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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: T09

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RE: T09 - 2/1/2018 3:13:41 PM

chaos45

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Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

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RE: T09 - 2/1/2018 7:11:00 PM

tyronec

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quote:

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

So you think it is looking terminal for the Soviets.
Having never played past early '42 I don't know where I should at at this stage to have hopes of making a comeback later in the game.
It looks like Moscow is a lost cause in '41, probable Axis will be up to the city by around T13 or so and expect it to fall before the mud. Would hope to hold Leningrad and have some sort of defensive line south of Moscow.
Here are the losses at the start of T10, have had about 20 unis pocketed apart from the inevitable ones at the start of the game.

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< Message edited by tyronec -- 2/1/2018 7:12:37 PM >

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RE: T09 - 2/1/2018 7:39:25 PM

SparkleyTits

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I think you are looking pretty solid and set up for a good game if you keep it up

The Moscow situation sucks for sure but his brute punch seems to be grinding down his armoured & fighters while your are looking strong in those areas without seeing select pools and losses
Manpower is also good but it's at the dangerous stage where that can change

Lenin would be great for you as it's always a drain having to station corps in the area there without the Finns

Good job!

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Post #: 33

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 12:14:59 PM

tyronec

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quote:

The Moscow situation sucks for sure but his brute punch seems to be grinding down his armoured & fighters while your are looking strong in those areas without seeing select pools and losses

His manpower losses are low, don't think his fighting power has been reduced hardly at all, except perhaps the Panzer divisions down a little. Despite my hammering his fighters he has still been able to maintain a good level of ground support, so long term it is helping the VVS but in the short term my air force is not helping the ground war much.

T09

Air war. 50 fighters for 330 LBs.

Retreat as planned, am trying to hold ground in the northern area of the front to the west of Moscow, just hope Axis have no HQBs in the area.
Couple of German divisions moving towards Odessa so expecting an attack there.
Another 8 fighters built.
Looking at progress so far I expect Moscow to be reached around T12 and to fall before the mud. Just need to make sure it is not too easy to that the panzers are not free to go attacking elsewhere.

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RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 12:32:13 PM

SparkleyTits

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Cheers for the context bud

Well hopefully the effects will start to show and slow him in 42 but I am sure Saper is well aware of his panzer grinding

Perhaps the effects of their losses isn't too important long term either as the early itterations he is losing phase out it will be simple enough to replenish with better tanks in the long term?
You would know that infinitely better than I do though Tyronec so a complete guess on my part

I do wonder why he isn't being more conversative with his airforce though he could just be going for a 41 win and hit your industry before just incase it doesn't happen?

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Post #: 35

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 12:55:14 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I do wonder why he isn't being more conversative with his airforce though he could just be going for a 41 win and hit your industry before just incase it doesn't happen?

(It looks to me the airbases are spreed out single stack but that could be just the recon of the hexes)

The air loses are not sustainable for the Germans. I'm curious if he Sapper did anything to combat the Russian bombers/fighters or he is just taking the losses on the chin. So Tyronec having been on both sides of the fence now with the Air War what are your comments? Still the same as before? You have a pretty hefty total so far.

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Post #: 36

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 1:01:56 PM

SparkleyTits

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Yeah with 509 single seats gone + What is gone this turn I imagine it can't be long until degradation starts as Tyronec is saying that GS is still undettered for Saper

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Post #: 37

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 1:45:02 PM

tyronec

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quote:

(It looks to me the airbases are spreed out single stack but that could be just the recon of the hexes)

The air loses are not sustainable for the Germans. I'm curious if he Sapper did anything to combat the Russian bombers/fighters or he is just taking the losses on the chin. So Tyronec having been on both sides of the fence now with the Air War what are your comments? Still the same as before? You have a pretty hefty total so far.

Several army bases spread out, the fighters are generally stacked. The limiting factor for me is LBs , am not getting to bomb all the possible target stacks.
Looks to me like he is just fighting back at night, though the fighters are further away now
Guess he is willing to sacrifice a lot of the Luftwaffe to make better gains in the ground war.
No change in my attitude to the air war, VVS is far too good in '41. However the Panzers are also too good. It is a game, not a simulation - no one would ever expect an atheist not to use their Bishop in a game of chess !
Am not sure when I will be able to go over to fighter sweeps and day bombing, having never had a game go like this before, but guess it will be some time yet.

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Post #: 38

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 2:06:47 PM

SparkleyTits

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

no one would ever expect an atheist not to use their Bishop in a game of chess !

