input regarding that. Move the counters around like Windows' file icons.


No, better yet have a joystick controlled set of virtual wargame tweezers to pick up and move individual counters.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 27
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 11:36:04 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


Posts: 734
Joined: 3/21/2011
From: Okinawa
Status: offline 		the John Tiller wargames shoulf fit your research

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Post #: 28
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/24/2018 11:57:52 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		For my squad level fix I go with Panzer Command Osfront most of the time. Sometimes I go with X-Com; just about any of the originals and the new ones except 2. I don't like speed clear tactical games. I want to take my time and think about what I'm going do do and not be rushed to the objective in so many turns.

Ahhh the days of computer Ambush

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Post #: 29
RE: In Search of the Perfect Computer Tactical Wargame - 1/25/2018 9:38:00 AM   
Jafele


Posts: 737
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		My recommendation is CS Middle East. It has a boardgame feeling, an adaptative AI and a realistic turn based system. Not to mention endless scenarios and frequent updates.

If you like ancient world battles try Field of Glory II or Pike & Shot.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 1/25/2018 9:42:46 AM >

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