RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3?

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RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/28/2018 10:12:26 PM

pnzrgnral

Posts: 145
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: El Paso, AR
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My previous joke aside...how about a tweak to objective preparation time? Preparation points advance a point a day to the best possible 100 points. I find this to be inordinately long, especially considering some historical examples during the PTO campaign. How to address this? Maybe linking the following on a given objective: DL, aerial recon, landing of (scouting) LCU's (good case for USMC Raiders, UDT's, Alamo Scouts), aerial bombardments/strafing (gun camera footage), naval bombardments. All of this would collect intel on the objective and speed preparation for those LCU's assigned to assault.

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Post #: 31

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 12:32:40 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
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How about linking this to strategic leadership. That would seem logical. The overall Theater leader would have access to all the various intel on various objectives obtained by whatever means and also would be able to reconcile that with future needs. Hate to say it but since the Japanese had quite a long lead time to plan their war plans (and then decided to commit sepoku anyways) Nimitz/MacArthur should be significantly better able to adjust priorities than Yamamoto et al.

(in reply to pnzrgnral)

Post #: 32

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 12:40:41 AM

spence

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While we are on the subject it would be nice if there was a scenario that didn't "gift" the sinking of the POW and Repulse and the taking of Wake Island to the Japanese. While I agree that the Brits/Churchill did require POW/Repulse to sail to their doom on the 9th of December 1941 it seems to me that the Japanese invasion of Wake was: a) scheduled with much too small of a force initially and b: was scheduled without any thought to enemy defenses (dumb commander) and c: the Allied commander has no hope of surviving until Dec 22 1941 because he'll run out of supplies (and the means to resist) long before that date.

(in reply to pnzrgnral)

Post #: 33

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 6:44:07 PM

Mobeer

Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
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Some ideas:

1) Refocus on the player as a theatre commander
Remove any and all functionality that would be far below the level of the player. For example:
- if a task force is to bombard at night on the 24th/25th, don't require me to work out which hex it needs to be in on the 24th, let the Admiral decide
- have regiment commanders automatically assigned, then if the unit fights well award recognition points to its commander. When a new Division arrives assign a recognised, experienced commander without any player involvement
- don't order a squadron to sweep enemy airfield with 40% of its planes at 12,000 feet. Order a base to use its air assets to aggressively gain air superiority.

2) Have higher level formations
Let the player combine units into Armies to carry out offensives. Let an Army be loaded into transports, fitting its units as best possible for smallest load space or fastest offload.

Let the player decide by region \ high level formation how aggressive to be, what types of enemy to target etc.

3) Better convoys and submarines
Let the player assign convoy routes, escorts, air cover etc, then automate their use. Essentially have a convoy command that takes responsibility not just for moving resources but also for deploying air cover and hunter killer ASW groups. Then for submarine forces, have an automated command to deploy (spare) submarines, and only have submarines in enemy waters report in every few days for new manual orders and contact reports.

4) More Planning tools
Have new planning tools to help the player. For example:
- Task force tools to identify when a convoy can reach varying ports, when will multiple convoys arrive at a port, compare multiple task force planned paths to see where perhaps my outbound carriers will catch up with and overtake their tankers?
- when will ships in repair yards be repaired? when will bases be repaired by (if not hit again)?
- what assault value is marching to a friendly base, or preparing to invade an enemy base?

5) Smarter Intelligence Gathering
The current system fails to represent data being built up over time. By all means keep the current reports, but add in recon flights, known facts etc to produce an intelligence picture.

So don't just tell the player on this turn that IJA 2nd Infantry Division is planning for Wake Island. Let the player step through the intelligence reports for the past month to see that no other units, not even a base force are preparing for that base. Let the player see that a recon flight spotted that division 9 days ago at George Town. Or perhaps there are 3 divisions and base force preparing for Wake, no IJN CV has been spotted in 2 weeks and an Allied sub attacked a large group of tankers heading east from Marcus Island yesterday?

< Message edited by Mobeer -- 1/29/2018 6:47:06 PM >

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 34

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 9:25:37 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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quote:

i think future wargames should have more randomness regarding commanders capabilities.

This should be taken care of in the combat algorithms. Knowing Grigsby and his games I would be surprised if it weren't.

