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refuel bug - 2/16/2018 10:17:07 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		Has anyone ever noticed the refueling bug?

Suppose you have a TF somewhere, in this case consisting of 4 DD's with max fuel of 4625 and current fuel of 2700 +- per ship.
- split the TF in 2 2-ship TF's
- select one and refuel at sea. Now the ships in the refueled TF will have max fuel, the ships in the other one around 800.
- select the other and refuel at sea. Now both TF's will have max fuel (?!)
- combine the TF's and you are good to go again.

Of course I mean the last part sarcastic. I don't think this is intended behaviour.







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< Message edited by ericv -- 2/16/2018 10:36:36 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 10:19:59 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		This is the TF after above mentioned trick. Weird right.

I tried it with different kinds of TF's. Transports and Surface Combat seems to work a lot. Tankers (with full operation points) seemingly not at the moment.








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< Message edited by ericv -- 2/16/2018 10:24:21 PM >

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 2
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 10:39:11 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Are you sure there were no other TFs in the hex or passing through the hex?
And your unit screen says the TF is at sea near ****** (a redacted place). That message can appear if the TF is in a port hex but not docked, which means it could still draw fuel from the port.

Have you tried this experiment more than once?

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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 3
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 10:47:14 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		The TF is at sea, 3 hexes from that port. it was the only TF in the hex.

I've tried it since in a test game a dozen times.
This trick worked with :
A Carrier TF at full sea, with nearest land 10 hexes away.
A BB TF at full sea (PoW, Repulse, 4 cruisers and 4 destroyers)
A couple of transport TF's.

Most ships in the TF ended up with full fuel, depending on the Ops point left.

Sometimes it doesn't work however, although I am not sure why, Tankers don't seem to work.

It is scen 1, december 1941.



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Post #: 4
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 11:00:00 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Tankers at sea can only transfer fuel from the ship's own bunkers, not from their cargo tanks. AOs can pump from their main tanks.
I am surprised because I have been playing the game for years and have had occasion to cross-refuel TFs and recombine them but never got full fuel in both TFs. Whatever fuel increase there was in one TF had a corresponding decrease in the other TF.

BTW, are you playing as IJN or Allied?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 5
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 11:02:08 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		It is very surprising.


I am playing as allies. I've started up a test scenario 'head to head' I'll document it a bit more clearly. One moment.




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Post #: 6
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 11:57:49 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		Ok. I created a testgame. With a TF consisting of 4 DD's that moved at mission speed from San Francisco to PH.

This is their location after a 2-day turn cycle.






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Post #: 7
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 11:58:30 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		the same picture with the contents of the TF visible.





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Post #: 8
RE: refuel bug - 2/16/2018 11:59:42 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		The same TF with more detailed information.




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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 9
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:00:58 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		As you can see their fuel is at 3976. I now create another TF. So I end up with 2 TF's each with 2 DD's

TF 1 :






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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 10
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:01:24 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		And TF 2



(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 11
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:05:12 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		Sorry about the underlay of the other picture.

Anyway.

Now, I replenish this TF at sea :






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Post #: 12
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:06:13 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		Now I switch to the other TF, which has lower fuel as expected.






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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 13
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:07:53 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		However, If I press replenish at sea for this TF. This one gets set to full, and the other one remains full!

TF 1 after replenishment




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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 14
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:11:07 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		tf 2 after replenishment of TF 1. Look at the ops points and obviously the full fuel.






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Post #: 15
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:12:47 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		finally, the 2 TF's recombined.

As you can see, they went from 3900 to fully refueled without any other TF in the area far away from any coastal hex.






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Post #: 16
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:16:14 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		I hope this makes it a bit more clear. I've tried different setups.

I am not going to make screenshots of them all,

One condition which is easy to check is that the first TF that gets replenished, needs to get to full fuel otherwise it doesn't work.

This works with Transport TF's, Surface Combat TF's (mixed with CA,Cl, DD), Air Combat TF's.

I haven't got it working yet with a Tanker TF. Wether they got fuel on board is not the point.

The point is fuel gets created out of thin air.


(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 17
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 12:21:51 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline 		If you want to check it yourself, here is the save I used.

It is Scenario 1. Version 11.26b




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Post #: 18
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 8:51:33 AM   
RichardAckermann

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 12/4/2015
Status: offline 		Cool finding. This game is still full of surprises after so many years.

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 19
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 10:16:06 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah, good find!
I can second this one. Also manifests itself sometimes when you refuel your combat ships from merchants' bunkers. Some types of ships seem more prone to the shenanigans than the others. E.g. does not work for CVs or BBs refuelling each other, also it seems hard to replicate this for IJN ships (tried it in my test scenario just now).
On the other hand in my experience large Allied AKEs can sometimes generate fuel out of nowhere for combat ships if you have enough turns to cycle through. Had this happen in my AI games on a few occasions, yet to find the exact conditions for this to become possible.


< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/17/2018 11:23:20 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 5:56:01 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

Cool finding. This game is still full of surprises after so many years.


Yeah, but this isn't WAD. So now that its known just don't do it.


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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RichardAckermann)
Post #: 21
RE: refuel bug - 2/17/2018 8:33:52 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ackermann

Cool finding. This game is still full of surprises after so many years.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Yeah, good find!
I can second this one. Also manifests itself sometimes when you refuel your combat ships from merchants' bunkers. Some types of ships seem more prone to the shenanigans than the others. E.g. does not work for CVs or BBs refuelling each other, also it seems hard to replicate this for IJN ships (tried it in my test scenario just now).
On the other hand in my experience large Allied AKEs can sometimes generate fuel out of nowhere for combat ships if you have enough turns to cycle through. Had this happen in my AI games on a few occasions, yet to find the exact conditions for this to become possible.



It surprised me as well. I haven't tested this with the japanese or AKE's for that matter.

Lot's of things that still could be patched up in this beautiful game

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 22
RE: refuel bug - 2/18/2018 3:29:04 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

Cool finding. This game is still full of surprises after so many years.


Yeah, but this isn't WAD. So now that its known just don't do it.


The good news is it can be avoided by just 'refuel before splitting' into separate TF's, if I understood correctly.

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Post #: 23
RE: refuel bug - 2/20/2018 10:20:46 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		The "bug" may be an illusion. I tried it several times and as the OP showed, the TFs showed max fuel range for each of the ships in the TF screen. BUT, if you look at the individual ship screen the Fuel % varies just as it would if some ships donated their fuel to completely fill others.

I don't know if the game engine uses (1) the ship fuel % or (2) the displayed fuel range to figure how far the ship can go without refuelling.

In the first instance, the exercise in transferring fuel gained nothing but used ops points, and when the ship with lowest fuel % gets to Bingo fuel the other ships will have to buddy-fuel it, wasting still more ops points.

In the second instance, the ship can go the complete fuel range displayed and it is indeed an exploit of the game engine.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 24
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