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T18 - 3/6/2018 10:36:20 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		T18

Not sure if the expected weather pattern has changed – or I am being lucky ... or have simply forgotten what has happened in past games. Anyway, only lost 1 bombing week to bad weather and it remains no worse than cloud/rain.

U-boats are back at 3.



Annoying. Prepared to ignore them when they are at 1-2 VP per turn but that is too much, especially as Danzig has almost repaired from its T1 raid.

So this determined my bombing approach. BC goes for Hannover (for a change), 8 AAF split into 4 single city/2 day each raids on the most likely U-boat problems. The 2 engined bombers of Tac Air go back to Paris (protected by a well rested FC) to hit the rail yards and trucks.

So the German bombing is:



And my return to Paris:



If that is correct then BC was reasonably effective.



FC overwhelmed the Luftwaffe protecting Paris.



But the bombers decided to hit everything apart from the rail yards. Need to apologise to De Gaulle [1].



8 AAF had varied impact. That should stop Flensburg repairing before the end of 1943.



Luebeck maybe, probably needs another visit.



Rostock was a bit of a disaster.



But that should keep Danzig non-productive.



Italy. Sardinia is now mine, have all the ports on Corsica so should finish off the German defenders in the next two turns.



AI gave me Brindisi. Note the TF repairing the level 2 port. In effect I am keeping one free of further landings to do this and to replace any that start to take heavy losses protecting a temp port.



[1] Overry's excellent Bombing War has a really interesting chapter on the decision making around Allied bombing of France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Clearly a constant trade off between hitting certain targets, that, to a point, Allied bombing raised morale but how a raid that turned out badly could be very counter-productive.

I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a good general overview of all the strategic bombing campaigns in WW2 (Allied, German and Soviet) and the intersection between operational planning, political issues and the different responses of the various civilian populations. He argues the only population where bombing produced active dissent was Italy (even before the surrender) in part as Italy was the only major power not to divert significant resources to coping with the effects.

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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 4:39:15 PM   
Chuske


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From: Exeter, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

[1] Overry's excellent Bombing War has a really interesting chapter on the decision making around Allied bombing of France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Clearly a constant trade off between hitting certain targets, that, to a point, Allied bombing raised morale but how a raid that turned out badly could be very counter-productive.

I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a good general overview of all the strategic bombing campaigns in WW2 (Allied, German and Soviet) and the intersection between operational planning, political issues and the different responses of the various civilian populations. He argues the only population where bombing produced active dissent was Italy (even before the surrender) in part as Italy was the only major power not to divert significant resources to coping with the effects.


Yes that book is excellent, really interesting too is the summary of how effective strategic bombing was or in most cases wasn't and in particular found that the effect on the German economy was nowhere near what was hoped and in particular Bomber Command probably wasted a lot of lives both of their crews and German civilians without having much effect on the war. The 8th AF did have the huge effect of destroying the effectiveness of the German fighters through killing pilots faster than they could be trained and forcing reduction in bomber production in favour of fighters and of redeployment of fighters particularly from the russian front. I seem to remember it was only the oil and transport targets that turned out to be effective, and that the Allies had totally missed how vulnerable the aero engine industry was as it had next to no "cushion".

Overy is a professsor at my old Uni in Exeter, UK too :)


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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 5:26:48 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		One question I have to the WitW experts and history buffs here is:
Would it not have been much more effective/efficient to focus completely on on or two branches of industry and infrastructure? I think about focusing on the fuel industry and the rail lines.
Damaging every industry by 10% will reduce the war capabilities of the country by 10%. But damaging one or two key industries to nearly 100% would render the intact industries useless.
Yes, the Axis can simply concentrate all flak there, but can they completely close the sky over the fuel industry on this way?
Protecting all rail lines is impossible.

And has such a strategy ever been tried out in WitW? I mean, if there is a chance to destroy the fuel industry, the Luftwaffe and mechanised forces would be useless from one day to another.
It means losing allot of VPs from submarines/V-Weapons etc. (I don't know how the VP system works in detail), but if you can collapse the Axis on this way and get to Berlin many months earlier it might be worth the effort?


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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 6:27:08 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuske


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

[1] Overry's excellent Bombing War has a really interesting chapter on the decision making around Allied bombing of France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Clearly a constant trade off between hitting certain targets, that, to a point, Allied bombing raised morale but how a raid that turned out badly could be very counter-productive.

I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a good general overview of all the strategic bombing campaigns in WW2 (Allied, German and Soviet) and the intersection between operational planning, political issues and the different responses of the various civilian populations. He argues the only population where bombing produced active dissent was Italy (even before the surrender) in part as Italy was the only major power not to divert significant resources to coping with the effects.


Yes that book is excellent, really interesting too is the summary of how effective strategic bombing was or in most cases wasn't and in particular found that the effect on the German economy was nowhere near what was hoped and in particular Bomber Command probably wasted a lot of lives both of their crews and German civilians without having much effect on the war. The 8th AF did have the huge effect of destroying the effectiveness of the German fighters through killing pilots faster than they could be trained and forcing reduction in bomber production in favour of fighters and of redeployment of fighters particularly from the russian front. I seem to remember it was only the oil and transport targets that turned out to be effective, and that the Allies had totally missed how vulnerable the aero engine industry was as it had next to no "cushion".

Overy is a professsor at my old Uni in Exeter, UK too :)



Interestingly one fan of the Bomber Command approach was Stalin. At Yalta when things got very sticky the Allies would arrange to brief him on those operations and it seemed to cheer him up and calm him down. In effect something designed to kill (which it did) and spread terror (which it didn't particularly) appealed to him.

I was very impressed with Overy's writing. Great as a summary, concise, handles the detail well and keeps a focus on some big issues.

Now, to strange coincidences. My first degree was from Exeter as well ..., even if I've moved a long way north since then

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

One question I have to the WitW experts and history buffs here is:
Would it not have been much more effective/efficient to focus completely on on or two branches of industry and infrastructure? I think about focusing on the fuel industry and the rail lines.
Damaging every industry by 10% will reduce the war capabilities of the country by 10%. But damaging one or two key industries to nearly 100% would render the intact industries useless.
Yes, the Axis can simply concentrate all flak there, but can they completely close the sky over the fuel industry on this way?
Protecting all rail lines is impossible.

And has such a strategy ever been tried out in WitW? I mean, if there is a chance to destroy the fuel industry, the Luftwaffe and mechanised forces would be useless from one day to another.
It means losing allot of VPs from submarines/V-Weapons etc. (I don't know how the VP system works in detail), but if you can collapse the Axis on this way and get to Berlin many months earlier it might be worth the effort?