+1

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Post #: 39

RE: T09 - 2/2/2018 2:20:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

(It looks to me the airbases are spreed out single stack but that could be just the recon of the hexes)

The air loses are not sustainable for the Germans. I'm curious if he Sapper did anything to combat the Russian bombers/fighters or he is just taking the losses on the chin. So Tyronec having been on both sides of the fence now with the Air War what are your comments? Still the same as before? You have a pretty hefty total so far.

Several army bases spread out, the fighters are generally stacked. The limiting factor for me is LBs , am not getting to bomb all the possible target stacks.
Looks to me like he is just fighting back at night, though the fighters are further away now
Guess he is willing to sacrifice a lot of the Luftwaffe to make better gains in the ground war.
No change in my attitude to the air war, VVS is far too good in '41. However the Panzers are also too good. It is a game, not a simulation - no one would ever expect an atheist not to use their Bishop in a game of chess !
Am not sure when I will be able to go over to fighter sweeps and day bombing, having never had a game go like this before, but guess it will be some time yet.

Thank you! Ya, I think you are probably correct in your statements here. Panzers are too strong & night bombing is too powerful. Nice comment on the Bishop ;-}

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Post #: 40

T10 - 2/2/2018 8:47:12 PM

tyronec

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T10.
Forgot to take screen prints at the start of the turn, end positions below.

Northern. Pushed back again on the Narva and the attack on Pskov begins.
Moscow area. The northern area of the line held OK, in front of Moscow lose 3 rows of hexes.
SWest. Retreating to Vononezh.
Southern. Trying to hold the line to delay the attack on Rostov. Could be risky if Axis have done HQBs.
Odessa. Being attacked, extract everything but the city garrison.

Air war. Using air interdiction didn't work too well and cost me 50 TACs for little result.
Totals for the turn: 55 (mostly fighters) for 418.
The Axis fighters have pulled back so my LBs are only getting one bombing run per turn.

Industry: Am on target for 200 HI and 300 AP as long as there are no further overruns. Having lost so many on T9 has not really made much difference as I wouldn't have had the rail capacity to get them out anyway and just different ones would have been lost.

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Post #: 41

T11 - 2/3/2018 10:53:45 AM

tyronec

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T11 after recon.
Northern. Pushed back in three hexes but not all followed up.
NWest. Pushed back one hex.
Western. Pushed back two hexes, just 20 miles to Moscow. One division cut off but can save it for one more turn.
Reserve. Not really followed up South of the Oka.
SWest. The infantry is following slowly.
Southern. Pushing up to my front line. I can only see 5 Armour units, one at the front and 4 heading towards the railway. So 10 missing, but perhaps some left last turn.
Odessa. Just the city hex left, held off one attack.

Air war. 23 for 49. Axis mostly lost to AA.

Thoughts for the turn.
Good turn for me, no units pocketed and no industry overrun.
Soviets won 17 defensive battles and lost 26 so some morale benefits.
Next turn September and will start to counter attack.
Northern. Will reinforce the Narva and around Pskov with a few more units.
Moscow area. The northern area is OK, will hold firm. In front of Moscow it is tricky, there is the Moskva river just behind the front line. If I leave the row of hexes in front of the river weak then anything forward of that can get pocketed and the river stops any counterattack. If I fill that row up with units then will have a lot of routs.
SWest. Will start entrenching along the Voronezh river.
Southern. Hoping that I have not missed some armoured units will try and hold the line.

So looks like 3 or so Pz corps are pulling back from the south, given that they are heading for the railhead my guess is they are going to Pskov, if not Moscow. There is no railway repair in Estonia so the Narva seems unlikely.
I think there is good grounds for not using too many armored divisions this far East during '41 under the latest patch because of the supply modifications.

Will swap an infantry division into Odessa to keep the garrison up to strength. Axis are attacking with 4 German divisions, I would usually expect to use 6 so may hold out for another turn or two..

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Post #: 42

RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 12:53:25 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 2:51:48 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

As for Chaos45's statement, I tend to agree with him a great many times myself. Even having to test things that I don't agree with then send a PM later to him stating he was correct :-}. But so far I see nothing that is drastic in this game that the Soviets don't have a chance, even if losing Moscow. Tyronec has played very well. But Saper has a habit of pulling out un-expected results turns 12-17 ;-)

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Post #: 44

RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 4:24:56 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange. The long debated historical argument is that Guderian's orders to turn south to assist Kleist in taking out the Southwestern Front saved Moscow. This question isn't relevant in WiTE because that act plays itself out through the Lvov pocket on the first turn with the help of Guderian's PG2.

