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IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 12:34:57 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Just sent away my first Dec8 turn ever playing as Japan... I do not fully understand the industrial side of things, but am even more so in the dark concerning aircraft. I figured my Allied opponent had waited long enough, so I sent him the turn figuring one day wouldn't sink the war(to my knowledge my opponent has never played before). Looking at aircraft R&D, I noticed my attempts to repair R&D factories wouldn't 'stick'. I didn't try every factory... but then I wondered - can an airframe be researched before there are any engines available? My IRL genie is telling me no way, but here I am asking. Also, in general terms I tried to incorporate all I've read (there are too many out there to start naming)about what to build. but that's as far as I got. I'm hoping my question may find an answer, and I'm open to helpful suggestions. I've read in the forum 'till my eyes bleed and so much of this stuff is years away from affecting the game, but I have read several posts that indicate early mistakes in this arena can doom an Empire to failure...Thanks to anyone who takes the time!

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 3:41:34 AM   
DanSez


Posts: 1023
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

... I do not fully understand the industrial side of things,


No one did their first time playing.

Relax, the learning cliff is itself an interesting climb. You are going to make a lot of mistakes.
About the industrial side and aircraft - a major general note is to watch and learn how to manipulate the supply levels where you have factories that will need to repair.
You must have over 10K in supply to even qualify to repair a factory. Then you burn supply in repairs.
You should manage your repairs.

Example:
Harbin has 3 Engine Factories and 4 Air Frame Factories
Lets say all three of the Engine Factores could repair this turn.
Also an Oscar 1c factory is expanding and could repair
and you have three R&D factores which might luck up and one of them repair
but you only have 12k supply in Harbin

What do you do?
These tricks will help you do the other part more effeciently: develop your own air defense mixtures of air frames and altitudes. Often choices are forced upon you, but every aircraft has a 'best' use.

You did not say if you are playing PDU ON or OFF. Big difference in your plane research.
You did not say if it was Realistic R&D ON or OFF. Another important difference in how you could shift between Production to R&D and then back again.

Big General Suggestion:
Go to the Industrial Screen and at the bottom should be a button to Turn OFF Repairs.
Click it.
Get a notebook or create a spreadsheet to record your notes each turn. There is too much going on to rely on memory alone. Now over the next week or so of game time, go to each city, monitor and manipulate supply and turn Repair ON for specific factories you want to repair.
This Turn --- make sure you are producing and even if possible start increasing the production of your main line fighters:
A6M2 and Ki-43-Ic.
Don't go crazy with the Ic, but you will need some for the next couple of months, which is your most important expansion period.

You will need Vals and Kates -- make sure they are Prod ON.
You need lots of things, but will have to priortize them the first 3 months, meanwhile you have to lead a multi-prong invasion/assault to secure the oil and resources you need to last the rest of the game. No pressure.

Keep asking questions...
and good luck.




< Message edited by DanSez -- 3/21/2018 3:44:44 AM >

(in reply to dasboot1960)
Post #: 2
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 11:26:11 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		You have to have 10,000 supplies at a city, and maintain that for factories to repair. The main consideration is to build the engines for the planes you think you'll want. Don't build airframes you don't need. Don't build engines for airframes you don't really want. A number of engines are obsolete but in inventory when the war starts. Pick out the airframes you feel will be most useful that use those engines, but still don't build them til you need them. R&D on future airframes gets a boost if you have 500 of the appropriate engines in inventory and maintain that. Make a plan on how many engines of each type you think you'll need and repair production to the appropriate level. Be as stingy as you can on airframe production and just wait for the right time. You can be anticipatory in repairing airframe factories to a level of production you think you'll need at some point, while setting production to "no" until the appropriate time arrives.

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 11:47:57 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Another consideration, perhaps a corollary, is that shipbuilding eats up a huge amount of HI. You're going to need CVs to win this war, so build them (except the Shinano). Curtail or cancel building programs for ships you will not need. Most important, this is primarily an air war and you're going to need the right aircraft. But they are no good if you don't have properly trained aircrews to operate them. Your inputs on trainable recruits is fixed, so you must tailor your aircraft production to match. Strategically, IJN aircrews are at a premium, in large part because of their ability to sink ships. Sinking ships is the most productive use of an aircraft and aircrew there is. Bombing LCUs is of little value most of the time, and bombing airfields and ports is useful some of the time. Sinking ships and submarines is a good thing everyday, so tailor your training programs to that. Plus, you can train bombing crews in ground attack by just doing it, so pick targets that don't have too much flak or CAP and bomb away.