As in WiTE, I personally think that WiTW is too generous about fuel production/usage. Its really not a constraint so in game I wouldn't hit it.

Having played the Axis in PBEMs, the two choke points are trucks and medium tanks. Run short of trucks and the mobility of the army falls apart (you know this from WiTE2), run short of medium tanks and your ability to recover from combat losses dips. Rail yards are more of a long game but the more you hit the more the axis need to use trucks, if you also hit the trucks then they lack the capacity to compensate.

I personally like the VP system. For U-boats and V-weapons its a way of modelling the consequences if you don't divert effort to deal with them. Going back to Overy and the British mass census that was run in the war years, its clear that the V-weapons had a morale impact beyond their real threat ... one argument is that the civilian population had made a psychological shift to expecting to be safe, esp after the liberation of France and suddenly there was a return of a threat.

It also reflects the near impossibility of getting Harris to listen or obey orders. He was going to bomb German population centres and it was a constant struggle to stop him. He even bombed Cologne the night before the British army entered the city.

So you have a neat system where the targets you know you want to hit are not the targets you can spare the resources to hit.

Theres a couple of air only scenarios in the game and I've tried different strategies in those. My feeling is going for the German core targets (trucks/tanks and trains) doesn't compensate for fully ignoring the VP bearing targets, but the game clearly allows you to make that decision. I think you'll struggle to get beyond a draw as all those bombing VPs mask the lost VPs once ground combat really starts. But you may well gain Berlin earlier. If I recall that is worth 100 VP/turn,

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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 7:46:16 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		Thanks for your explanations loki :)

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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 9:06:44 PM   
bomccarthy


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From: L.A.
Status: offline 		A good recent history of the effects of the bombing campaign can be found in Phillips Payson O-Brien, How the War was Won: Air-Sea Power and Allied Victory in World War II (Cambridge University Press, 2015). Don’t overlook the most in-depth studies in the US Strategic Bombing Survey and the official USAAF history (The Army Air Forces In World War II, Wesley Frank Craven and James Lea Cate, Eds.). Both of these sources are now in public domain and PDFs can be downloaded for free at various sites.

After the war, German industrial and policy leaders told Allied interrogators (primarily those with the US Strategic Bombing Survey) that one economic sector was key - transportation, specifically railyards and inland river ports in Germany. Anything that needed to be transported in large quantities had to move by rail and/or barge. And of all those products, coal was critical. Any industrial process that required heat (steel foundries, chemical plants, electric power generation - 75% of which was supplied by coal-fired plants) required large quantities of coal, as did the locomotives that moved everything. Moreover, the synthetic fuel that replaced petroleum-based fuels was converted from coal.

The Allies didn’t start the systematic and repeated bombing German railyards (as opposed to French/Belgian/Dutch railyards) until September 1944. Many recall that German industrial production peaked in September 1944; by December it had fallen off a cliff.

The USSBS noted the ineffectiveness of strategic bombing of other industrial sectors; however, it did note that the transportation campaign, which lasted from September until the end of the war, was effective in halting the movement of coal throughout Germany. Denied of more than just a trickle of coal, industrial production quickly broke down.

Ironically, the Allies felt during the war that the transportation campaign wasn’t working, because its primary objective, halting the rail movement of troops and ammunition at the front, didn’t seem to occur. It was only after Allied troops crossed the Rhine in March 1945 that intelligence analysts observed what had happened to German industry since October.

Rail transportation was considered so vital that German workers were pulled from factories into rail repair units (slave workers were considered too risky to work on rail repair). Even so, the amount of coal shipped in the Ruhr fell by almost 60% between September and October. By November factories were reduced to operating only when there was sufficient coal for their electrical generation plants, even though they had enough raw materials to produce at September levels for another year.

Within the transportation campaign, the bombing of railyards had a greater effect than shooting up railways and trains. Rail movement hinges upon railyards, where trains are put together and broken down, and where locomotives are repaired. Aside from turntables, railyards can be quickly repaired, so repeated strikes against the same yards are required over a long period of time. However, the Germans did find that some yards were hit so often that the bombs effectively “plowed” the ground, making it too soft to support repaired railbeds without the use of heavy compacting equipment, which had to be transported by rail ….


< Message edited by bomccarthy -- 3/6/2018 9:08:51 PM >

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RE: T18 - 3/6/2018 9:35:39 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
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From: L.A.
Status: offline 		With regard to targeting railyards in the game -- I have found that you can't replicate the strategic effects on German industry. It seems to keep producing even while all of the railyards are in the red.

However, I have noticed something in v.1.01.72 (beta before the most recent official update). I focused the 15th AF and the 12th Bomber Command (I prefer playing the Addl Air HQ scenario) exclusively on Italian railyards relatively close to the front line beginning in Sep '43 - I found that within 3-4 turns the supply state of almost all the Axis units opposing me was red for most turns. As a result, once I conducted a second invasion just north of Rome with 3 divisions in late December '43 I advanced relatively rapidly up the Italian boot. I didn't commit any ground or air units from England and the German AI formed defensive lines repeatedly; but, with little supply, they couldn't hold.

I broke into the Po River Valley in June '44 and captured Turin, Milan, and Venice by the end of July, pushing the Axis line to the Alps.

Repeating this railyard air strategy in France, I invaded Normandy in the last week of May, '44 and broke out of Normandy in the first week of July, much faster than in previous games. Again, almost all of the German units opposing me were in the red for supply by the end of June. The German AI formed a defensive line on the Seine, but I easily broke that in one week.

It is now the first week of Sept '44 and I have a line from the Swiss border to the Scheldt Estuary, having captured Brussels last turn and surrounded Antwerp. I had to slow the advance because I lacked reinforcements and ran out of admin points as I created new depots and marked several French railyards for priority repair. The German AI seems to be able to partially restore its supply situation every second or third turn before they all go in to the red again. I have decided to continue hitting the railyards relatively close to the frontline (hitting the same yards continuously) and using the 15th AF to do all of the "strategic" bombing (since I have gone over to the defensive in the Italian Alps).

I don't know if there was a change from previous versions, since I never repeatedly hit railyards already red in previous games - I usually hit them until they went red, then moved on. I recall some comments from the developers that repeated railyard strikes affects freight, so maybe this is what is hurting the German supply situation.

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RE: T18 - 3/7/2018 8:53:38 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		Thanks t you took :)
I did not think about coal at first but it was very important at this time.