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(in reply to 1275psi)

Post #: 35

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 10:08:44 PM

mind_messing

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To be perfectly honest, UI improvements to the current game would make the game for me.

Drag-and-drop boxes, hyperlinks, better interface with pilot pools and so on.

A bunch of QoL improvements would take a large degree of the tedium right out of this game.

(in reply to Rogue187)

Post #: 36

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 10:57:00 PM

btd64

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Easier way to add art. This is probably the biggest problem area for modders....GP

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Post #: 37

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/29/2018 11:48:03 PM

Zorch

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Voice commands. Such as "Open the pod bay doors."

(in reply to btd64)

Post #: 38

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 2:16:24 AM

FlyByKnight

Posts: 245
Joined: 10/8/2016
From: West Coast
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Add more ships that can be renamed. Later on, the Allied player gets many US destroyers that are named after people who died under very specific circumstances that wouldn't occur in-game (same goes for Destroyer escorts, but I think there's some leeway there because they're mostly named after lower-ranking servicemen). In addition, CVL-28 Langley can't be renamed on the off chance the allied player preserves AV Langley.
Also worth noting is that many of the Naval officers the aforementioned Destroyers are named after do not exist in the game files. Or they are not in command of the ships they were on historically at the game start.

It's rather odd to see people who were noteworthy enough to have a Wikipedia entry not appear in-game and have some nobody in their place.

These two are things one can add to the game database themselves, but I'm guessing not many people would go through the effort.

Some kind of 'theater system' for Leaders, or some varying delay for when a leader takes command of a unit to simulate the time it takes for them to transfer.

The option to set how many aircraft are given to a squadron when it receives an upgrade, possibly based on pilots, so that you don't send 25 precious fighters to a group when you have a thin replacement pool.

Order settings for surface TF's so that they're not as likely to bumble into an unwinnable engagement (leader ratings would determine how much these orders are followed).

Some way of showing ship formations in battle, a way to set them up beforehand (Like the formation the Japanese had at Tassafaronga-one destroyers out in front as a picket or something like that).
More ship XP values than Day/night. AA, ASW, etc.
A production/R&D system for both players (IE, Allied player wants to speed up production of the Alaska-class ships, Japanese player can dedicate some not-insubstantial amount of resources to developing an improved mid-range AA gun that's better than the Type 96 25mm).
More variables for the Captain of a ship or TF leader perishing than the ship sinking, like a lucky hit to the bridge.

The game tracks fighter pilot kills, so how about a system that lets players see any famous pilots who landed good hits on enemy ships?

A system for damaged planes to land at airfields en route to their destination and possibly appear as fragments, and for planes to be intercepted en route rather than over their destination hex by fighters flying from other places.

The chance for ships in a captured base to not be scuttled and placed into enemy service (Like USS Stewart AKA PB-102).

< Message edited by CharlieVane -- 1/30/2018 3:08:31 AM >

(in reply to Zorch)

Post #: 39

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 2:56:45 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

so how about a system that lets players see any famous pilots who landed good hits on enemy ships?

At Midway, Ltjg Dusty Kleis, flying an SBD, hit the HIJMS Kaga with his bomb in the morning then hit HIJMS Hiryu with his bomb in the afternoon. He got transferred after the battle to training new SBD pilots.

Since IJN pilots, in general, only got out of combat duty by going home in a box (of ashes) I would imagine that they had several of their own "ace" dive bomber pilots (given their actual historical statistics I'd be skeptical about saying the same about torpedo bomber pilots).

