Mine Warfare

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Mine Warfare

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Mine Warfare

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Mine Warfare - 5/28/2003 10:47:09 AM

Snigbert
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline

Do you feel mine warfare is overpowered?

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

Post #: 1

- 5/28/2003 10:51:30 AM

BillBrown
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline

I think mines in your own large ports are right. I do not like the effectiveness of sub laid mines in enemy ports. Given the way that minesweeping works I feel they are too effective.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 2

- 5/28/2003 11:40:45 AM

Raverdave
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

I think that mines are just fine as they now are........any body remeber what they were like when the game first came out !

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 3

- 5/28/2003 11:52:33 AM

Chiteng
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave
[B]I think that mines are just fine as they now are........any body remeber what they were like when the game first came out ! [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that players do not use mines the way they were actually used. That is the problem.

Sub Captains didnt like laying mines. There is no promotion
track for such use.

Mines dont have a lobby

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 4

- 5/28/2003 2:01:33 PM

Fred98
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

I have no idea how effective were the mines laid by subs.

I use it in the game but sub laid mines are only a nusiance for my opponents.

But the fast moving mine layers are a different story. They can lay a large number in a small amount of time and get in and bug out quick.

They too are only a nusiance but seem to be more effective than the sub laid mines.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 5

- 5/28/2003 2:03:50 PM

CapAndGown
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline

I think the big problem is not is sweeping or laying them or even hitting them. I think the problem is there ARE JUST TOO D@MN MANY OF EM!

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 6

- 5/28/2003 2:30:00 PM

Raverdave
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cap_and_gown
[B]I think the big problem is not is sweeping or laying them or even hitting them. I think the problem is there ARE JUST TOO D@MN MANY OF EM! [/B][/QUOTE]

IIRC off the coast of Queensland alone some 16,000 mines were laid!

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 7

- 5/28/2003 2:37:28 PM

HannoMeier
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 155
Joined: 8/5/2001
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline

A huge problem is the lmited amount of MSW assets. If they are gone or nearly gone, mines will stay and interdict traffic too much.
I would vote for an automatic MSW reinforcement if the player runs out of them. (There should be some extra vesels availible in the USA or Japan if the front needs them)

Hanno

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 8

- 5/28/2003 2:55:28 PM

Drongo
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline

Posted by Joe 98
[QUOTE]I have no idea how effective were the mines laid by subs.[/QUOTE]

USN sub laid mines in the Pacific were extremely effective. For every 12 mines laid, one Japanese ship was sunk or damaged.

On the other had, the USN subs only actually laid 658 mines in the Pacific over the course of the war. The Argonaut in UV would exceed that total with ease.

Almost all of the sub minelaying operations were conducted well away from the operational areas (very few of them were conducted in the area of that UV covers) and they were mainly directed at the major coastal shipping routes and ports like Saigon, etc (IIRC).

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 9

- 5/28/2003 2:57:29 PM

Mike_B20
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 389
Joined: 2/13/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

I just wish my minesweepers would stop docking to sneak an ale while I'm not looking.

:mad:

_____________________________

Never give up, never surrender

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 10

- 5/28/2003 4:49:41 PM

AmiralLaurent
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline

In my opinion mines should disappear with time. Every thunderstorm day should have a 2-3 % chance to sweep a mine away from its mooring. The mine may even finish in the next hex.

For the moment, minefields only disappear with time in open waters, they should also be reduced in base dots and coastal hexes, but far more slowly.

Another problem is the lack of MSW, especially for the IJN. Only 1 or 2 will arrive as reinforcements after June 1942 if I remeber well.

Regarding subs, outside Argonauts, I use them for one minelaying mission when they arrive in Truk/Noumea, then they fuel and load torpedoes and patrol from here until they have SYS > 10, then back to a main port (Truk/Noumea/Brisbane) for repairs to 0 SYS and they come back again with mines.

I use DM and ML for laying defensive minefields.