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 2:08:19 PM   
DanSez


Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/5/2012
Status: offline 		Yes, tracking supply and HI levels every couple of turns to make sure they are tracking the right direction (increasing), and if not-- figure out why. But that comes after the first hectic week of the first battles.

For the first week, turn off almost all Repairs in the Home Island, start fiddling with the Supply (stockpile and +levels) to get that 10k threshold met, then start changing factories to their new targets and turning on repairs (most important lines first). AND make sure you are producing front line fighters and carrier attack aircraft (air frames and engines).

Don't repair any factories you are going to switch over in the next couple of weeks to new lines. That is a waste of supply. Don't Produce engines or aircraft you don't want or need, like the Hitachi Amakaze engine... mothball it until you get a handle on the opening week of the war and make a decision on what you want that factory to produce. Plus no use switching it until you get enough supply in that city. But you do want to produce the E14Y1 Glen for your I-boats, so leave Prod ON and let those levels build up. Eventually you will want to switch the Glen airframe factory over to another line but for the first few months of the war, let that factory produce your stockpile of Glen aircraft for the Rest Of The War.


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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 3:50:42 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		So this is a pbem...

PDU off or on is a big deal....but general advice good for either:

Put 10 factories each sized to 30 on each the Sam and Frank A. Look at all your r&d facilities and pick those that are researching oddball planes, especially non-fighters that won't arrive until 1945. Bar none, these two fighters are the most important planes Japan researches...

As mentioned, it is a several step process where you need to establish more than 10,000 supply at the bases.

And you are correct, you don't need to change everything at once...it is a long war. Usually.


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Post #: 6
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/21/2018 5:40:35 PM   
DanSez


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Status: offline
Another small complication (about conserving supply and HI):
if you change an airframe to another line that is not a direct upgrade -and-
if they are both (original factory to new target factory) the same number of engines, fewer factories will be out-right destroyed.

Switching a 1E to a 1E is more cost effective than switching a previously 2E to a 1E.
Not that you should never do this, but it will be more expensive in HI to switch a 1E to a 2E in one city and then switch a 2E to a 1E in another. I believe it is 100HI per destroyed factory that would not have been destroyed if you kept to the same number of engines.
100 HI points are not a lot in the big scheme, but it adds up over the course of the war and that means saving points now allows more planes or engines or ships you can build later.

So you REALLY need to write it out in a notebook or a spreadsheet and start planning in the backgound between turns.

It took me a couple of years (in real time) to notice and figure out the above...

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:03:53 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Thank You DanSez!. I actually have done most of what you said, I have a clue about how tracker works and have it up and running. I haven't done anything with A/C production except turn of some of the more obscure types for R&D. Late fighter bombers & night fighters without radar. I'm still wondering whether I need specific engines to turn on R&D factories for airframes. It is my intent to increase IJN and IJA f as you say and the DB TB. I also intend to bring up ki21 until helens come in . No Nicks no lilies past what is in the que.

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:10:08 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Thank You geoflambert! - I infer from your response that I cannot research airframe for which I do not have engines? I also have learned from the Mike Solli AAR that I need to be sure and look way down the road in tracker for engine requirements.

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:13:13 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		I get it DanSez. That engine is also used on a late war medium 2-eng (Q1W1?) that I think is a kamikaze candidate. I did not turn that one off

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:17:28 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Thank you Lowpe! I think I took a fair shot at the oddball thing. I'm waiting on the return turn to see if my (few) R&D factory changes took effect - they did not appear to 'stick' when I was changing them, but it is just a day

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:24:20 AM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Thank you again DanSez. I don't think I've made the 1e-2e error yet. By the way and for all we are playing PDU on and historical R&D on. I'm not sure what that means for accelerating R&D. Thank you all, I probably should rename the thread to 'ongoing and sundry', but I don't intend to get into tactics, operations or strategy. My opponent has not played before, and I am encouraging him to use the forum, but I don't want to give anything away. I am experienced in the Pacific theater, but not as the Japanese in this game. Thank You all for your responses!

