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[FIXED B998.5] Active Sonar query

 
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[FIXED B998.5] Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 2:51:07 PM   
R0blake

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 10/8/2016
Status: offline 		It was my understanding that tactically active sonar has few uses as it gives away the
submarines whereabouts at more than twice the distance that the submarine can detect contacts with active sonar.

However in Command V1.14 Build 998.4 Active sonar doesn't seem to have any drawbacks and gives the sub or ship using
active sonar a first look first shoot if the target is on the same side of the layer


In the attached scen. using Command V1.14 Build 998.4

A Seawolf is heading towards a Akula II. Both subs have speed set to creep just under the layer.

The Seawolf is using passive sonar. The Akulla II is using Active sonar.

In this test the Akulla II detects the Seawolfs exact position at a range of 39.9miles
At this range it can fire its SS-N-15 and sink the Seawolf without being detected.

If the Akulla II holds fire the Seawolf doesn't detect the active pinging Akulla II until its within 20 miles.

So my question is why doesn't the Seawolf detect the active pings from the Akulla?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 2/23/2018 4:06:10 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 4:18:53 PM   
TyphoonFr

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 11/23/2017
From: FRA
Status: offline 		To detect active ping, the seawolf uses his AN / AWR-9B (Acoustic Intercept 15nm) and the Akula his Generic Acoustic Intercept.
At 20 miles, it is not even the active ping that the seawolf detects. Performs the test by cutting the active sonar of the Akula, the range of detection will be identical.
If the seawolf would have detected the ping, you would have a mention "HFsonar" or "LF sonar" written above the contact.
I do not think I'm wrong if I tell you that most of the ways to detect an active ping in Command have a range of 15 nm and even sonobuoys do not detect active ping ..

So if you have no enemy contact within 15nm, your active sonar is not detected.


Now, is this normal, good question

We go to war with what we have, not with what we would like to have.


(in reply to R0blake)
Post #: 2
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 4:32:46 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just ran my Op Drum benchmark scenario and turned on the sonar for the SSN Virginia. Within 30 seconds a PLA-885 (Yasen) on the Russian side got a contact on the US sub at an estimated range of 38 mi. It was a 10 mile and very narrow uncertainty zone simulating a bearing contact. Within 5 minutes, I had an accurate contact from 28 mi. As soon as I shutoff the active sonar, the US sub uncertainty zone began increasing quickly.

(in reply to TyphoonFr)
Post #: 3
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 4:45:42 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I also noted that orientation of the sub that is pinging makes a difference on detection range. From an engineering standpoint that kind of makes sense.

Also noted that the contact comes in and out of being solid once out beyond 15 mi. under 15, it is fairly steady. Over 15, it might stay solid for a few minutes than drop, and so on. Past 20, the uncertainty zones becomes very large.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 4
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 4:47:02 PM   
BrianinMinnie

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline 		"In this test the Akulla II detects the Seawolfs exact position at a range of 39.9miles
At this range it can fire its SS-N-15 and sink the Seawolf without being detected."

Doesnt this mean that when Piloting a Akulla against Nato subs, just keep your Active on and you'll always locate them before they see you? assuming your on the same side of the layer.

he said "detects the Seawolfs exact position at a range of 39.9miles"

Does this still apply when the Seawolf within in the layer?


(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 5
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 4:47:35 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline 		Just looked at this save and it seems like suspicious behavior indeed. Don't see how is possible for a ping to travel 39nm and then back to pinging sub w/o it also being detected by the target sub.

Tried shifting the Seawolf's aspect in case the towed sonar was blinded by the bow. Also varied the Seawolf's depth. Throughout all this the Seawolf never detected anything.

On the other end, the only thing that broke Akula's avtive fix was bringing the SW above the layer.


EDIT: clarity

< Message edited by ExMachina -- 2/22/2018 4:53:43 PM >

(in reply to TyphoonFr)
Post #: 6
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 5:09:03 PM   
TyphoonFr

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 11/23/2017
From: FRA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Just ran my Op Drum benchmark scenario and turned on the sonar for the SSN Virginia. Within 30 seconds a PLA-885 (Yasen) on the Russian side got a contact on the US sub at an estimated range of 38 mi. It was a 10 mile and very narrow uncertainty zone simulating a bearing contact. Within 5 minutes, I had an accurate contact from 28 mi. As soon as I shutoff the active sonar, the US sub uncertainty zone began increasing quickly.


So if I understand correctly, a Yasen detected the active Ping of a Virginia is 38 miles with the mention "HFsonar" or "LF sonar" written above the contact.
I can not reproduce it (with v1.14 Build998.4).

Do you have a backup?

< Message edited by TyphoonFr -- 2/22/2018 5:11:10 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 7
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 5:12:45 PM   
R0blake

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 10/8/2016
Status: offline 		Thanks for your reply's

The question I have is why can the Acoustic Intercept sensor only detect active sonar within 15nm?