There should be more accidents with friendly mines. And in WWII, they were a major threat for submarines, not in UV AFAIK.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 11

- 5/28/2003 5:59:23 PM

Raverdave
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Agreed...I am yet to see a sub hit a mine.....and I have been playing for a long time.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 12

Timing... - 5/28/2003 11:05:27 PM

JohnK
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]Posted by Joe 98

USN sub laid mines in the Pacific were extremely effective. For every 12 mines laid, one Japanese ship was sunk or damaged.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm guessing most or quite likely all of these were laid in 44-45, correct?

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 13

- 5/28/2003 11:51:48 PM

madflava13
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline

Actually most were laid earlier in the war when there were shortages of torpedos. They were fairly effective though. I don't know anything about offensive mine use by the IJN, but their defensive fields are believed to have claimed several US subs.

I think UV has it just right now (although I like Adm. Laurent's idea of degrading fields based on bad weather turns.) Don't know how hard it is to add that in, but that seems to be the most realistic answer.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 14

- 5/29/2003 12:57:13 AM

Drongo
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline

Posted by JohnK
[QUOTE]I'm guessing most or quite likely all of these were laid in 44-45, correct?[/QUOTE]

IIRC, the majority were laid mid '42 to mid '43.

The submarine crews intensely disliked minelaying operations.

By '44, the aerial minelaying was coming into its own, leaving the USN subs to concentrate on torpedoeing Japanese ships.

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 15

- 5/29/2003 1:00:22 AM

Nikademus
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

perhaps a mine counter feature is needed, similar to the plane pool, with a monthly delivery rate (in UV), in WitP, add it as a production item

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 16

- 5/29/2003 3:12:24 AM

crsutton
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drongo
[B]Posted by JohnK

IIRC, the majority were laid mid '42 to mid '43.

The submarine crews intensely disliked minelaying operations.

By '44, the aerial minelaying was coming into its own, leaving the USN subs to concentrate on torpedoeing Japanese ships. [/B][/QUOTE]

In late 44 early 45 Allied mines (mostly air dropped) effectively closed off the sea of Japan, drastically cutting off shipments of food and raw material from Korea.

I am not sure how effective mining was by either side during the South Pacific time frame of UV. However, I don't feel like mines are skewing the game. They are only a moderate nuisance and it is always fun to watch your opponent get stung by one or two.

Subs working in restricted waters should most certainly be banging into them--and running aground for that matter.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 17

- 5/29/2003 4:35:16 AM

Mr.Frag
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

The only issue here is the fact that some folks have learned the hard way the price tag for not protecting their Mine sweepers and loose them. As long as you have ships that can sweep them, they are no threat at all. I do truely understand the pain of not protecting your ships and not having any in the later stages of the game.

It would be nice if the game automatically donated 1 to your cause *if* and only *if* you loose them all, BUT there should be a high VP cost for this service to punish folks enough that they do not become careless (ie: bah, I'll go send my Japan MSW to Noumea, why not, i get them for free).

I also agree that mines due to the nature of the weather extremes in the area should have (a) a finite lifespan and (b) a greater possibility of friendly fire problems. You should be forced to use your own MSW guys to clear your own channels every now and then (perhaps after weather type thunderstorm). This may induce folks to not go into extremes with their use when they know they too could be subject to the 8,000 mines they dumped in the hex if not careful.

I would like to see any group that has a sweeper no matter what other ships are in the TF sweep as it goes without the silly DD's jumping out in front to help and eating mines. This is simply due to the fact that UV has no waypoints. Since mission routes are completely predictable without waypoints and there is nothing you can do to vary the path, it seems only right that inclusion of a sweeper should be a valid choice to offset this lack of pathing. (ie: a bombardment mission will always go directly from home port to target and back on the exact same route, since you know the exact route, it is easy to be able to over concentrate on this path)

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 18

Once again, ... - 5/29/2003 5:36:49 AM

LargeSlowTarget
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

... the issue I have with mines is that non-MSW ships of the escort variety are almost as good in detecting and destroying mines than the real minesweepers. If I lay an offensive minefield and there comes an unescorted AP or AK, it will hit a mine now and then. But if a DD/SC/PC/PG type enters a minefield, the sharp-sighted sailors spot mines as if these were carrying a sign saying 'Here I am'. And this works best during thunderstorms at night :rolleyes: Aren't mines supposed to float several feet below the surface? Then how comes that they are spotted so easily, especially at night? I've seen it so often that escorts detected and destroyed not one mine on occasion, but two, three and even four mines in a row - my minefields must look like swiss cheese after the enemies escorts went through. I always believed that non-MSW ships found a minefield the ordinary way - means BOOM. But this rarely happens in my games.