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RE: T18 - 3/7/2018 7:11:14 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Thanks for the incredibly useful discussion and information. One of the reasons I keep on coming back to WiTW is the air war model. Its so interesting to both study the historical campaign and trying out ideas.

I do put the effort into clearing out the railyards in the combat regions. I also find some railway bombing (the 2E bombers seem to be good for this) also helps as it all escalates the cost of transport.

What would be interesting would be to really focus on a more strategic focus on the railyards. In theory you could (maybe) reduce the Germans to using trucks for resupply. If it worked, you should generate a global supply shortage for the Axis not just a localised one?

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T19 - 3/7/2018 7:12:52 PM   
loki100


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Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		T19

VP situation. Last turn's U-boat focus pays off but a problem is I have to rest all the 8 AAF fighter escorts (fatigue not low morale). Other issue is that I have slightly misdeployed in Italy so the fighting is falling on British not US units. Still running a +ve score.



Major German offensive near Bari – all those losses were British (hence the VP situation).



8 AAF I decided to commit in the Rhineland/Pfalz as I can cover that sector with an AS mission for Fighter Command. Useful block of damage to what are usually secondary targets.



BC went back to the Ruhr as I spotted a fair few targets either untouched or nearly repaired. That is an impressive haul.



Tac Air is back hitting rail yards etc in France and Belgium. Some mistakes but no harm to start knocking out the V-weapon launch sites – I like to have all the options along the coast knocked out before the start of 1944.



I've not mentioned much about my bombing strategy. I'm using the 2-engined bombers in S Italy to hit railyards and the 4-engined are going for Rome – and to knock out the local ports.

Italy – this shows the interdiction before any ground moves. Am struggling to get control over the sea lanes at Bari. Note the AI has given me a gift of Tarento.



Position after my moves.



Putting some pressure on around Reggio Calabria.





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T20-21 - 3/8/2018 8:19:37 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		T20-21

Two turns of heavy rain in NW Europe so simply rested the airforce in the UK – and upgraded to new types etc. Also flipped a lot of FC formations to 'bomber', gave them Typhoons and they are off to train for their new role.

Which leaves Italy. Heavier bombers are hitting rail yards around Rome. 2-eng bombers working over S Italy. Re-organised the air commands so the Malta command has control of the F/FB formations I've deployed at Bari so that Tactical Air can concentrate on Calabria and build up for the Rome landings.

Off Bari, finally have wrested some control over the seas.



On land by T21 had finished off the German divisions I bypassed. That powerful German force has been counter-attacking, fortunately all failed but with heavy losses for both sides.



Things went better in Calabria. I've been niggling away up the coastal flanks for the last 4 turns and finally got my reward. With well rested US armour to hand managed to exploit a victory and generate a pocket. I think I can push one division rapidly up to the toe and will land paras to seal off the region next turn.



VP for T21. Not sure why the U-boat score dropped from 2 to 1 with no bombing but not complaining. You can see the effect of the more sustained fighting in Italy in terms of my loss VP score.



Both Corsica and Sardinia are liberated, so have sent some of the units to reinforce the Bari landings. The rest I'll keep back as second wave reinforcements for the Rome invasion. Looking at the prep pts I think I can do a 2 hex landing in about 3 turns or 3 hexes in 5-6 turns. Need to think if its worth waiting.

2 hexes plus the Adriatic landings may be sufficient if (as I think) the AI has over-extended at Bari. Rome by early 1944 has a huge impact on the VP score.

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T22 - 3/9/2018 7:44:47 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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Snowfall in NW Europe so back to being able to bomb.

Not a moment too soon with my Bombing points <10. All things being equal I'm going to ignore the U-boats now unless I can hit some sites as part of another mission. I will try to pre-bomb the V2 sites though – they tend to repair quickly so need fairly constant attention.



8 AAF has gained from its rest and have over 1,400 bombers available. So decided on a deeper raid with a particular target. Magdeburg is something like 50% of the German Pzr IV production and is also a region with manpower and fuel. So with a decent number of longer ranged fighters to hand decide its time to shift to new targets.



The results were mixed. Mostly actually very good but I would have liked to do more damage to the tank production.



Couple of fighter battles worth discussing. Now I have Malta Air (with a different OOB to the at start set up) based at Brindisi this allows me to place an AS over the German ground and air units. Of value, this AS is engaging with German bombers trying to dispute my naval control as well.

This sort of result occurs when one side is both outnumbered and outclassed. Seeing German pilots with experience <70 is indicative that they are suffering losses to their at start pilot cadre and not really replacing them.

Also the battle occured at a height that suits my planes more than the Bf109s. Its not till mid-44 do the Germans deploy a fighter that likes that sort of altitude.



By contrast this happened when I was protecting the Tac Air raids. Interesting for two reasons – it shows how much the experience of my fighters has improved due to the constant use and the Germans will never replace experience 99 pilots.



BC went to the south of the Ruhr. Again the rest has given me an increased striking power.



Bomber Command celebrated its nights out over the Ruhr. The raids on Duisberg, Wuppertal and Essen being particularly effective. The other damage tops up already existing damage to those sites.



2 Tac Air is now going for railyards and V2 launch sites outside Germany. I'll divert some of the Halifaxes from BC to help out with this campaign.



Not tended to show the reports of bombing in Italy. But 15 Air's heavier bombers have been hitting transport links around Rome and it looks like the main railyard is now out of use (that +36 is added to an existing +20).



Rare large tank battle. When WiTW first came out I tried to avoid risky attacks I now just accept them. My logic is that you need to shed some loss related VP in order to make gains (hence the recent breakout in Calabria) and that will hurt the Germans. I have most of the local rail yards knocked out and have just (above) done some damage to their medium tank production. My guess is it will be some time before 16 Pzr recovers while I have a fresh Canadian tank division available.

As an aside – note the Germans are still attacking. These are producing some bruising battles with both sides losing around 2,000 men.



Overall situation in Italy. Pushed the regiments of one US tank division up the toe – moved an airborne regiment to Crotone as a garrison and the spare TF arrived to repair the port. Another airdrop still targettted to the north but don't want to risk the paras being isolated, so I'll drop or airtransport in conjunction with the arrival of the tanks.



Have a choice of invading at Rome next turn with 4 divisions (2 landings) or the turn after (I think) with 6 divisions. I'll keep an eye on the weather.

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RE: T20-21 - 3/9/2018 8:36:39 PM   
bomccarthy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

VP for T21. Not sure why the U-boat score dropped from 2 to 1 with no bombing but not complaining. You can see the effect of the more sustained fighting in Italy in terms of my loss VP score.



