RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 3:49:35 AM

Canoerebel

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4/21/45

Intel Screen: This turn was really bad for Japan on the map - so bad that John expressed some lighthearted but genuine dismay in his email. As you'll see shortly, a carrier raid fizzled badly with him losing a lot of strike aircraft; a heavy 4EB raid vs. Kobe scored well; and his main stack in the Kaifeng Pocket in China took a very bad beating. It was a BAD turn for him.

....except in the Points department. As you can see, it was a decent but not spectacular day for the Allies. I'm satisfied, partly because I know things are building to a climax on the map (a cascade of points will come in eventually, I think) and partly because of the apparent "fix" to score around 500 points per turn.

John is one of many players who scoffs at Victory Points. If he just knew. If he could just step into the shoes of players like Lowpe and Obvert (and several others) who understand the depth and richness of the VP system. Right now, the war is a disastrous shambles for John, but the Victory Point system is making me work my weary butt off to achieve auto victory. Apart from Victory Points, there's really nothing left to fight for...nor has there been for quite some time.

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Post #: 13711

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:05:32 AM

Canoerebel

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4/21/45

Raid on Colombo: John blunts the tip of his spear against a hardened target. It's fun playing against an opponent who is raiding from Pago Pago to Ceylon in late '44 and '45.

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Post #: 13712

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:07:35 AM

paullus99

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Well, it might be worth it, if you think he's depleted his fighters...if not, you'd just be sending good planes into a buzz-saw.

Probably better to let him run away with his tail between his legs.

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Post #: 13713

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:07:55 AM

JeffroK

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I'm trading in my laptop calculator!!!!!!

or I rounded down?

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Post #: 13714

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:10:25 AM

Canoerebel

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4/21/45

Battle of Chengting: Chinese successfully attacked most of the main IJ stack I'm trying to surround and isolate (some of the other IJA units cleared the hex during the course of the turn). A lot of IJA squads destroyed - and a lot more disabled. A lot of points to be scored if I can close the Kaifeng Pocket and destroy the encircled Japanese army.

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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/9/2018 4:12:46 AM >

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Post #: 13715

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:12:04 AM

JeffroK

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Is JIII's favourite ACW General John Bell Hood, they share the same name??

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Post #: 13716

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:14:01 AM

Canoerebel

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Well, Hood or JEB Stuart. I've likened him to the latter in this game, due to his propensity to go off on "carrier cavalry rides."

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Post #: 13717

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:34:54 AM

Canoerebel

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4/21/45

China: With today's attack by the Chinese, the last real IJA offensive potential in the massive Kaifeng Pocket vanished. John may be able to find friendly hex sides to escape through, but I doubt it.

Korea: Major ground battle at Taikyu in about two or three days.

Strategic Bombing: Big raid on Kobe scores well. All bases from there south are now pretty much trashed. I can still find some points to raid at Nagasaki, Fukuoka and Shimonoseki, but pretty soon I'll have to take on a major target in middle Japan.

The Liberators and Mitchells will concentrate on ground targets for a few days, so many (not all) of the Superforts will stand down for maintenance.

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Post #: 13718

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:44:31 AM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

Apart from Victory Points, there's really nothing left to fight for...nor has there been for quite some time.

As long as there are Japanese CV's afloat, and the Rising Sun flies over Singapore, I can't agree. Yes, I know you're going for Victory Points in cheaper ways -- but if you were both ignoring VP's, that's where I would aim.

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Post #: 13719

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:52:57 AM

Canoerebel

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In the real war, the Allies ignored Singapore and Sumatra and Java and Korea and lots of other critical places. They had a plan and it didn't involve those place.

Ditto in this non-real war. I've taken what I need to win the war and don't need to take long chances. Those were taken long ago - the risky deep invasions of Sumatra and the DEI and Luzon and China and Formosa and Korea.

But I stil haven't won the game, because the victory points system tells me I haven't. I'm persuaded that the VP system is rather magnificent.

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Post #: 13720

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 6:08:52 AM

witpqs

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They did not ignore Singapore/Malaya, the war ended before they got there.

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Post #: 13721

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 7:25:00 AM

JeffroK

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I hope you are also recommending to JIII that he impale himself on CR's defences, after all the IJN destroyed itself at Midway, The Phillipine Sea, Leyte Gulf etc.

Remember that this is a game, with Victory conditions, not a simulation of WW2!!

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Post #: 13722

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 7:35:29 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In the real war, the Allies ignored Singapore and Sumatra and Java and Korea and lots of other critical places. They had a plan and it didn't involve those place.

Ditto in this non-real war. I've taken what I need to win the war and don't need to take long chances. Those were taken long ago - the risky deep invasions of Sumatra and the DEI and Luzon and China and Formosa and Korea.

But I stil haven't won the game, because the victory points system tells me I haven't. I'm persuaded that the VP system is rather magnificent.