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 19

- 5/29/2003 5:43:14 AM

Oleg Mastruko
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]The only issue here is the fact that some folks have learned the hard way the price tag for not protecting their Mine sweepers and loose them. As long as you have ships that can sweep them, they are no threat at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

A-MEN, brother!!!

If you have MSWs and know how to use them, mine threat is greatly reduced.

I think mines are just right in 2.30. I'd hate to see their effectiveness lowered....

Good example is my ongoing game with Leo/Apollo. In our first PBEM, I (playing as USN) mined Leo's IJN harbors and sea lanes heavily, and he lost many ships (MSWs too, since they didn't have any bonus when entering mine hex prior to 2.30). Finally, mine warfare greatly influenced the outcome of our first game.

In our second PBEM (ongoing) we both pay VERY much attention to mine warfare (we both learned from our first PBEM), laying, detecting and sweeping mines, and, despite heavy (and I mean HEAVY) mining we lost only a DD, PG, and AP or two to mines (both of us, combined) in 5 months of campaign. I think this is very realistic!

I sweep everything. I suspect every hex to be mined before I send some valuable ships thru. I always send MSWs/DMSs in advance to sending BBs or CVs. You wouldn't know what shallow water hexes exist until you played Leo or me, and see them mined :o)

One thing though - I'd love to see mines more effective against subs. I have yet to see sub hit a mine.

As for sub commanders disliking of mine ops - who cares what they think? In UV they're being paid to do what we order them to do :)

O.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 20

- 5/29/2003 6:22:50 AM

madflava13
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline

I've seen AI IJN subs hit defensive minefields laid of Noumea on numerous occasions in earlier versions, but none since I patched to the latest version...

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 21

- 5/29/2003 9:02:55 AM

Mr.Frag
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

I have never seen a Sub hit a mine, and I've been clocking hours since 2.00 hit the stands. didn't even thing they could hit a mine.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 22

- 5/29/2003 9:23:38 AM

Chiteng
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]I have never seen a Sub hit a mine, and I've been clocking hours since 2.00 hit the stands. didn't even thing they could hit a mine. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have seen it...just not very often...like 3 times.

_____________________________

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 23

- 5/29/2003 7:14:39 PM

Sonny
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline

Only rarely (once or twice) before 2.30 - none after 2.30 arrived have I seen a sub hit a mine.

Mines are a disadvantage to the Japanese - they have no fast mine sweepers, so they can't get in and out under the cover of darkness when sweeping in enemy territory. The USN has several DMS which you can put into FT TFs.

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 24

- 5/29/2003 8:58:55 PM

Yamamoto
Matrix Hero

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sonny
[B]Mines are a disadvantage to the Japanese - they have no fast mine sweepers, so they can't get in and out under the cover of darkness when sweeping in enemy territory. The USN has several DMS which you can put into FT TFs. [/B][/QUOTE]

The player should be allowed to put MSW ships into ANY task force. Sure, the task force will end up going slower, but it should be an option. Also, DMS ships should slow down any task force to cruising speed (15 kts). There is no way they could run at full speed in a night bombardment group and still be sweeping mines, yet we have all seen this happen time and time again.

Finally, I have never seen a minesweeper hit a mine under 2.30 even though I’ve dropped thousands of mines. If I could see it happen even once I’d believe it could happen. Maybe the chance should be only 1/10 the chance of a non-minesweeper hitting a mine but there should still be a chance.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 25

- 5/30/2003 12:11:03 AM

von Murrin
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline

I like them the way they are.

However, I do like Nik's suggestion. I would gladly trade the unlimited mines for monthly transportable replacements just for the sake of convenience. I would much rather be able to cart them around and dump them at any base I choose and then lay them. I consider mines to be more of a nuisance to me than anything else because I hate having to micromanage the MW TF's. :)

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to Snigbert)

Post #: 26