I have noticed that bombing/U-boat/V-weapon VP adjustments often seem to occur one turn after significant damage has been inflicted.

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RE: T22 - 3/9/2018 8:47:18 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
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From: L.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Bomber Command celebrated its nights out over the Ruhr. The raids on Duisberg, Wuppertal and Essen being particularly effective. The other damage tops up already existing damage to those sites.



Do you switch Bomber Command to daylight missions in 1944? I have found that Luftwaffe night fighters become extremely effective by Summer, inflicting major losses on bombers. With the advent of the Mustang III in the Spring, I usually transfer 6-8 Fighter Command squadrons to Bomber Command as daylight escorts and run daylight bombing missions only. If the 8th AF fighters have done their job, there is relatively little Luftwaffe daylight opposition until the Me-262 starts rearing its head in the Fall.

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RE: T22 - 3/11/2018 11:29:05 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

VP for T21. Not sure why the U-boat score dropped from 2 to 1 with no bombing but not complaining. You can see the effect of the more sustained fighting in Italy in terms of my loss VP score.



I have noticed that bombing/U-boat/V-weapon VP adjustments often seem to occur one turn after significant damage has been inflicted.


Not sure it should happen though. While other production is driven by the % damage, these should be binary, any damage = no VP lost, full production = vp. In contrast say a manpower factory will produce if the dice role (1-100) is > damage *2. So a 40% damaged factory has a 20% chance of fully producing in any one turn.

I'll keep an eye on it and see if it crops up again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Bomber Command celebrated its nights out over the Ruhr. The raids on Duisberg, Wuppertal and Essen being particularly effective. The other damage tops up already existing damage to those sites.



Do you switch Bomber Command to daylight missions in 1944? I have found that Luftwaffe night fighters become extremely effective by Summer, inflicting major losses on bombers. With the advent of the Mustang III in the Spring, I usually transfer 6-8 Fighter Command squadrons to Bomber Command as daylight escorts and run daylight bombing missions only. If the 8th AF fighters have done their job, there is relatively little Luftwaffe daylight opposition until the Me-262 starts rearing its head in the Fall.


I've not really noticed this but that may be a consequence of PBEM play. Most German players (incl me) will start to slowly scrap NF formations to fill out the gaps in the day fighters. The logic seems to be that unhindered 8 AAF will cause more damage than BC, also as it operates a bit lower BC is more easily hit by flak (as ever the key is damage = lost morale = resting formaitons).

Now I have the second generation P51s deploying I am going to start running AS missions over Germany. These tend to be very attritional, so you can't sustain it but are key to breaking the Luftwaffe as the fighters go looking for combat rather than focus on protecting the bombers.

I'd agree about the Me-262, from either side they don't make that much difference. The final set of allied piston planes can - sort of - handle them fairly well and even if the German player concentrates them they can't really overcome the structural weaknesses facing the Luftwaffe by late 1944.

When the game first came out, night bombing was not very effective and a lot of players opted to use BC on day raids. I never liked this as it clearly cut across British doctrine and now I find that night raids work out well. So I keep the strategic campaign as night bombing. But do move some Halifax formations into Tactical Air for day raids in France. Equally around the D-day landings use the Lancasters on day raids on the rail yards west of the Rhine.

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T23 - 3/11/2018 11:36:26 AM   
loki100


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VP score remains fairly stable. Since there are only 4 turns of U-boat scores left I am going to ignore that unless it slips up to 4. I'll hit some sites as part of other raids in any case.



Decided to split 8 AAF into two blocks. One repeated last turns attacks around Magdeburg. I'd like to knock out that Pzr IV production and I can then start to use 15 AAF on the plants in S Germany.

The other raid was designed to start degrading the V weapon sites along the Baltic. These repair quicker than the U-boats so are more of a distraction, even with the Allied build up of air power in 1944.



Results were not that good for either cluster. The main raids did knock out a lot of HI but didn't touch the AFV production.

Next turn will see the first deployment of the second generation P51s, at that stage I'll detach them from escort duties and put them onto AS. I can then hunt the Luftwaffe almost anywhere west of the Elbe.



The secondary raids were ineffective. Think I need to make this the prime focus of one week to knock down the production sites.



2 Tactical Air is now going after the launch sites and rail yards in NE France/Belgium. I'm reinforcing it by transferring some Halifaxes from BC as I like to have the rail net knocked out by early spring.



Bomber Command went for Hamburg. I've not really hit the manpower and HI here.



For some reason Harris clearly decided he now likes bombing U-boats ...



Italy. In the south the US armour push up the toe. There is a running pocket battle behind them. 7 Army attacks to break out at Bari.



Spent a while looking at the weather and my prep pts. In the end gamble that next turn will be no worse than rain but T25 might be heavy rain (there is a low pressure area moved into the W Med).

So decided on the 4 division landing model rather than wait. A British para division will also drop in support. Note the single division landing at Pescara.

I had a cluster of regimental drops planned for around Bari. In the end I didn't do these as I have poor recon and can't risk losing the equivalent of a US para division if the AI has reserves. Of course the advantage of this drop would have been to tangle up the German units fighting near Bari.



So Rome in time for the New Year?



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Post #: 76
T24 - 3/11/2018 8:51:04 PM   
loki100


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Ok, that turn was painful, Since I hadn't really allocated much naval air to protecting the Rome landings I took a fair amount of losses. Results in a turn of -ve VP.

My logic is that Rome itself is so valuable that those losses will pay themselves back.



But before more on Italy, time to do some bombing.

Decided to concentrate 8 AAF on the Baltic targets.



Which paid off fairly well.



Last turn I put the B-17s, Liberators and long range escorts of 15 AAF onto Sardinia. This brings S Germany and Austria into range. First target is Steyr with the bulk of the undamaged PzIV production (if I recall the final batch is at Nuremburg). The escorts cover the bombers over the Alps but not quite to the targets. The rest of 15 AAF is hitting rail yards in Tuscany and N Italy.

Hitting Germany is hard to sustain as the range means higher Op Losses and Fatigue.

If that is true then its one of the PzIV factories knocked out.



Tac Air carries on hitting NE France. Again worked out well.



BC decided to disturb Berlin's rest



To little real effect.



Italy. 8A is still in a running battle in Calabria. The German units are isolated but I can't quite pin them down. 7A is pushing north as fast as possible as the Germans ran away. I used air transport to place a US Para division at Pescara (I am finding this a very useful approach as clearly you run fewer risks than with a conventional drop). 5A is mostly ashore and can go over to the defensive till 7A arrives.

Supply is going to be a real problem till I have Naples so my next moves will depend on how well (if at all) that is defended.