Tyronec has taken your formula for covering Leningrad and it will be instructive to see if its survival is the trade off. If it is, that's good enough. If it isn't, then I am questioning if the Axis player needs so much help in order to make their game enjoyable or even playable.

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 6:16:21 PM

tyronec

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quote:

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange.

In this game the Germans have given up a lot for their attack on Moscow, most of AGN.

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. So this is a bit ahead of historical but maybe that is no bad thing for play interest.

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad, at least that is my prediction but it could all fall apart if he manages to pull off a big strike somewhere.

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 6:33:09 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Not looking good for the soviets....but then as I have been saying for awhile now, they have made the Germans far to good in the hands of a player with skill.

I tend to agree with about 95% of what you post, but as far as the Soviet situation here, we have to see. Tyronec is playing extremely well, and if he comes away with the promised industry, we'll have to see how this plays out. If the loss of Moscow is now largely a given with better German players under this meta, only a significant patch would change that. Given where WiTE2 is, that patch hardly seems likely. If this is how WiTE ends, it's too bad, but just reflects the preference for play balance vs. historical outcome.

So the way I understand this is that the Germans should not be able to take Moscow and if they are capable of taking Moscow there should be a patch. Is that what you are implying?

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange. The long debated historical argument is that Guderian's orders to turn south to assist Kleist in taking out the Southwestern Front saved Moscow. This question isn't relevant in WiTE because that act plays itself out through the Lvov pocket on the first turn with the help of Guderian's PG2.

Tyronec has taken your formula for covering Leningrad and it will be instructive to see if its survival is the trade off. If it is, that's good enough. If it isn't, then I am questioning if the Axis player needs so much help in order to make their game enjoyable or even playable.

That is what I thought but wanted to make sure :). Thank you M60

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 6:35:14 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

No, that is not what I am implying. The Germans should be able to take Moscow, but it would be reasonable to expect the German to give something up in exchange.

In this game the Germans have given up a lot for their attack on Moscow, most of AGN.

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. So this is a bit ahead of historical but maybe that is no bad thing for play interest.

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad, at least that is my prediction but it could all fall apart if he manages to pull off a big strike somewhere.

I concur with the assessment. Just be on the lookout because Sapper is notorious for game changers right up to the Blizzard

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 6:37:20 PM

Tomcat84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. [...]

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad

Maybe I'm misreading but I'm a bit confused. You say as it stands axis can take Leningrad but then you say he's given up on Leningrad?

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 8:15:57 PM

tyronec

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

My guess is that as the game stands Axis can take Leningrad in '41 and will end up with the front line running from Moscow to Rostov, with a tough fight as to who holds Moscow. [...]

Saper has a sure shot at Moscow but has given up on Leningrad

Maybe I'm misreading but I'm a bit confused. You say as it stands axis can take Leningrad but then you say he's given up on Leningrad?

Two different Axis strategies for '41.
If Axis go for Leningrad I think they can take it but will have to work hard to get Moscow.
In this game they will get Moscow in good time but I don't think they can take Leningrad.

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 8:33:00 PM

Tomcat84

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Ah you mean as WITE stands in general, not just this particular game? Got it now :)

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 10:34:16 PM

chaos45

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Germans still have 7 weeks to make things happen...then a couple weeks after mud....thats alot of weeks being already at the gates of moscow...just saying....I could be wrong but German CV on full attack is nearly unstoppable in 1941 and thats alot of weeks to try to stand in front of that CV with little room to give.

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RE: T09 - 2/3/2018 11:37:35 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Germans still have 7 weeks to make things happen...then a couple weeks after mud....thats alot of weeks being already at the gates of moscow...just saying....I could be wrong but German CV on full attack is nearly unstoppable in 1941 and thats alot of weeks to try to stand in front of that CV with little room to give.

Moscow will fall is my prediction. The real question is can Leningrad and the south be saved.

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RE: T11 - 2/4/2018 4:59:59 PM

tyronec

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T11.
Have not retreated much in front of Moscow or Rostov, hope I won't be regretting it.
Air war: 62 for 600. Tried to do a couple of fighter sweeps but it cost me 120 planes for nothing, except perhaps a little German fighter fatigue.