It takes getting to the end to see it in its glory!

The fact that Japan stayed in the war as long as they did i shocking now looking back, with virtually no navy, no av gas or other vital war resources, very few good pilots and half of their army stuck in far flung outposts, or the massive armies in China, Korea or Manchuria.

That the Allies didn't take Singapore, didn't really get back much of the SRA and didn't get into a lot of other important strategic or symbolic spots isn't really an accident. The intention was always to take it right to the homeland. All roads led to Tokyo (except a few MacArthur organised).

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/9/2018 8:06:04 AM >

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Post #: 13723

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 11:44:44 AM

Canoerebel

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I mentioned a month or two back that I had compared the game map to the end-of-the-real-war map. The difference is striking. The Allies have taken vastly more ground - and vastly more "vital ground" - than in the real war. The differences are even more striking now.

In the real war, the Allies didn't take Malaya, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Formosa, Hainan Island, half of Timor, Korea, or northern China. All of those have fallen - or largely fallen - in the game, and it's still relatively early compared to the "real war."

In the real war, the Superforts were battering Japan from Saipan and Tinian mostly. In the game, they've been doing so from Luzon then Formosa then China then Korea. 2EB regularly hit Japan now from Korea.

In the real war, as the end drew near, the Allies made a concerted effort to avoid unnecessary casualties. I'm doing the same thing. So I am seeking victory as "cheaply as possible," which is the sensible way of doing it, I think.

Many/most players express a desire to compare their performance to the real war. By that measure, I'm doing pretty well. I don't feel bound to conquer every base on the map, and I think the AV system offers a realistic feel for defeat more than an arbitrary or subjective measure would.

Looking at the map, and seeing the beatings Japan is taking in Korea and China, there's no doubt Japan would've been on the verge of surrender had it faced these circumstances.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/9/2018 12:07:43 PM >

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Post #: 13724

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 12:42:47 PM

JohnDillworth

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John does not care about victory points because he is a complete KB guy. Auto Victory probably doesn�t matter either. As long as the KB is above water he did not lose. Sounds silly but the German Army was of a similar opinion in the 1920�s and 30�s. We did not lose in the field therefore we did not lose at all. So that ended up in a rematch. Maybe, someday, this too ends up that way

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Post #: 13725

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 12:51:27 PM

Canoerebel

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When France fell in '40, it still had a large battle fleet.

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Post #: 13726

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 2:03:50 PM

ny59giants

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quote:

Looking at the map, and seeing the beatings Japan is taking in Korea and China, there's no doubt Japan would've been on the verge of surrender had it faced these circumstances.

I would agree with you here, but you haven't done enough to slow down the flow of oil and fuel from the SRA. Your most recent screen shot shows all those subs off eastern China, but how many are down around Mindanao to attack his TKs going to and from Soerabaja and Palembang?

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Post #: 13727

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 2:15:59 PM

Canoerebel

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Like most Allied players, I learned long ago that leaving subs exposed to E-class ships and trained ASW bombers is a recipe for disaster. So, long ago, I pulled my subs out of the DEI and mostly out of the sea lanes leading to Japan. Instead, I placed them close to Allied CAP and naval assets, where it's hard for John to reliably use ASW aircraft (they get downed by my CAP) or E-class TFs (they risk getting sunk by responding DD TFs).

I know some players look at the "checkerboard" of Allied subs east of China and wonder why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can assure you the deployment and use of my subs is well thought out and has been working well. It might not against other players, but it has against this one.

As for the economy, that's just one aspect of a vast picture. There's no doubt Japan is teetering on collapse and would be in the real war if faced with this set-up. John has said as much many times, most recently offering that if I defeated his counteroffensives in China and Korea, the game was over. They were defeated and easily so.

All this cherry-picking misses the point. In a baseball game, the losing side can focus on how well it's pitchers held opposing runners on base or how many sacrifice flies they managed to hit. But if they lost the game 7-5 and the series 3-1, that's what really matters. It doesn't matter that John has a navy left when that navy is impotent. It doesn't matter that he has an economy left when he's unable to defend the heart of the empire (China and Korea) from invasion, nor when Allied bombers are hitting the southern half of the Home Islands with impunity. Japan is a wreck.

And if the atomic bomb was available now, I could lob it against Japan by catapault.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/9/2018 2:16:35 PM >

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Post #: 13728

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 2:49:03 PM

Canoerebel

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4/21/45

Strategic Targets: Japanese industry in the north one-quarter and in the southern half of Japan has been hit pretty hard.

I haven't targeted Osaka or Tokyo in many months, but the lingering damage to Heavy Industry and Light Industry there is considerable.

A few bases not listed on the graphic have been targeted occasionally. A few have never been targeted - chiefly Yokahama.