Have sent 2 TF back to the UK, so need to start thinking about the invasion of France.



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Post #: 77
RE: T22 - 3/12/2018 9:38:11 PM   
bomccarthy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'd agree about the Me-262, from either side they don't make that much difference. The final set of allied piston planes can - sort of - handle them fairly well and even if the German player concentrates them they can't really overcome the structural weaknesses facing the Luftwaffe by late 1944.



I am interested to see how the Me-262 does in your current game. In my previous games my experience was similar to yours - they hurt, but not too badly. However, I first tried v1.01.72 with the 1945 Campaign scenario and now with the Add'l Air HQs campaign - I (irrationally) fear that something has changed. In a recent AS directive battle 300+ Mustangs took on approx 150 Bf-109s and Fw-190s and 44 Me-262s - my Mustangs first shot down close to 100 of the piston-engine planes, but the jets then joined the battle and very quickly shot down 42 Mustangs while losing only 12 of their own. And in the 1945 scenario, I suffered 1,200 air combat losses in a single turn, including more than 300 fighters; 600 of those were lost to Me-262s. This means in one week the game's Me-262s matched the real-life Me-262 record for the entire war (approx 500-700 Allied aircraft destroyed between Aug 1944 and April 1945).

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Post #: 78
RE: T22 - 3/13/2018 8:51:56 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'd agree about the Me-262, from either side they don't make that much difference. The final set of allied piston planes can - sort of - handle them fairly well and even if the German player concentrates them they can't really overcome the structural weaknesses facing the Luftwaffe by late 1944.



I am interested to see how the Me-262 does in your current game. In my previous games my experience was similar to yours - they hurt, but not too badly. However, I first tried v1.01.72 with the 1945 Campaign scenario and now with the Add'l Air HQs campaign - I (irrationally) fear that something has changed. In a recent AS directive battle 300+ Mustangs took on approx 150 Bf-109s and Fw-190s and 44 Me-262s - my Mustangs first shot down close to 100 of the piston-engine planes, but the jets then joined the battle and very quickly shot down 42 Mustangs while losing only 12 of their own. And in the 1945 scenario, I suffered 1,200 air combat losses in a single turn, including more than 300 fighters; 600 of those were lost to Me-262s. This means in one week the game's Me-262s matched the real-life Me-262 record for the entire war (approx 500-700 Allied aircraft destroyed between Aug 1944 and April 1945).


Thats interesting and plausible as sometimes small changes can create all sorts of problems. The air war seems to be particularly vulnerable to this.

In testing WiTE2 one of the starts is the Soviet Vistula-Berlin offensive and the VVS has been taking horrific (and unrealistic) losses - in part due to the way that experience trumps most other factors. But it may also be that certain plane characteristics have been emphasised, so when you add in an unusual plane like the Me-262 it has gained a lot compared to past experience (the air code afaik is the same as in WiTW).

Add to that to the things to keep an eye out for

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T25-T26 - 3/13/2018 9:35:12 AM   
loki100


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Both these turns had blizzard conditions in NW Europe so again rested the Allied airforces in the UK. In Italy bombing was limited to tactical missions and the German rail yards.

VP situation for T26. Note that Rome is producing a real boost to the city line.



Situation on the ground for T25, by T26 had almost linked up the Pescara and Rome landings and some armour has arrived at Pescara. Note that Naples was undefended and Bari just captured. These two turns saw a lot of German attacks on my lines north of Rome.

Still some fighting in Calabria but most the German units now destroyed so 8A can push north.

Need to think about what to do in Italy now. One problem is that till Naples is repaired, supply is a real problem so will probably have to pause in any case. Also need some of the units (and airpower) back in the UK.

Main question is what is worth fighting for. Find that Rome is the real prize and secondary gains are as much lost combat VP as anything.

Anyway started to prepare some further divisional landings up the Adriatic coast but otherwise will rest and let the supply net improve.



Also need to start planning for France. Have 2 TF in UK ports so time to pick a spot. I'll briefly discuss what I think are the options.

In the maps I've marked both possible landing sites and where the TF would need to stay to maintain the ports.

NE France has some advantages. Its so close to the UK that FB can often operate without fuel tanks (note in the UK I am building up every airbase I can). You are to the east of the Seine so that undermines an important German defensive line. It takes out a lot of the V-weapon sites.

Problem is that you will need to divert units to the west to clear out the bigger ports so that weakens any offensive. Also the initial battles are grim as you have no defensive protection.

Here I think there are two blocks. Around Boulogne and at the mouth of the Somme. Boulogne is a mess of disconnected landings (even if you risk a Dieppe style direct assault), you need 3 TF to protect the landing ports and at least one will take attrition (unless you capture Boulogne).

The Somme option is better. I've used this against the AI before and its TF efficient, gives you a connected set of beach-heads and you can use the Somme itself to protect one of your flanks. I think this is a good spot. Only main weakness is you only get one rail yard as a result.



Normandy. There is nothing much wrong with variants of the historical landings. The terrain protects you, its TF efficient, but the actual breakout is a challenge and you will then (at least in PBEM) face the problem of crossing the Seine.

Second option is to split the landings around Le Havre. This is a bit of an odd choice but my logic is that you will not take Le Havre easily (but you can isolate it using Paratroops). You'll have to abandon one of your landing ports (too much naval attrition from Le Havre) but otherwise you are to the east of the Seine but well placed to take the Brittany ports and Paris.



Finally Brittany. Issue here is you are a long way to the West and most German players will have time to set up around Paris. But I've seen AARs with the St Malo landings and it can be effective. Usually a quick easy breakout, you should take St Malo quick enough to avoid too much naval attrition.

But you are a long way from the UK for airpower, so this will cost fatigue, load outs and operational losses.



Since this is also the end of 1943, few contextual charts. No surprise for the bombing VP chart. On balance I think that 55 morale has proved to be a good choice (before I've tended to set it higher) and 2-3 days/week has meant a sustained steady effort with no pauses (apart from for weather).



Air losses. Substantial variation turn by turn but on balance the ratio looks like .9:1 (axis:allied).



Detailed air loss charts. Lost planes actually in my favour but the pilots at a ratio of .6:1. Again that suits me as I can (mostly) replace, the Germans can't.



This just shows the German losses. The Bf-109s have had a real battering, in part related to my aggressive use of FC and its Spitfires.



Finally land losses. Bit misleading as a lot of the Axis captured will have been Italian formations that were cut off in the Sicily battles.