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T12 after recon. - 2/4/2018 5:01:30 PM

tyronec

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T12 after recon.
Northern. Have been pushed out of 3 hexes. Looks like 17th Army up from AGS.
NWest. A few limited attacks.
Western & Reserve. Pushed back to the gates of Moscow. 6 divisions cut off but not really pocketed, expect they will be next turn.
SWest. They are advancing slowly.
Southern. Just two attacks.
Odessa. Holds off the assault again. The port is being bombed.
Have my first two guards divisions.

Air war. 40 for 146.

Thoughts for the turn.
There are about 4 Panzer corps missing. The armour divisions in front of Moscow will be getting about 30% fuel per turn, however if these corps have been railed back and out again they could have done HQBs and be on 200% so present a major strike force. Can probably only rail about half of them each turn but my guess is that they will appear in front of Pskov soon. So will start building a reserve line in the woods.

Moscow area. PG4 have shifted a bit south and about 6 armoured divisions have pulled back so may be doing an HQB. Will abandon the salient south of Moscow, it looks ripe for being pocketed. Am also concerned that he may just be able to assault Moscow from the front.
Rostov area. Will counter attack to start to build up wins and experience.
Odessa. Looking good, will continue to swap out the weakest division.

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T12 - 2/4/2018 9:58:48 PM

tyronec

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T12.
Do a few attacks, all of which win. Saper is has been careful to avoid giving me easy targets.
Have about three armies worth heading for Leningrad but the quality is poor.
Down south there doesn't seem to be much there, may be time to attack all out next turn.

Air war: 68 for 300, mixed types. Axis interdiction was ON costing him a few bombers and giving me some experience. Did a few fighter sweeps to get rid of the biplanes and build up experience. Begun building U2VS this turn.

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T13 - 2/4/2018 10:00:10 PM

tyronec

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T13 After recon.
Northern. Pushed back at the Narva. Pskov line is broken and a Panzer corps comes through, only the GrossD is not on Red fuel so could have been worse. Pskov is isolated, will be pocketed next turn.
Am I allowed to quote myself, wrote that line about Pskov this morning and opened the move an hour ago.

NWest. Just a few push backs.
Moscow area. Up to the river south of Moscow. Seven divisions pocketed but the six that were isolated have been routed out. My Vehicle factories are done for but everything else is out of the capital.

SWest. They are advancing slowly.
Southern. It like the motorised division has pulled back. I can only see 9 German divisions in front of Stalino, 4 of them are stacked in the two towns.
Odessa. Beats off two attacks. The fort level is going down slowly.

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< Message edited by tyronec -- 2/4/2018 10:04:06 PM >

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RE: Saper (Axis) vs Tyrone (Soviet). - 2/4/2018 10:06:37 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
This is the old Sapper :).

Yeah this is vintage Sapper. Always thinking outside the box, he's a handful.

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Post #: 58

RE: T13 - 2/5/2018 9:18:40 PM

tyronec

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T13.
Leningrad. Get 4 new armies moved up for the defence.
Moscow. Will see if they go North, through the capital or South. Am weakest to the North.
Southern Front. Am attacking full out, threatening to flank Stalino from both sides and coming up from the Crimea to threaten the rail line. Not sure what Axis have behind the front line, will be interesting to see how Saper responds.

Air war. 25 for 150 LBs, plus another couple of hundred biplanes. Am getting about 40 Luftwaffe fighters a turn.

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T14 - 2/5/2018 9:19:42 PM

tyronec

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T14 after recon.

Leningrad. The Narva is not attacked. Axis advance up to the river north of Pskov and cross the river to the NE. No more armour divisions but a few more infantry.

Moscow. Big push to the north, crossing MV canal which is bad news. Looks like one corps from AGS arrived this turn and did a lot of the damage.
Zukhov lets me down and they get across the Moskva to the south as well.

Southern Front. A reasonably solid line in front of Stalino, can count 13 German divisions. Not much sign anything defending in north of the Crimea. At least two motorised divisions returning to the front, nothing better that to see them counter marching.
Odessa has fallen, and the defenders retreated so are lost.

Air war. 122 for 170. Germans are suffering from a lack of fighters.

Thoughts for the turn.
Leningrad. The frontal assault looks manageable, will try and hold the river line for another turn. To the East of Pskov will pull back to the next river.

Moscow. Will reform my lines north of the city. Zukhov will attack where the Moskva has been crossed. Concerned in case there is a huge pocket formed around Moscow, will see how next turn develops. There is also the risk of them breaking out to the north. Looks like my last turn to get any Vehicle factories out of Moscow.

Rostov. Will do what attacks I can towards Stalino to build up wins and morale. Infantry from the Crimea and the cavalry advancing along the Azov coast will spread out to expand the front line.