This is fine if the hostile subs active sonar has a range of less than 15nm.

However a lot of modern Russian subs have an Active sonar range of 40nm.

In the game as long as you’re 15nm away from a target, Active sonar doesn’t have any drawbacks.

(in reply to ExMachina)
Post #: 8
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 5:15:17 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I didn't check the detection method. I'll do it when I get back.

(in reply to R0blake)
Post #: 9
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 5:20:00 PM   
TyphoonFr

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 11/23/2017
From: FRA
Status: offline 		It would be necessary to increase the detection range of the means allowing the acoustic interception (AN/ALY-1 for a Virginia or AN/AWR-9B for a Seawolf) which have a range of 15 miles.
They are the ones that allow the detection of active ping sonars (Hull array, Sonobuoy, Dipping sonar ..)

(in reply to R0blake)
Post #: 10
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 5:57:28 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just did a series of tests. I think you are correct around the 15 mile exact range to get a solid contact if the target is pinging. I did an apples to apples test. The same two sets of subs. In one run, target is pinging. In second no active sonar.

In the ping test, the red sub picked up a relatively uncertain contact at 26 mi. The uncertainty quickly became a solid bearing contact with a long and thin uncertainty zone. It did not solidify until 15 miles and then was exact down to the type of sub.

In the non-ping test, the red sub didn't get a contact with even an uncertainty zone until 21 miles. But it stayed uncertain even with 4 mi. At that point it had speed and depth. It never got more than speed and depth while I had it running.

The main difference is how quickly the red sub got a bearing and type of sub in the pinging test. I probably could have fired on the blue sub at over 20 miles, if I had the range. In the non-pinging test, I would have had to fire a pretty wide spread to even have a chance. It never had a real solid contact.

(in reply to TyphoonFr)
Post #: 11
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 6:55:15 PM   
ExMachina


Posts: 462
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline 		I would still like to know what's going on in OP's .save scenario

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 12
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 7:16:32 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

Yeah I agree we should increase the range of ping intercepts, thanks for pointing this out

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(in reply to ExMachina)
Post #: 13
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/22/2018 8:14:59 PM   
R0blake

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 10/8/2016
Status: offline 		Thanks for the quick response to this issue!



(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 14
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 4:05:52 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		There were multiple issues in this setup.

* As Ragnar pointed out, AIRs had too short ranges and thus did not detect active pings coming from beyond 15nm.
* The reason the Akula was detecting the Seawolf was that the performance of bottom-bounce mode was exaggerated. Adjusted to max 120% of direct path (best case), as indicated by public sources.
* AIRs were not evaluating pings using bottom-bounce mode.
* Active sonars and AIRs were both too precise in CZ detections.

All these have been fixed for the next update.

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(in reply to R0blake)
Post #: 15
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 4:14:29 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline 		Why not beta team catch this for submarine DLC? Not trying to give you hard time but it seems like big oops. You may want to have beta do another testing cycle with this kind of stuff in the process. Customer catching basic issue not great. Lazy reviewers seem to pick up on this stuff even if meaningless.

Hope this help!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

There were multiple issues in this setup.

* As Ragnar pointed out, AIRs had too short ranges and thus did not detect active pings coming from beyond 15nm.
* The reason the Akula was detecting the Seawolf was that the performance of bottom-bounce mode was exaggerated. Adjusted to max 120% of direct path (best case), as indicated by public sources.
* AIRs were not evaluating pings using bottom-bounce mode.
* Active sonars and AIRs were both too precise in CZ detections.

All these have been fixed for the next update.


(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 16
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 6:12:36 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I'm sure that constructive criticism helps a lot.

Are you stalking me again? I was already here you know. btw, still waiting to hear from my ISP. Did your ISP ever tell you when I can expect a call?

Again, I would have done this privately, but you seem so wanting to keep it public.

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 17
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 7:08:00 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I'm sure that constructive criticism helps a lot.

Are you stalking me again? I was already here you know. btw, still waiting to hear from my ISP. Did your ISP ever tell you when I can expect a call?

Again, I would have done this privately, but you seem so wanting to keep it public.


It doesn't matter what you think about anything. Stop bugging customer.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 18
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 7:24:27 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I am not the one that cam into a thread and started the bugging. Did you forget the thread below?

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 19
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 7:34:37 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am not the one that cam into a thread and started the bugging. Did you forget the thread below?


No. It easier to just keep log of your harass nonsense and repost whenever. Who give you badge to pick on user who posts you do not like? You definitely don't like when it done to you so why you do to others? This is only question I care to ask you.

Thank You

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 20
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 7:35:41 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I am not even sure what you are saying. I think you need to slow down a little and form clearer sentences.

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 21
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 7:36:32 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am not even sure what you are saying. I think you need to slow down a little and form clearer sentences.


You can pick on my english all you want. It just make you sound like bigot.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 22
RE: Active Sonar query - 2/23/2018 8:16:00 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Its not the english. Its that you are all over the place.

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 23
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