One issue is that even though I have started to bomb their tank production I doubt I've knocked out enough German tanks to make much of a difference yet. Goal really is to eliminate German replacement capacity so that the Pzr divisions become fragile and find it hard to replace their losses.



So T27 brings 1944 and planning for France.

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RE: T25-T26 - 3/15/2018 8:24:42 PM   
bomccarthy


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Status: offline 		Do you have a system for refitting ground units? I didn't used to (spent most of my time trying to master the air game), but I recently started using the Commander's Report to assign "Refit" to any unit whose TOE dropped below 75%. I also make "Ready" any unit whose TOE exceeds 85% (so that they don't deny replacements to the units that really need it). It seems to be helping maintain the CV of most units in turns where it is hard to rotate units back to a supply dump for R&R.

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RE: T25-T26 - 3/15/2018 9:25:45 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

Do you have a system for refitting ground units? I didn't used to (spent most of my time trying to master the air game), but I recently started using the Commander's Report to assign "Refit" to any unit whose TOE dropped below 75%. I also make "Ready" any unit whose TOE exceeds 85% (so that they don't deny replacements to the units that really need it). It seems to be helping maintain the CV of most units in turns where it is hard to rotate units back to a supply dump for R&R.


In WiTW the refit routine is a bit obscure as it gets caught up with (a)do you have enough supplies/delivery capacity; (b) priority of depots; and (c) priority of HQs. In addition it depends if you have the needed equipment anywhere (which is why I am bombing German medium tank production).

My view is all this comes together very differently for the Axis and the Allied sides and also varies a bit by theatre.

So for the Axis in France and anywhere apart from S Italy in 1943 you have no meaningful delivery constraint (ie you have the rail cap to move what you need to move). So a good trick is to set every depot in France to #4 and every HQ in France to #4 for the first few turns. That pulls massive amounts of supply and reinforcements into the relevant units, gives you a safety net for the garrison rules and really sets up those theatres for when the fighting starts in 1944. To assist this I pretty much put them all on refit.

S Italy is different as you can't deliver all you need (and that is before the Allies make it worse by bombing your rail net). So there, yes, I use various rules to try and make sure that the key units get the resources they need. But this is refit+HQ status. Its a bit unintuitive but a HQ at level #1 priority gets the first tranch of supplies at the same time as one at #2 (or higher). What the levels do is to determine how much % of need a command can gain (if that supply exists). So a #3 or a #4 will fill out to a higher level (both supplies and reinforcements/replacements) but only if you have enough for everyone's level #1 needs. So trying to refit in a supply poor region can be frustrating.

By 1945, assuming the Allies have managed the air war, you have the opposite problem. Massive shortages of everything and limited delivery capacity.

The Allies its more locational. In the main you have few global shortages so its all a case of delivery. I tend to have most units in the UK on refit and linked to #4 priority commands - esp the units I am going to use for the invasion of France and the armour. You want these fit and chunky for the tasks ahead but there is not much need to prioritise too carefully in the UK.

Italy in turn is a problem. You have a supply delivery problem there, so if you set all your HQs to #4 quite simply its akin to making no decisions at all. Refit in Italy often means pulling units off the line, basing them at Naples or Rome can help (both are large rail yards and thus high supply capacity).

France sort of is in-between. Once you get the Normandy/Brittany ports you have ok supply but you really need to prioritise its allocation or again ... everybody gets too little. So leaving units to the rear, esp say in Paris can help those units refit quite nicely. You certainly need to rotate stuff off the line or you enter 1945 with a collection of 1/2 cv ants ... and your only salvation is that the German army is no better off.

So when I play WiTE1/2, I regard the % ToE and the refit status as the key tools, in WiTW you have to take account of delivery capacity and HQ priorities (WiTE2 has similar rules but you are mostly dealing with overland supply). This gives me three dynamics

1) supply rich environment (remember that the supply net distributes freight which becomes fuel, supply, ammo and replacments), and lots of relevant equipment. ... You might as well fill out your army, prioritise if you want to focus things;
2) supply poor environment ... you need to use the depot/HQ priorities to assist the process. Even at the best, if you need to refit a formation then often it needs to move out of the sector;
3) supply ok environment ... sort of similar to #2 but you can be a bit less obsessive, but you still want to control the flow and that is via refit+ToE+depot/HQ

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T27 - 3/15/2018 9:43:53 PM   
loki100


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First VP chart for 1944. All my bombing pts have gone (remember the divisor is much higher now) but Rome is compensating. I'll drive down the V-weapon score this turn.



As part of that campaign, shift 8 AAF to the area around Nordhausen. Have the V-weapon factory as the priority and will let the bombing routine pick up secondary targets.

The P-51s are in the same zone but with an AS mission and no longer primarily just there to protect the bombers.



The bombing didn't really pay off (unless you are factory owner in Bitterfeld) so I may repeat the missions next turn but with more focus.



The P-51s seem to get caught up over the Netherlands, but did a lot of damage.



Tac Air went for the remaining V-weapon sites in France and ports and rail capacity. Not that effective.



Gave Bomber Command a change of scenery. I have this enduring belief that it is effective at bombing around Hannover.



And the evidence, not surprisingly, proves me wrong again. Back to the Ruhr next turn.



Not much happens in Italy. Basically trying to build up for a renewed offensive but this means a lot of redeploying and letting the depots fill out. I am going to start to pull some units out to return to the UK (partly to prepare for France but also I have too many units to properly supply on the current front line).

Also converting a lot of FB-F formations to FB and starting to create US 9 Air.

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T28 - 3/20/2018 8:09:08 PM   
loki100


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Apols for gap in posts – this has been half written for a while but suddenly had a huge influx of work.

I'll not report the VP chart so much from now on as largely I find 1944 you simply have to do certain things (that will cost VP) and its relatively easy to keep the Bombing/V-weapon score about zero. V-weapon sites do repair faster than the U-boats but are also a lot more vulnerable. So last turn's focus on them paid rewards.

My goal is to end the Summer roughly where I am now, ie on the upper end of a draw. At that stage hopefully city VP will build up quickly and will start to add some 'bombing' VP for having captured the relevant factories.



Bomber Command back to what it does best.



Except actually it didn't. Weather conditions resulted in just a single raid taking place.



US 8 AAF I put together two related missions. One was a designated raid on the V-weapon factory at Nordhausen and the other was a wider raid on HI, AFVs etc in the same broad area. Also note the P-51s are now flying AS rather than escorts.



I guess the V-weapon raid was a success.



The main raid was ineffective but the AS missions paid off.



15 Air managed a decent raid on Steyr, slowly reducing that cluster of factories (and that is 50% of the German Pzr IV production).