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Post #: 12
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:36:12 AM   
DanSez


Posts: 1023
Joined: 2/5/2012
Status: offline 		You can research (and complete) an air frame that has no engines available.
But you will not be able to build them without the engines.

The Q1W1 is an ASW/ Nav Search plane.

The Japanese quandry that most AFBs don't get is 'Yes, you can build a bunch of stuff, but you can't build everything you want.' You have to make good choices for either the min/max killer way, or the role-playing way depending on what you and your opponent are trying to achieve.

The 1942 fighters you over produce and remain in pools unused could instead be those sweet 1944 3rd gen fighters you will need to slow down the Allies as they press closer toward the Home Islands - so watch your production totals as well once you get everything stablized and rolling.




(in reply to dasboot1960)
Post #: 13
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:49:37 AM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

PDU off or on is a big deal....but general advice good for either:

Put 10 factories each sized to 30 on each the Sam and Frank A. Look at all your r&d facilities and pick those that are researching oddball planes, especially non-fighters that won't arrive until 1945. Bar none, these two fighters are the most important planes Japan researches...




I have no idea if you are playing PDU:off or On, but I think that you will find it impossible to dedicate 10 factories to Frank and the A7M2 for PDU:off. That is 20 factories. The problem is that, in PDU:off, you cannot upgrade any squadron out of sequence. So, in order to upgrade to Frank, many squadrons must first upgrade to Oscar IIIa. Advancing Frank to April 1943 is of little benefit if you must wait until 1944 for the Oscar IIIa. The same can be said for the Sam. In order to upgrade to Sam, a squadron must first upgrade to the A6M8. In order to upgrade to the A6M8, it must first upgrade to the A6M5c. In order to upgrade to the A6M5c, it must first upgrade to the A6M5b, and so forth. There is no skipping steps.

Because both the Ki-43 and the A6M lines must move through multiple airframes to reach their conclusion, you will need a good number of factories on these: 4 on Ki-43, for example, and 8 on A6M. If you were to combine these 12 factories with 20 for the Frank and Sam, you will find that you have few, if any, factories left to advance lines such as the Tony, Tojo, Judy, Jill, and the Nightfighters. Tony and Tojo will account for nearly 40% of your mid-late war airplanes, so it is helpful to have some R&D in these as well. Also Judy is very important, because the Val's small 250 Kg bombs will not penetrate thicker armor.

Again, this is for PDU:off only, but much of the same can be said if you are playing PDU:On and do not skip steps: which is to say, advance your R&D directly from the A6M2 Rufe, for example, to the A6M8. If you are playing PDU:ON, and you intend to skip steps and have 8 fully repaired factories researching the A6M8 in March of 1942, you should probably speak to your opponent about this in advance. I think many allied players would be very alarmed to see 1945 airframes appearing in 1942. The same can said for the Ki-100 Tony, which can also be available in large quantities in early 1943 if you skip steps and invest heavily in this plane.

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RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 3:21:45 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

PDU off or on is a big deal....but general advice good for either:

Put 10 factories each sized to 30 on each the Sam and Frank A. Look at all your r&d facilities and pick those that are researching oddball planes, especially non-fighters that won't arrive until 1945. Bar none, these two fighters are the most important planes Japan researches...




I have no idea if you are playing PDU:off or On, but I think that you will find it impossible to dedicate 10 factories to Frank and the A7M2 for PDU:off.


sure you can. PDU off game with Jocke I recall having 7 sentai of Frank A up and flying 1st squadron around mid 1943 (around June I think)...now, granted you have a point about the Sam upgrade which I recall is all from the A6M8 but you simply have to do it...and with the Sam's arrival date of mid 45, you won't be getting them till late 44 by which time you should have finished the A6M8.

You do need engine bonus for all planes r&d (oscar line, zero line, sam and frank).

I didn't skip plane builds either. My AAR with Jocke details a ton of plane r&d tactics with pdu off.




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/22/2018 3:24:20 AM >

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 15
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 2:44:32 PM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

PDU off or on is a big deal....but general advice good for either:

Put 10 factories each sized to 30 on each the Sam and Frank A. Look at all your r&d facilities and pick those that are researching oddball planes, especially non-fighters that won't arrive until 1945. Bar none, these two fighters are the most important planes Japan researches...




