A Curb Stom Battle

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A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 6:31:40 PM

Scorpion86

Posts: 239
Joined: 2/26/2017
Status: offline

I was trying some new default CMANO scenarios and I came upon the "Stand Up" scenario, Argentina vs. UK. I thought, hey, this could be an interesting playthrough.

It wasn't.

It was like punching down a wall with my fists, if I was a 70 year old pensioner with osteoporosis.

The UK has more AMRAAMs in 2 planes than I have planes in my entire side. My fighters can't do anything about it because they only carry Sidewinders. My strike fighters (all 2 of them) are armed only with dumb bombs, and they're going against a ship with 32 SAMs. Speaking of ships, two thirds of my fleet are completely defenceless against aircraft and missiles.

I got utterly stomped. My entire air force got shot down.

So I thought, "Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe there's something I didn't notice." I tried playing from the UK side. It was a curbstomp. With three planes, I destroyed the entire Argentinian air and naval force.

SIDE: UK
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
4x 27mm Mauser BK-27 Burst [30 rnds]
7x AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM P3I.2
2x AIM-132A ASRAAM
2x CPU-123 Paveway II GPS/LGB
6x RGM-84D Harpoon IC

SIDE: Argentina
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x A-4AR Fightinghawk
1x AS.555SN Fennec
1x D 10 Almirante Brown [Meko 360H2]
1x KC-130H Hercules
2x P 41 Espora [Meko 140/A16]
1x P-3B Orion
2x S-2T Turbo Tracker

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
18x 40mm/70 Twin Breda Compact Burst [32 rnds]
3x 76mm/62 Compact HE Burst [4 rnds]
2x Aspide
10x DAGAIE Mk2 LEM Chaff
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
2x SCLAR Chaff

And to add insult to injury, there was no submarine on the UK side, so the Argentinian S-2 Trackers were there just as free points to the UK side.

This scenario is ridiculously imbalanced, impossible from the Argentinian side and ridiculously simple from the UK side.

So my question is this: could you guys please beef up the forces on the Argentinian side as to make this a remotely fair fight? Give them more planes or something long-ranged to lob at the British!

Post #: 1

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 6:34:34 PM

Scorpion86

Posts: 239
Joined: 2/26/2017
Status: offline

Oh, and if you're going to patch the scenario, could you please clean up all the random nav points on the map?

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Post #: 2

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 6:45:32 PM

$trummer

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline

Is this an "official" scenario or user-made?

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Post #: 3

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 6:57:10 PM

Scorpion86

Posts: 239
Joined: 2/26/2017
Status: offline

An official one. It's on the "Standalone Scenarios" folder.

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Post #: 4

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 7:12:25 PM

BrianinMinnie

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline

Yup the Argentinans? are Punching out of their weight class, change the odds, reload in editor, unlimited ammo, pretend they purchased 8 J-10b's, 1 Y8 and 2 Hy6 from China save under new name. replay and see how ya do! :-)

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Post #: 5

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 7:23:57 PM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

IIRC this was designed as an easy (for the UK) scenario, to help new players play around and experiment without getting hammered for their mistakes.

Not every scenario has to be a "Damn The Torpedoes" (as an example of a challenge).

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Post #: 6

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 7:27:17 PM

Scorpion86

Posts: 239
Joined: 2/26/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

IIRC this was designed as an easy (for the UK) scenario, to help new players play around and experiment without getting hammered for their mistakes.

Not every scenario has to be a "Damn The Torpedoes" (as an example of a challenge).

Yeah, but if you're gonna give me the option of playing the opposite side, atleast make it not impossible to win. Throw in some Etendarts with Exocets or something.

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 7

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 9:15:09 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

I played that a long time ago. Had to play twice as the Argentinians get get anywhere. On the first play through I sank the Portland, but got every ship and usable aircraft killed. On the second play through, I did a very careful approach with all ships and with off axis attacks from the A-4s. I made all four A-4 loadouts for surface action. There just seemed no point in tangling with the UK fighters. I also used my P-3s and S-2s as decoys to draw off the Eurofighters. I used all my excocets and a flight of two A-4s, along with a sacrificial S-2 to get the Portland. I then had two A-4s left for the surface group. I actually don't remember if there was another Argentinian ship in the mix.

The key was not to waste my A-4s on suicide missions and be willing to sacrifice ships and planes to get the portland. I remember it well because I actually liked having to go back and completely rethink my approach. I used to be very squeamish sacrificing units and this one showed me that sometimes the greater good must prevail.

That memory might be somewhat blurred in four or so years. I'm going back to it tonight.

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Post #: 8

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 9:24:03 PM

AlGrant

Posts: 912
Joined: 8/18/2015
Status: offline

Scorpion86

A couple of things you can try ....
For me, the key to this one is EMCON, EMCON, EMCON!

As Argentina, the default EMCON is to be transmitting with radars ON - turn them off!
Send out one of the P3B's to an are to the N of the Falklands - again with radars off!

The UK's default EMCON it radars ON
The UK's doctrine is for weapons TIGHT and only to fire of contacts ID'd as Hostile.
With your radars OFF they need to get much closer to ID you.