Tac Air carries on hitting v-weapon launch sites and rail yards.



Situation in Italy. Need to think about what I want to do now. Its not really worth taking lots of losses to make more gains, but you can force a serious diversion of German effort here if you press hard enough. Anyway for the moment, letting supply build up, preparing some small landings and pulling out a few units to return to the UK.



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RE: T28 - 3/20/2018 9:16:41 PM   
bomccarthy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Situation in Italy. Need to think about what I want to do now. Its not really worth taking lots of losses to make more gains, but you can force a serious diversion of German effort here if you press hard enough. Anyway for the moment, letting supply build up, preparing some small landings and pulling out a few units to return to the UK.



Pushing hard in Italy really paid off for me in my current game. I didn't divert any ground or air assets from England, but by bombing the railyards in Italy every turn with heavy and medium bombers from 15th AF and Tactical AF I apparently weakened the German ground forces to an incredible degree. They were in the red for supply almost every turn and seemed to be receiving relatively few replacements.

I had the 15th AF ignore strategic targets (left those to 8th AF and BC), except for two weeks of strikes on the Ploesti region, which wrecked the refineries until the USSR captured them. I also used Tactical AF FBs to target 3-4 railway chokepoints on the western side of Italy every turn (committed (2)16-plane strikes per hex each day - which kept the hexes at 30,000 points of rail usage and level 9 interdiction). Even when all of the railyards were in the red, I kept them targeted. This apparently hits supply, as well as available rail cars.

After a second invasion in the same place as yours in early Jan '44, I was able to break into the Po River Valley in late May and take all of Northern Italy by the middle of July. This enabled me to send almost all of the motorized units, as well as all US and non-British UK infantry, through Southern France (after a relatively small S. France invasion in July) to join the 21st Army Group in Belgium by the end of Sept.

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RE: T28 - 3/21/2018 8:57:39 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Situation in Italy. Need to think about what I want to do now. Its not really worth taking lots of losses to make more gains, but you can force a serious diversion of German effort here if you press hard enough. Anyway for the moment, letting supply build up, preparing some small landings and pulling out a few units to return to the UK.



Pushing hard in Italy really paid off for me in my current game. I didn't divert any ground or air assets from England, but by bombing the railyards in Italy every turn with heavy and medium bombers from 15th AF and Tactical AF I apparently weakened the German ground forces to an incredible degree. They were in the red for supply almost every turn and seemed to be receiving relatively few replacements.

I had the 15th AF ignore strategic targets (left those to 8th AF and BC), except for two weeks of strikes on the Ploesti region, which wrecked the refineries until the USSR captured them. I also used Tactical AF FBs to target 3-4 railway chokepoints on the western side of Italy every turn (committed (2)16-plane strikes per hex each day - which kept the hexes at 30,000 points of rail usage and level 9 interdiction). Even when all of the railyards were in the red, I kept them targeted. This apparently hits supply, as well as available rail cars.

After a second invasion in the same place as yours in early Jan '44, I was able to break into the Po River Valley in late May and take all of Northern Italy by the middle of July. This enabled me to send almost all of the motorized units, as well as all US and non-British UK infantry, through Southern France (after a relatively small S. France invasion in July) to join the 21st Army Group in Belgium by the end of Sept.


Fair points. I agree with taking out the Italian rail net and you have a lot of bombers good for that purpose already in the Med theatre. Guess I am prepared to trade off a bit of this for some strat bombing of S Germany/Austria as there are a lot of nice targets in range. If you do this you may need to concentrate on either the rails running down from Bologna or on the Adriatic coast so as to really hamper one of the Axis flanks.

My last PBEM really taught me the reward for an Allied player who persists in Italy. Combined with botching my management of the EF box, his continuous pressure, incl lots of small invasions had me retreating in N Italy by mid-1944 which set up a disastrous situation.

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T29-T30 - 3/21/2018 9:03:07 PM   
loki100


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Conflating a couple of turns as T29 saw heavy snow/blizzards and all the UK air was grounded. Equally still building up in Italy.

My goals over this phase of the game are limited and all really aimed at the landings in France.

For VP, I am content to balance out V-weapon losses for Strat bombing gains. Till the weather improves, I am struggling to do much damage. This maybe a bit false as recon is poor due to the weather as well. Equally as we move closer to the landings, more of the Strategic bombing force will be diverted to taking out the railnet.

Am converting a lot of FB-F to FB, especially where they have planes with good load outs for ground attacks or can be converted/upgraded to something useful. So the Hurricane II is a decent choice, not as good as the Typhoon but pretty effective as is the P47-15. The latter are being allocated to US 9 Air as they return from training.

For the moment, the 2 engined bombers of 2 Tac Air are going for v-weapon launch pads and rail yards. For family reasons I always feel a bit odd at ordering airstrikes on the Netherlands.



Two turns of P51 AS missions are starting to really hit the Luftwaffe. In a PBEM as the axis you know its the beginning of the end of the Luftwaffe as an effective force when the Allies adopt this stance.




US 8 Air still going for strategic targets rather than VP. In the circumstances not a bad result.



Bomber Command claims an impressive result – not sure I believe them.



US 15 Air niggling away in S Germany with the B-17s but the bulk are hitting the Italian rail net (along with the 2 Engined bombers in Tac Air).




On T30, finally launched an attack north of Rome. Broke the line but the attempt to exploit was stopped by a reserve reaction by a PzrGr division.

Have been using the 1 hex interdiction trick. You can get high scores with not too many planes and it effectively isolates a single stack – combined with damaging the rail net these will receive little if any freight.



For France, 3 invasion hexes now chosen and preparing. Still have 3 TF in the Med – one preparing, one keeping open a temp port near Rome and the last rotating to repair.

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T31-T32 - 3/22/2018 8:25:44 AM   
loki100


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Again the turns are conflated as T31 saw almost no strategic air action but T32 was better weather – and clear in Italy.

One important shift in T32 was the massive Axis air losses. Many were due to operational reasons but also due to my ongoing AS campaign. My working assumption is this is the critical point in the air war as the Luftwaffe has had to abandon relying on trained pilots and is using lower experienced pilots – who in turn tend to increase losses radically.

If so, I can accelerate my current process of converting FB-F to FB formations.

This shows the air losses – and for the Axis by plane type – in T32:



And the results of the P-51 sweeps on that turn. I'm no longer linking this to the deployment of the strategic bombers and instead simply going where I think the Luftwaffe can be found.



For the rest of the strategic war, 15 Air hit Munich for a change and the Italian rail net. Till the weather improves over the Alps I am going to suspend the raids into S Germany as – I think – I am getting a better reward off the rail campaign.

