Why are zombie units so hard to kill?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Why are zombie units so hard to kill?

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Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 2:41:22 PM

jwolf

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By "zombie" here I mean enemy non-combat units such as HQ and base support that are left after a successful capture of their base. My most recent example: June 1944, the Chinese have just taken Hong Kong and all Japanese defenders were wiped out except for a Fleet HQ unit. After one day of rest, I attacked with 3 Chinese corps, AV of about 1100. The enemy unit was given a token AV of 1, presumably to avoid a division by zero. My units were fresh with very little if any disruption. And the grand result: about 30 enemy casualties, all disabled and not killed.

Based on earlier situations of this type, I expect similar results until the enemy supply is exhausted, when they will finally collapse quickly. What is going on that allows these units to hold out so long against overwhelming odds, with so few casualties?

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 3:08:28 PM

Yaab

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At this level of abstraction, I think they morph into a guerrilla unit. Disappear into a jungle, crawl into a cave... Think of your battle as a mop-up operation, and not pitched battle per se. You are really trying to FIND the enemy in the hex and they continually evade your troops. When you disable them, you simply scatter them... The enemy can endure well after the war ends,just like in RL.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 3:10:20 PM

Yaab

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BTW, If you really want to kill them, try bombing them with aircraft.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 3:17:20 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

At this level of abstraction, I think they morph into a guerrilla unit. Disappear into a jungle, crawl into a cave... Think of your battle as a mop-up operation, and not pitched battle per se. You are really trying to FIND the enemy in the hex and they continually evade your troops. When you disable them, you simply scatter them... The enemy can endure well after the war ends,just like in RL.

+1 . This sounds right, and HQ units are often the last units in a stack to have supply - I suppose because the programming makes HQs supply magnets so they get whatever trickles in. They also don't use any in actual combat because they have no weapons to shoot it off, so their supply lasts longer than combat units.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 3:39:57 PM

Lokasenna

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Bullwinkle and I have long thought there's something funny going on with HQ units in particular. They just don't die when they should and often stick around as units that just won't die - suffering minimal casualties, disruption, and morale loss in 200:1 odds attacks.

Seen it over and over.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 3:55:38 PM

HansBolter

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Some HQ units are very large and I believe every two support squads counts as a token combat squad so they take a very long time to kill off.

The non-combat squads given a token assault value must also have a very limited firepower value.

I agree with the general sentiment that there is something screwy in the way they are modeled.

With experience we all come to know what it takes to kill them off, lots and lots of time and attrition.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 4:06:55 PM

Macclan5

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+1 ..caves, guerrilla fighting, etc.

Because of the example set Mitsuru Ushijima ?

Battle of Okinawa April 1 - June 21

The last remnants of Japanese resistance ended on June 21, although some Japanese continued hiding, including the future governor of Okinawa Prefecture, Masahide Ōta.[44] Ushijima and Chō committed suicide by seppuku in their command headquarters on Hill 89 in the closing hours of the battle. Colonel Yahara had asked Ushijima for permission to commit suicide, but the general refused his request, saying: "If you die there will be no one left who knows the truth about the battle of Okinawa. Bear the temporary shame but endure it. This is an order from your army Commander."[45] Yahara was the most senior officer to have survived the battle on the island, and he later authored a book titled The Battle for Okinawa. On August 15, 1945, Admiral Matome Ugaki was killed while part of a kamikaze raid on Iheyajima island. The official surrender ceremony was held on September 7,

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 4:37:16 PM

GetAssista

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Guerilla warfare does not explain why exactly HQs are so adept at it, and not the usual rank and file infantry

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 4:43:09 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Guerilla warfare does not explain why exactly HQs are so adept at it, and not the usual rank and file infantry

The guys get into the HQ by being good at avoiding combat!

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 5:03:14 PM

adarbrauner

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A hex symbolizing-simulating a 40x 40 miles. Go and find those 1200 or less troops who do not seek combat. On the contrary: the game is too much generous in enabling 100% of time contact and direct combat between units in a hex, even if a company against another one...

War In the East obviated to some, or many, of these shortcomings.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 5:12:29 PM

Aurorus

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When suffering attacks with high odds against them, Japanese units will make a check to banzai charge rather than surrender. I think what happens with Japanese HQ units is that they pass the check to banzai rather than surrender (because of generally high leadership), but they are incapable of making a banzai attack because they have 0 AV. This results in nothing happening, and the unit continues in existence rather than being destroyed as any unit with AV would. This is merely a guess, however, as to why Japanese HQs are so difficult to destroy.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 5:42:46 PM

Dili

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Did you tried a shock attack?

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 6:34:17 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Did you tried a shock attack?

Not yet, in this particular instance: I've only had time for the one deliberate attack mentioned at the beginning.

Thanks for all the comments. The suggestion that the enemy unit disperses into a guerilla role might make sense in some cases, but it's harder to believe for an HQ unit. Also it would be a lot more plausible in Japanese home territory, as Okinawa, as opposed to Hong Kong where I am sure that everyone hated them and there was no safe refuge anywhere.

At Hong Kong, this isn't really a problem. My victorious army needs some downtime for R+R, and this low intensity fight for a little while won't hurt anything. In other places, an enemy holdout will block rail movement and supply flow. In still others, such as small islands, it makes it take longer to pull out units and end overstacking.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 7:25:41 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

By "zombie" here I mean enemy non-combat units such as HQ and base support that are left after a successful capture of their base. My most recent example: June 1944, the Chinese have just taken Hong Kong and all Japanese defenders were wiped out except for a Fleet HQ unit. After one day of rest, I attacked with 3 Chinese corps, AV of about 1100. The enemy unit was given a token AV of 1, presumably to avoid a division by zero. My units were fresh with very little if any disruption. And the grand result: about 30 enemy casualties, all disabled and not killed.