I've milked many of the primary targets about as much as I can. I can probably get several thousand more points from residuals at places like Sapporo and Hiroshima. But I may have to tackle Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Yokahama before it's over. John has concentrated his fighters there - except Osaka, where I suspect he has a huge concentration of AA.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 3:21:12 PM

AcePylut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And if the atomic bomb was available now, I could lob it against Japan by catapault.

At first I read this as "I would lob it against Japan". Then I saw it said "could" and was all "Dang, no nukes this game" :)

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Post #: 13730

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 3:58:12 PM

paullus99

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CR & John have been playing widely different games for the past year of game-time (or longer).

I'm sure when they compare notes, it will seem like they weren't even on the same planet.

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Post #: 13731

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:05:21 PM

Canoerebel

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I bet that's true.

But I'm the one playing the actual game (victory points and all). I suspect I'll find that John conjured a subjective paradigm that didn't conform to the game structure and bears little relation to the actual war.

A month ago, Aurorus made a series of posts in a separate thread that it was the threats to China and Manchuria that really prompted Japan to surrender. He made a strong case, though I think strategic bombing (and the atomic bomb) played a bigger role than he allowed for. But if Aurorus was right about China and Manchuria (and, it follow, Korea), then Japan really would've surrendered in this game months ago.

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Post #: 13732

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 4:33:35 PM

BillBrown

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John says he doesn't abide by Victory Points, but what is he doing now? Raiding off Colombo trying to get Victory Points?

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Post #: 13733

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 8:52:17 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

John says he doesn't abide by Victory Points, but what is he doing now? Raiding off Colombo trying to get Victory Points?

He is trying to do HULK SMASH! with this navy. Maybe pick up some victory points, but John likes sinking ships with his carriers, particularly if there is little risk of his carriers getting sunk.

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 2/10/2018 9:54:36 AM >

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Post #: 13734

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/9/2018 11:17:05 PM

jwolf

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In fairness, that is fun to do even if it doesn't make strategic sense.

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Post #: 13735

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/10/2018 12:29:03 AM

Drakanel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

In fairness, that is fun to do even if it doesn't make strategic sense.

Indeed it is fun.

It is still a game. Wanting to win is normal, but the journey is more important than the destination

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Post #: 13736

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/10/2018 4:32:37 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Like most Allied players, I learned long ago that leaving subs exposed to E-class ships and trained ASW bombers is a recipe for disaster. So, long ago, I pulled my subs out of the DEI and mostly out of the sea lanes leading to Japan. Instead, I placed them close to Allied CAP and naval assets, where it's hard for John to reliably use ASW aircraft (they get downed by my CAP) or E-class TFs (they risk getting sunk by responding DD TFs).

I know some players look at the "checkerboard" of Allied subs east of China and wonder why I'm doing what I'm doing. I can assure you the deployment and use of my subs is well thought out and has been working well. It might not against other players, but it has against this one.

As for the economy, that's just one aspect of a vast picture. There's no doubt Japan is teetering on collapse and would be in the real war if faced with this set-up. John has said as much many times, most recently offering that if I defeated his counteroffensives in China and Korea, the game was over. They were defeated and easily so.

All this cherry-picking misses the point. In a baseball game, the losing side can focus on how well it's pitchers held opposing runners on base or how many sacrifice flies they managed to hit. But if they lost the game 7-5 and the series 3-1, that's what really matters. It doesn't matter that John has a navy left when that navy is impotent. It doesn't matter that he has an economy left when he's unable to defend the heart of the empire (China and Korea) from invasion, nor when Allied bombers are hitting the southern half of the Home Islands with impunity. Japan is a wreck.

And if the atomic bomb was available now, I could lob it against Japan by catapault.

There are many ways to win this one. Your method seems to work as bout as well as any. I tend to be more methodical than you and don't try to capture as many bases. I look to put myself in an early position to close off Japanese oil and to put bombs on Japan. Don't really pay much attention to VP (although I don't shun them). If the Japanese run out of gas and food, then I am pretty sure that I have won.

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Post #: 13737

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/10/2018 6:50:26 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

When France fell in '40, it still had a large battle fleet.

As Germany had with the High Seas Fleet at the end of WW1.

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Post #: 13738

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/10/2018 12:25:06 PM

Bif1961

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Japan didn't unconditionally surrender, they got to keep the Emperor, who should have been tried as a war criminal, so their ending was difference then Germany's unconditional surrender. So having a different mindset is in the eye of the beholder.

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Post #: 13739

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/10/2018 1:12:40 PM

Canoerebel

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4/22/45

KB Raid Ceylon: The Japanese carriers retire. RN combat TFs sortie to intercept but miss. John has no detection on my combat TFs and carriers. Given the additional information it's pretty certain this wasn't a lure to draw the RN out of Colombo....so the Royal Navy will sortie tomorrow.

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