In OOB terms, all the 2 and 4 engined bombers in the Med are now in 15 Air and the FB formations are split between Tactical Air (supporting 5A) and Malta Air (supporting 7A).



8 AAF went for the Baltic coast to hit the v-weapons again and other targets.



BC attacked to the south of the Ruhr.



2 Tactical Air is active degrading the rail net and returning to the v-weapon launch sites as I can.



Offensive north of Rome continued with heavy fighting. On T31 my attempt to exploit last turn's gains failed.

Note that the rail line up the Adriatic to Pescara is fully repaired now. The other line will reach Naples by T33.



The Germans clearly don't like my gains and made 2 large attacks in response.



In turn I shifted to a weaker target. Broke open their defensive line but again the exploitation attack failed.



If the bulk of the Axis airforce had a bad week, as you can see there, it was very effective. Looking at the detail can be informative and it appears as if they have a cluster of highly experienced Italian pilots available.



To the south, 8A took Gaeta. First attack just failed – frustratingly I'd forgotten to move the TF into position to support.



Doing a second attack immediately is not usually a good idea in WiTW. But here I could add fresh naval guns so gambled.

The German defenders were mostly disrupted before the actual assault occured.



VP scores. As intended, more or less keeping bombing VP- v weapon VP neutral. The small loss for T31 was part of the reason to move 8 AAF to the Baltic on T32.

The outbreak of heavy fighting in Italy is wiping out any VP gain. Hope though is it will pay off with more city VP for the summer of 1944.



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T33 - 3/23/2018 11:08:09 AM   
loki100


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Weather slowly improving and so is bombing effectiveness.

Since I am making (some) progress in Italy have stopped using 15 Air in S Germany and its all aimed at the Italian rail net. I think I can manage another 10 or so turns of active operations in Italy before I really need to pull out planes and some combat formations to support the invasion of France.

Sticking with Italy, here's the end of turn. On the west not just managed to break the line again but this time managed to exploit. Strongly suspect that Polish brigade is going to be battered but it all helps to build up momentum.

On the east the naval landing with a single brigade reached 50% preparation so ordered it to attack. If there is any opposition its doomed so no real gain to having a higher number of PP. I've sent a US infantry division and will fly in a Para regiment (next turn) to give me a fairly solid stack.

And then start preparing another similar invasion closer to Rimini.



In the air, BC attacks to the east of the Ruhr. Basically will hit a cluster of small targets.



Worked out ok, Kassel itself was badly hit. Again the Germans are losing the air battle badly.



On which subject, the P-51s continue to do AS sweeps to the west of the Oder. This one was set up around the path chosen for 8 Air to give it more protection.

Looking at some of the detailed reports, the average experience of the German pilots is reducing rapidly.

Realise this is vs AI, and that a German player wouldn't have engaged with my FC sweeps in the summer/autumn of 1943 but this is by far the earliest I have seen this collapse of the Luftwaffe. In a PBEM you can delay it into the autumn.

I think it supports the logic to using FC aggresively in 1943, even if I did actually run out of Spitfires as a result. It also allows me to convert more squadrons from FB-F to FB which makes the impact of tactical air all the more devastating in France.



Tac Air back to the Netherlands as that v-weapon site is hard to keep suppressed.



Since I seem to have air superiority, 8 Air goes somewhere new. Time for a day time raid on Berlin.


Which proves to be devastating. Nice collection of VP targets and a lot of damage to the Stug production.

Again, note how ineffective the German fighters were.



So, unless I am really misreading the situation, that is the Luftwaffe finished as a dangerous force. The advantage to me now is that I can accelerate converting FB-F to FB and risk using lower levels of escorts for the bombers. Equally I can risk pushing 8 AAF outside its main fighter cover (into areas like SW Germany which has some juicy but isolated targets).

I've tried three things I've not done before:

a) FC as a very aggressive AS function – I had someone do this to me in a PBEM and while I could minimise it by careful deployment it was a constant source of losses. Negative is it was out of planes by October 1943 but there is a bit of so what to this. I start converting British and Canadian formations to FB and re-equipping with Typhoons and Hurricanes at that stage in any case.

b) using 55 as my morale cut off. I've tended to go higher, around 70, but this has not seen any real increase in my losses and its allowed me to keep a sustained bombing effort linked to

c) only using the Strat bombers 2-3 days a week means I have had little problem with fatigue or forcing beaten up formations to fly again (this does tend to generate operational losses)

My guess is that b+c gave me lower bombing VP for the first 10 or so turns but by the time I reached 10 per turn in 1943 I could sustain that relatively easily. One thing that doesn't work is pushing a tired strategic bombing force or risking raids with a limited bomber force. Early game, mass compensates for recon problems and also stops a small raid being dismantled if caught out badly by the Luftwaffe.

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(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 89
T34 - 3/26/2018 10:13:34 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		T34

Quick check of the VP screen indicates two small (ahem) problems. The V-weapon loss is now up to 3 and I'd like that reduced back to 2 (or lower) and I am losing VP as a result of the Italian offensive.



Decide to deal with the first issue by altering my Strategic bombing strategy. Shifted Bomber Command to the region around Frankfurt but on the usual HI/Manpower attack. But this time I have 8AAF four single city targets and assigned the planes to each. Each raid has a different type of target but is mostly either v-weapon production or medium tanks/trucks.

This shows the overall pattern over Germany. Note the AS is set up to provide additional cover.



Produced another very bad turn for the Luftwaffe. All my P51 squadrons are reduced in strength but this has proved devastating. Just to add to the Luftwaffe's misery, FC is back hunting them in France. I basically traded 128 fighters for 363.



Bomber Command was reasonably effective.



8 AAF had mixed results. Stuttgart escaped without too much damage.



Hopefully that ends V-weapon production at Nordhausen



And at Ulm



And did some damage to the Pzr V production at Nuremberg.



While all this was going on, Tactical Air continued to bomb the Netherlands.



So on balance that should help with the V-weapon problem. Now my bright idea to deal with the land casualty VP problem was ... to attack.

On the Adriatic I needed to reach the landing site so attacked with well rested infantry and armour from 7A. Mostly went well apart from the final attacks.

Above Rome decided to see if I could exploit the weakened German line. Well did make some gains but not really enough to justify all the efforts.



Here's a list of all the battles. Feels more like I am recreating the Somme offensive than what I'd like to achieve.



And the total ground losses reflects that.



The good thing is that the Italian rail system is bombed out so the Germans should be struggling to replace their losses.

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