Based on earlier situations of this type, I expect similar results until the enemy supply is exhausted, when they will finally collapse quickly. What is going on that allows these units to hold out so long against overwhelming odds, with so few casualties?

jwolf:

Are you playing PBEM or against the AI? Against the latter-particularly on 'hard' or 'very hard' settings, all units derive some supply regardless of LOS control and cannot effectively be attritioned by the traditional "starve 'em out" approach.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 7:42:18 PM

jwolf

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It is AI, and hard difficulty. I don't know just how much "bonus supply" trapped AI units get, but in practice they do get supply combat penalties after a while. So maybe not totally out of supply, but not nearly enough to stay viable as a fighting unit.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/22/2018 11:44:43 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

It is AI, and hard difficulty. I don't know just how much "bonus supply" trapped AI units get, but in practice they do get supply combat penalties after a while. So maybe not totally out of supply, but not nearly enough to stay viable as a fighting unit.

Yes, something like that. I think this may explain the majority of what you are seeing.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/23/2018 7:24:51 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Are you playing PBEM or against the AI? Against the latter-particularly on 'hard' or 'very hard' settings, all units derive some supply regardless of LOS control and cannot effectively be attritioned by the traditional "starve 'em out" approach.

You can attrition them on 'hard' just fine, they do not get supply out of thin air. Although attrition in this case means fighting/bombing because they do not die from hunger alone.
'very hard' is another matter.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/23/2018 8:35:21 AM

LargeSlowTarget

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Guerilla warfare does not explain why exactly HQs are so adept at it, and not the usual rank and file infantry

The guys get into the HQ by being good at avoiding combat!

REMF = Roving Evasion Main Force

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/23/2018 11:20:28 PM

Lokasenna

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A shock attack will give you the same results, just with larger odds.

I'll be shocked if you kill more than 100 of them if you killed 39 in your last DA with 200:1 odds.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/24/2018 12:43:20 AM

Dili

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That would be nice to know

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/24/2018 4:19:57 PM

Yaab

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I guess you need a weapon with the highest possible anti-soft rating to kill the remnants. 320mm spigot mortar, perhaps? And if army weapons fail, there is alwyas a 500lb GP bomb...

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/24/2018 10:34:30 PM

BBfanboy

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Patience folks! Here is the progress of the reduction of an intact IJ AA unit I trapped in wooded terrain. It was cut off from supply, but started out fully supplied.

Working them over was a US Separate Infantry Rgt. of 131 AV. Each attack was a DA.

Day 1 - AA unit disruption after DA: 4
Day 2 - AA unit disruption after DA: 12
Day 3 - AA unit disruption after DA: 46
Day 4 - AA unit disruption after DA: 97
Day 5 - AA unit eliminated

After each attack the Inf. Rgt fatigue stayed at 3.
I did not monitor the supply levels in the AA unit after each attack.
AA unit casualties were marginal until day 4. Allied casualties were nil.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/25/2018 4:30:46 PM

Lokasenna

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This happening, specifically against HQ units, is a thing.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 12:00:25 AM

jwolf

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Postmortem report, or micro AAR if you will:

At Hong Kong I had 9 Chinese corps, arranged in 3 groups of 3. Each group had an AV in the range of 1100-1300. I attacked the enemy fleet HQ every day, cycling among my 3 groups to keep everyone fresh. The first 4 attacks were deliberate attacks, then 4 shock attacks. The first 6 attacks just inflicted a few dozen casualties, in the range of 30-150, almost all of them disabled rather than destroyed. On the 7th attack, however, the enemy unit crumbled and about 2/3 of it was destroyed. The remnant was easily wiped out in the 8th and final attack.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 1:31:59 AM

Dili

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Maybe making support less defense capable.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 5:46:50 AM

Yaab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Postmortem report, or micro AAR if you will:

At Hong Kong I had 9 Chinese corps, arranged in 3 groups of 3. Each group had an AV in the range of 1100-1300. I attacked the enemy fleet HQ every day, cycling among my 3 groups to keep everyone fresh. The first 4 attacks were deliberate attacks, then 4 shock attacks. The first 6 attacks just inflicted a few dozen casualties, in the range of 30-150, almost all of them disabled rather than destroyed. On the 7th attack, however, the enemy unit crumbled and about 2/3 of it was destroyed. The remnant was easily wiped out in the 8th and final attack.

I can easily imgaine the HQ remnants holing up in some warehouse in Hong Kong with plenty of ammo, and making their last stand there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov%27s_House

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 8:18:58 AM

adarbrauner

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Thank you for this post. Could not have imagined there were scouts in China at the time...

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 12:39:34 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Postmortem report, or micro AAR if you will:

At Hong Kong I had 9 Chinese corps, arranged in 3 groups of 3. Each group had an AV in the range of 1100-1300. I attacked the enemy fleet HQ every day, cycling among my 3 groups to keep everyone fresh. The first 4 attacks were deliberate attacks, then 4 shock attacks. The first 6 attacks just inflicted a few dozen casualties, in the range of 30-150, almost all of them disabled rather than destroyed. On the 7th attack, however, the enemy unit crumbled and about 2/3 of it was destroyed. The remnant was easily wiped out in the 8th and final attack.

Sounds like you may just have been overly anticipatory. Glad your example did not demonstrate any major 'bug' in the system and is akin to BBFanboy's example, jwolf.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 1:44:19 PM

morganbj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

REMF = Roving Evasion Main Force

That's not what REMF meant when I was in the Army.

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RE: Why are zombie units so hard to kill? - 3/26/2018 5:10:24 PM

Zorch

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"Why are zombie units so hard to kill?"

Because they're already dead?