As the UK is transmitting your passive sensors will soon get an ELINT hit on the Portland's radar.
You know she's hostile from her radar - the UK doesn't know who/what you are (there are neutral vessels in the area)

The P3 out wide from your surface units will help narrow down the uncertainty area. You can also send out your helo on full EMCON to help tighten up the fix.

Send your surface ships at full/flank speed towards the Portland and you should get in firing range before she ID's you.
If you need an exact fix to launch then switch on the helo's surface search radar and get ready to launch.

Still not an easy fight. If she survives the missiles close to gun range. With 3 vs 1 (and a little luck), you should come out on top.
I got a visit from a couple of Typhoons and managed to take one down, I think they were responding to the helo's radar.

Result after only a few hours of gameplay (1d5hrs remaining) was:
Score 1500 = Triumph
19/01/2011 07:08: Score changed from 0 to 500. Reason: Event Action: 'Arg Scores 500 Points' has been fired (part of Event: 'UK Losses an Aircraft')
19/01/2011 07:38: Score changed from 500 to 1500. Reason: Event Action: 'Arg Scores 1000 Points' has been fired (part of Event: 'UK Losses Ship')

I saved the game there but will continue tomorrow .....

You'll still need to find the Clyde and Wave Ruler, but they are both transmitting on radar.
Careful use of the S3's (under EMCON) should eventually pick up their transmissions.
Once located you can send your surviving ships at them (I have the Brown with 73% damage but still afloat, the rest undamaged) you may be down to guns but so are your targets. This is when I'll send the bomb armed A4's out with the fighters for escort - again go with radars off!

Worth a try..... and not impossible to win.

Note:
I checked afterwards in the Editor and strangely enough the UK's Type 101 long range air search radar at Mount Pleasant is switched OFF (the one radar they really need ON!) - this certainly helps your P3 remain undetected and Typhoon free!

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GOD'S EYE DISABLED.

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Post #: 9

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/29/2018 10:08:12 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

My first play through I left the radar on for one ship and that, in the end, is what killed me. It killed my chance of a coordinated off-axis strike with exocets. It forced me to bring my A-4s in close too early and they got hammered.

Also, before I even started, I examined all the missions and killed all of them for Argentina. There were so few assets, I felt it better to seriously micromanage to get the best coordination on my attacks.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 3/29/2018 10:34:46 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/30/2018 6:01:54 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

I played through again last night as Argentinians. Got a Triumph, even though I eventually last all three ships. There is quite a bit of margin for error, as long as you turn off all radars. I used trackers with bombs and P3s, both with surface radar on. My P3 pinpointed the Portland and I rushed the ships at it. One S2 got a lucky shot with a bomb that killed the SAM fire control radar. Then it was easy pickings with Exocets. At that point I had already sent the P3 looking for UK surface group. I then rushed the ships to it and killed them with the rest of the Exocets. The Eurofighters than cam at me and killed all three ships. But I still won.

Note I didn't mention the A-4s. I screwed up refueling and they had to return to base for a 10 hour turnaround.

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Post #: 11

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/30/2018 6:38:38 PM

AlGrant

Posts: 912
Joined: 8/18/2015
Status: offline

Something else you can use to your advantage if playing this one as Argentina.

The postures are set as;
UK considers Argentina = Neutral
Argentina considers UK = Hostile
This means that until you start shooting, UK units will not attack you, even if they find you.
Just be careful that your own units don't start firing at the first Hostile they see, thus triggering a response.
Initially setting weapons to Hold will give you time to get into position before choosing when to engage.

I checked this by sailing all 3 Argentine ships to within 2nm of HMS Portland (Harpoons min range!) then opened up on her with all guns.
I also tried engaging with all Exocets from all ships at about 6nm and still managed to get her.

Whatever the outcome, the best thing to do is to clear the area as quick as possible because those Typhoons will be on you in no time!
I found that splitting up after killing the Portland gave my ships a slightly better chance of survival over staying together in a group, but there's a bit of luck needed.

The Clyde and Wave Rider aren't too difficult to find with P3 and S-2 and engage with the A4's, but you will need your tankers to reach them (ask thewood1

).
I'd also follow wood's earlier advice about arming all 4 A-4's for surface engagements. With only 2 I needed 2 strike missions to finish them off, the Clyde kept escaping!

A change of tactics and this one is winnable.

_____________________________

GOD'S EYE DISABLED.

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Post #: 12

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/30/2018 10:30:09 PM

blkholsun

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

This scenario is ridiculously imbalanced, impossible from the Argentinian side and ridiculously simple from the UK side.

The real world is not balanced.

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Post #: 13

RE: A Curb Stom Battle - 3/30/2018 10:32:38 PM

thewood1

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

The funny part is I found it easier to play as the Argentinians. I think that because this is an older scenario, The AI has fewer tricks to go against a human. I don't even think Lua was around then. And the event engine was fairly limited. I bet if you rebuilt it, both human sides would get a run for their money.

(in reply to blkholsun)

Post #: 14