(in reply to FlyByKnight)

Post #: 40

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 8:37:51 AM

LargeSlowTarget

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- AVGAS (or an optional grognard hardcore version with AVGAS, POL, heavy fuel and coal, plus supplies split into general supplies, weapons&ammo, food, medical supplies)
- Google Earth style zoomable map
- proper command hierarchy, with unrestricted units (and bases) requiring only symbolic amounts of PPs to change commands
- better LCU orders system, like "X Corps and subordinate units move to hex yx" instead of ordering each unit individually
- better convoy creation, like "create convoy that fits the size X port at destination" (and options like "use same class" or "use same cruise speed")
- notifications for events, like if TF XY or LCU XY has reached objective and is awaiting further orders
- clickable location links in reports
- torpedoes = device that must be produced, instead of being available in unlimited numbers as long as supply lasts
- easier pilot training system, like designating air units as training units (option available only in rear bases) with player-definable targets for skill sets and skill level, which then pull rookies from basic training, train them up and then dump them in the reserve pool automatically
- US supply production not at 1944/45 levels from Day One
- correct OOB, esp. for shipping - many ships have wrong availability dates (some arrive too late, many way too early) and/or no withdrawal dates when they did serve in the ETO (prime example USS Nevada)
- ability to court-martial subordinates for not obeying or misinterpreting orders, and player risking being relieved of command when ordering stoopid moves

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Post #: 41

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 12:58:01 PM

RichardAckermann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
- ability to court-martial subordinates for not obeying or misinterpreting orders, and player risking being relieved of command when ordering stoopid moves

I wouldn't last one month then...

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)

Post #: 42

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 2:14:18 PM

Rogue187

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Here are some more thoughts:

1. I would like to add a Submarine-Ops screen. A button at the top of the screen, but for submarines. You could click one button and it would display all the submarines with mission, location, filter by nationality, etc. While you could still create Sub missions from base hexes, you could modify patrol locations and maybe get a quick peek at fuel and ammo loads. Maybe add the ability to return at low ammo or low fuel automatically. I think the subs return already when the fuel is too low even with human control, but at least I could see it on one dialogue box. Plus you could click on the sub name and it would jump you to that location. This would save a large amount of time hunting and clicking on subs to see their status. Here is a quick example:

SS Seawolf Sub Patrol 77,109 Ammo: Full Fuel: 86% On Patrol
SS Tambor Sub Patrol 86,108 Ammo: Empty Fuel: 50% RTB
SS Terrapin Sub Patrol 56,205 Ammo: Full Fuel: 98% ENR to Patrol

2. The ability to turn on and off hex numbers. Hunting for specific hexes is no fun and I still struggle to figure out the pattern. It seems like a few hex numbers will go in a line, then veer off in another direction.

3. A better developed auto-supply system. This may be sacrilege, but this game seems to be two games in one. War in the Pacific (Military strategy) and Logistics in the Pacific. While I have no issues with base building, deploying troops, bringing fuel and supplies, I spend far more time thinking about how to keep bases fueled and supplied. I have heard that warriors talk logistics and soldiers talk tactics, but I find that I will spend an hour playing with 45 minutes spent on figuring out how to move supplies from Perth to Broome or fuel from Aden to Colombo. It would be nice to create supply bases that feed to smaller bases. Instead of Colombo and San Fran, Karachi can feed fuel to Goa, and Colombo, then Colombo can feed Rangoon. So on and so forth. Like with the auto-TF, players could add or subtract transports and escorts as needed. Overall, it would be nice to have a better streamlined supply system for a person to focus on the military strategy and spend less time worrying that Nome, Tahiti and Christmas Island are low on supply.

< Message edited by Rogue187 -- 1/30/2018 2:15:03 PM >

(in reply to RichardAckermann)

Post #: 43

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 2:58:42 PM

sandlance

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Before any of these improvements are done, AE needs to be made more compatable with Win10.I did read Alfred post, this would take years of work. The farther we get from XP the harder the game gets to play.

(in reply to Rogue187)

Post #: 44

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 3:12:02 PM

John 3rd

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From: La Salle, Colorado
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Be able to designate a 'retreat to' button. The AI does its absolute BEST to retreat units in the WORST possible direction...

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Post #: 45

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 3:47:21 PM

RichardAckermann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance
Before any of these improvements are done, AE needs to be made more compatable with Win10.I did read Alfred post, this would take years of work. The farther we get from XP the harder the game gets to play.

Major upgrades on AE are not going to happen from what I know.
Probably becoming worse with the next windows.

A new game engine might do better. I have programs in plain old 32bit mode running in compatibility mode on newer OS, and they do fine.
More primitive seems to be better on the long run.

