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Better CV - 2/7/2018 3:58:18 PM

VigaBrand

Posts: 303
Joined: 12/19/2014
From: Germany
Status: offline

Hi,
one question.
How does the "Better CV" Mod worked?

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RE: Better CV - 2/7/2018 5:43:28 PM

ringhloth

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

It takes into account more factors when calculating the CV, especially the expected value of the leader rolls. To the extent of my knowledge, it does not affect the actual combat results. However, after a couple of games played with it I am beginning to dislike it, as it provides too much certainty, without really removing a lot of the randomness, oddly enough. Ultimately, in a perfect engine, the results of the combat should be somewhat uncertain, be not nearly as random as they currently are, IMHO.

I think it's good to play with a couple of times, especially on the Soviet side, though, to get a grasp of the importance of good leaders and other things.

< Message edited by ringhloth -- 2/7/2018 5:44:19 PM >

(in reply to VigaBrand)

Post #: 2

RE: Better CV - 2/7/2018 5:54:56 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ringhloth

It takes into account more factors when calculating the CV, especially the expected value of the leader rolls. To the extent of my knowledge, it does not affect the actual combat results. However, after a couple of games played with it I am beginning to dislike it, as it provides too much certainty, without really removing a lot of the randomness, oddly enough. Ultimately, in a perfect engine, the results of the combat should be somewhat uncertain, be not nearly as random as they currently are, IMHO.

I think it's good to play with a couple of times, especially on the Soviet side, though, to get a grasp of the importance of good leaders and other things.

I will "never" play with "better CV" ever again. To me having the "better CV" makes the game not as fun & monotonous. But that is just me. Some people may like that factor, it just isnt my cup of tea.

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RE: Better CV - 2/7/2018 8:49:54 PM

thedoctorking

Posts: 2297
Joined: 4/29/2017
Status: offline

I like it but it certainly doesn't provide a guarantee of a good outcome. Many's the time I've attacked with supposedly 4:1 in CV, with a deliberate attack, and been turned away. And other times, I've nerved myself to attack with 1.5:1 or so and won easily. There are a number of factors that the CV model doesn't take into account and a good bit of randomness in the provision of support units, effectiveness of suppressive fires and air support, and what have you that can affect the attack.

As somebody said to me the other day, if your opponent is winning 90% of their attacks against you with odds in the 2:1 to 3:1 range, suspect that they are reloading the save game file repeatedly (cheating). Nobody can calculate the odds that effectively.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 4

RE: Better CV - 2/7/2018 9:23:20 PM

delasalle

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/5/2018
Status: offline

attacked with a good general, good SU, and good air support I think a competent player can easily estimate the result. it is much more difficult with mediocre generals. If your opponent is able to systematically improve his CVs with mediocre generals you can safely estimate that he cheats and reloads his game.
forgive me in advance for my bad english.

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Post #: 5

RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 2:39:08 AM

tomeck48

Posts: 203
Joined: 8/5/2016
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One of the reasons I stopped playing Decision Games War in Europe was because I kept running into opponents who were obviously cheating along that line. Guys whose winning percentage was higher at 1-2 than at 3-1. I hope there aren't many like that here.

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RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 4:07:59 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tomeck48

One of the reasons I stopped playing Decision Games War in Europe was because I kept running into opponents who were obviously cheating along that line. Guys whose winning percentage was higher at 1-2 than at 3-1. I hope there aren't many like that here.

Just send Slitherine a PM/email and ask them if a game has been reloaded. They will reply pretty quick to a few days if that is the case. Problem solved. But don't get in a habit of doing it every game and every turn.

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RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 4:08:49 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: delasalle

attacked with a good general, good SU, and good air support I think a competent player can easily estimate the result. it is much more difficult with mediocre generals. If your opponent is able to systematically improve his CVs with mediocre generals you can safely estimate that he cheats and reloads his game.
forgive me in advance for my bad english.

(in reply to delasalle)

Post #: 8

RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 5:40:36 PM

delasalle

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/5/2018
Status: offline

Thanks for the information HardluckyetAgain.In my current game I have no problem I play against a gentleman

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Post #: 9

RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 6:48:56 PM

No idea

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I like it but it certainly doesn't provide a guarantee of a good outcome. Many's the time I've attacked with supposedly 4:1 in CV, with a deliberate attack, and been turned away. And other times, I've nerved myself to attack with 1.5:1 or so and won easily. There are a number of factors that the CV model doesn't take into account and a good bit of randomness in the provision of support units, effectiveness of suppressive fires and air support, and what have you that can affect the attack.

As somebody said to me the other day, if your opponent is winning 90% of their attacks against you with odds in the 2:1 to 3:1 range, suspect that they are reloading the save game file repeatedly (cheating). Nobody can calculate the odds that effectively.

With a 3:1 cv attack ratio you can expect to win 95% of times (if not attacking across a river) No cheating involved. Altough with 2.5, if they are winning 90% of times, something might be "wrong" with the other player.

Ps. Of course, more things must be taken into account. For example, even attacking acroos the Neva can be done with less than 3:1 and win (and that taking into account that it is a major river, so you would need in a normal situatin something around 5:1 to win). However, loading the corps with pioneers, putting good generals (for checks) and pounding the other side with lots of Stukas works wonders most times.

< Message edited by No idea -- 2/8/2018 6:56:17 PM >

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RE: Better CV - 2/8/2018 7:36:51 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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Using alt CV the only variation I know is the defender passing their die rolls and doubling CV. Otherwise I use 3:1 and optimize SU's. I would contend that SU's affect the final outcome in multiple ways and the right ones applied at the right moment spell the difference between victory and defeat.

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 11

RE: Better CV - 2/9/2018 8:00:04 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Better CV is showing expected value taking into acount almost all of random factors. Normal CV ignore some factors (for example leaders) and wrongly represents the effect of others (morale, experience). Still, values in combat are random, and there is great variance to them where you can get something between 0.0625 and 32 times of your core (non-random base) CV. So it all boils down to have a 6th sense that will tell you which configurations will usually win and which not. Most people are used to normal CV values, and that's just fine. Their 6th sense will be thrown off the mark by seeing different values across the board. It doesn't change the fact that Better CV is better than Normal CV in representing CV affected by random factors.

(in reply to Crackaces)

Post #: 12