I have no idea if you are playing PDU:off or On, but I think that you will find it impossible to dedicate 10 factories to Frank and the A7M2 for PDU:off.


sure you can. PDU off game with Jocke I recall having 7 sentai of Frank A up and flying 1st squadron around mid 1943 (around June I think)...now, granted you have a point about the Sam upgrade which I recall is all from the A6M8 but you simply have to do it...and with the Sam's arrival date of mid 45, you won't be getting them till late 44 by which time you should have finished the A6M8.

You do need engine bonus for all planes r&d (oscar line, zero line, sam and frank).

I didn't skip plane builds either. My AAR with Jocke details a ton of plane r&d tactics with pdu off.






Frank is essential; there is no question about that, and multiple factories must be committed to Frank for the IJA to be competitive in mid-late 1943 and early 1944. I believe that I have 8 or 9 on Frank in my current games. I suppose one could put 8-10 on Sam, but this would require little or no R&D in Jill/Judy (which means that benefits of excellerating the 1944 CVs into 1943 are reduced) and little in Tojo and Tony. In PDU:on, this is no problem, because the Frank is versatile enough to handle most fighter tasks. However, in PDU:off, nearly 40% of the IJA is Tojo/Tony, and in my opinion, these two planes are very important and are better at some tasks than the first generation Frank. Obviously, this is more a question of styel and personal preference: a smaller, less diverse airforce that can gain an advantage in quality over the allies for a time or a larger, more diverse air-force that rarely (or never) has an advantage in quality, but is capable of covering a larger area effectively.

I like the whole Tojo line, and in my opinion, the IIc is a better CAP fighter at low altitudes than the Frank, because it can assemble in better numbers given the poor quality of Japanese radar. The first generation Tonies are very effective planes but handicapped severely by SR and range. There are so many squadrons of Tonies (especially in DBB) and so many extra Mitsubishi 33 engines (especially if you transition to Sam in 1944) that 3 or 4 factories on Tony seem more helpful than a few more on Frank. Again... this is mostly a question of what type of air-force Japan wants in 1944.

The point, I suppose, is that 10 factories on Sam and Frank is not a universal rule: at least not for PDU:off. To be honest, I have not played PDU:ON since my first game with the AI 8 or 9 years ago, so I have given no thought to air R&D for PDU:ON.

< Message edited by Aurorus -- 3/22/2018 2:47:08 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/22/2018 3:48:17 PM   
DanSez


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Joined: 2/5/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960
... By the way and for all we are playing PDU on and historical R&D on. I'm not sure what that means for accelerating R&D.


Realistic R&D ON/OFF.
It is the ability to shift Production Factories to R&D.

R&D factories will shift to Production on their own (and you lose their ability to R&D anything else including any air frames above this same line you are producing).

You need the 'OFF' setting to shift any Production factory toward R&D.
Example:
You have a Pete Factory (single engine float plane) which is a Production factory.
With Realistic R&D ON, you can not shift this factory to researching the A6M2-N Rufe float fighter.
With Realistic R&D OFF, you can.

'Realistic' is a label that sometimes gets more value than it deserves.


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Post #: 17
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/23/2018 3:00:23 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Frank is essential;


To me, in any non AV Japan game early, the Sam is far more important than Frank. It is especially true in a PDU off game. The Frank can be somewhat offset by the George/Jack until the Frank A comes around depending on mod. Not ideal, but somewhat doable.

But the June 45 start date of the Sam is an absolute killer and accelerating the Sams arrival adds so much more incremental lethality/tactical options for Japan.

Sam is the most important fighter in any non AV Japan game.


< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/23/2018 3:01:37 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/24/2018 12:19:37 PM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Thanks for taking the time ya'll! I'm still waiting on my opponent. I'll keep trying to figure these things out. If I am repairing factories, if I am repairing factories I know the buttons to 'add', but is there an immediate indication that things are 'in process'?


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Post #: 19
RE: IJ Engines & Airframes - 3/24/2018 12:28:10 PM   
dasboot1960


Posts: 389
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: St Augustine, Florida
Status: offline 		Oh! We are playing PDU 'on' with realistic R&D.

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