(in reply to sandlance)

Post #: 46

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 5:40:15 PM

Rogue187

Posts: 146
Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

Before any of these improvements are done, AE needs to be made more compatable with Win10.I did read Alfred post, this would take years of work. The farther we get from XP the harder the game gets to play.

Realistically, how long will this game be maintained? I know there is the unofficial beta patch that everyone uses, but my understanding is that it is more a labor of love than official development. It would be nice to see an update or overhaul of the game, but how long before it is simply abandoned and there are no longer unofficial updates? Have we already reached that point?

(in reply to sandlance)

Post #: 47

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 6:28:46 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
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I don't know if someone's mentioned this but I wish you could order naval bombardment missions' target priority by percentage for port, airbase and LCUs. Much of the time I'd put 100% on the airfield and I'd probably order more such missions.

(in reply to Rogue187)

Post #: 48

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 6:59:30 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

quote:

1. I would like to add a Submarine-Ops screen. A button at the top of the screen, but for submarines. You could click one button and it would display all the submarines with mission, location, filter by nationality, etc. While you could still create Sub missions from base hexes, you could modify patrol locations and maybe get a quick peek at fuel and ammo loads. Maybe add the ability to return at low ammo or low fuel automatically. I think the subs return already when the fuel is too low even with human control, but at least I could see it on one dialogue box. Plus you could click on the sub name and it would jump you to that location. This would save a large amount of time hunting and clicking on subs to see their status. Here is a quick example:

SS Seawolf Sub Patrol 77,109 Ammo: Full Fuel: 86% On Patrol
SS Tambor Sub Patrol 86,108 Ammo: Empty Fuel: 50% RTB
SS Terrapin Sub Patrol 56,205 Ammo: Full Fuel: 98% ENR to Patrol

Seems to me that should one not check a homeport for some reason when a sub has returned from patrol with low fuel/ammo AND with damage it will refuel and re-ammo but it will also put to sea immediately on the next turn without repairing the damage. This happens even with the "Auto-sub Ops" button off. I'm not sure what tempo submarines operated at in WW2 but I do know that the crews needed rest/recreation and the ships needed maintenance and that they would spend a significant amount of time in port following any patrol. The current put right to sea "coding" is surely not correct.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 49

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 11:41:33 PM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue187

quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

Before any of these improvements are done, AE needs to be made more compatable with Win10.I did read Alfred post, this would take years of work. The farther we get from XP the harder the game gets to play.

Realistically, how long will this game be maintained? I know there is the unofficial beta patch that everyone uses, but my understanding is that it is more a labor of love than official development. It would be nice to see an update or overhaul of the game, but how long before it is simply abandoned and there are no longer unofficial updates? Have we already reached that point?

The truth is, it is not maintained now. michaelm has moved to other projects and there is no published plan for a future for WitP:AE. Even while he was making changes, my impression was that he did maintenance in between his other responsibilities. I offered via PM to assist with programming, but never had anyone take me up on the offer. I suspect that the confidentiality / royalty agreements combined with the lack of interest on behalf of the parties involved in maintaining / extending WitP:AE will kill the game eventually.

(in reply to Rogue187)

Post #: 50

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 1/30/2018 11:42:57 PM

InfiniteMonkey

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Be able to designate a 'retreat to' button. The AI does its absolute BEST to retreat units in the WORST possible direction...

NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER! BANZAI!

(in reply to John 3rd)

Post #: 51

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 2/1/2018 12:23:37 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larrybush
It really goes both ways too. I just finished a book some of which is based on the 101 volumes the Japanese Defense Force wrote in the late 60�s on the conduct of the war. Pretty eye opening to see the constraints they had on petroleum, steel and the overall logistics of their war effort. Now when I read about someone saying the Japanese had to win the war by the end of 1943 I believe it. Some of the things that can be done in game with the Japanese were not possible.

Can you give the citations for a translated copy of the JSDF source or the book you refer to?

Post #: 52

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 2/1/2018 11:21:31 AM

cardas

Posts: 184
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Well, if we are discussing gameplay changes as well then I'll add some. Even though it might sound like I'd want a more complicated game I really don't, I want a "smarter" game.

- Less distinction between ships in port and in task forces. A ship can suddenly become invulnerable/invisible to, say, a carrier strike simply because it was put into a task force instead of staying in port while the carrier strike was a port attack (or vice versa).

- Less omnipresent bombardments. Somehow currently being in a coast hex means every single thing in that hex is lined up at the shore, in perfect range for even the smallest gun to hit whatever is there.

- Better/more granular ground combat model. Quite a big thing to sum up in a short sentence but I have difficulty articulating all the issues I have with it. At the moment things seems a bit too binary. One thing is that you can more or less outright lose a division in two days of combat in a fight against a unit of equal size (hostile division). Say you are moving over a river, there's an enemy unit on the other side (but you don't have good recon on it). Shock attack results, your division is shattered and the following turn the enemy shock attacks you back. Boom, one dead division. How in the world would that happen in real life?
Yes, yes, you could have done better recon, that just says what you should do in the game, it doesn't mean it's a very plausible result. Also sure, the game is an abstraction but I don't think those kind of quick results are any good for the game.
The combat model also often seem to encourage "doom" stacks instead of any kind of wide fronts. And so on and so forth...

- More granular(/verbose?) naval combat. The naval combat works, in a sense, because naval combat always seems to have been somewhat chaotic so any result the game spits out can be explained in one way or another. Regardless I'd want the game to tell me why my destroyer division with full ammo sailed within 3000 yards of an enemy merchant convoy, fired once (missing) and afterwards let them go. Sure, I can make some scenario up in my mind of how it could have happened, but then I could explain away pretty much any scenario.

- Better ship damage modelling/repair time. It seems unreasonable that a submarine can hit a mine, return to port and be back ready for sea a week later. This is somewhat less of an issue the bigger the ship is as they get pretty long repair times regardless. Though having a battleship hit by a torpedo and ending up with 0/0/0/0 damage is a bit mind boggling.

- Long term fatigue. Just to bring down operational tempo on all combat units (land, ground and air).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
- AVGAS (or an optional grognard hardcore version with AVGAS, POL, heavy fuel and coal, plus supplies split into general supplies, weapons&ammo, food, medical supplies)

I hesitate suggesting making the game more complicated. This is still something that at least sounds appealing I'd add "Reinforcemnts (troops etc)" to that list. Still this is something that I'd only really wanted if it was handled in a very clever way from the interface. I wouldn't want to play spreadsheet manager plus plus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: larrybush
Oh, what a topic! You know for a guy that only played the original WITP with a friend, I have only played WITP AE against the AI. Still it is my all-time favorite war game. I would love to see it get re-booted.

And on that topic... better AI?

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 53

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 2/1/2018 4:08:50 PM

RichardAckermann

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Not impossible, my AI is not doing that bad, it just has a little lack of considering enemy fleet force in a given area, as well as lacks overview of where to ship reinforcements. Apart from that, you can calculate all the risk and strategic value of a base, own assets, supply and stuff available to let the AI strike, harass, defend or evacuate a given base or area.

I admit it takes a lot of time to fine tune and add various values to consider, but I think it can be done - and I do not see an alternative. A scripted AI will always be prone to be outmaneuvered by a human player.

Post #: 54

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 2/1/2018 4:32:38 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

Some ideas:

1) Refocus on the player as a theatre commander
Remove any and all functionality that would be far below the level of the player. For example:
- if a task force is to bombard at night on the 24th/25th, don't require me to work out which hex it needs to be in on the 24th, let the Admiral decide
- have regiment commanders automatically assigned, then if the unit fights well award recognition points to its commander. When a new Division arrives assign a recognised, experienced commander without any player involvement
- don't order a squadron to sweep enemy airfield with 40% of its planes at 12,000 feet. Order a base to use its air assets to aggressively gain air superiority.

I would be extremely unhappy with changes like this and would not play that game.

I don't want a WiTPAE Lite.

The devil is in the details and it's the level of detail and required micromanagement that make this game great!

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mobeer)

Post #: 55

RE: What would you want in War in the Pacific 3? - 2/1/2018 6:23:47 PM

LeeChard

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline

An AI that would be able to change it's mission when it hits a brick wall would be my first choice.
I've had the AI attempt to take a position that I had strong forces at and it tries over and over while I'm sinking ships like target practice