Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs?

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Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/7/2018 6:45:52 PM

Amnectrus

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I've been playing the Operation Allied Force community pack scenario and having a hard time reliably taking down the SA-10 sites. In a couple instances they've shot down my LGBs, and that's happened a lot in other scenarios too, and it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever read about that happening in real life. I know there are a few instances where SAMs have shot down anti-ship missiles (Falklands, Gulf War, a few others), but I did a little Googling and couldn't find any references to SAMs shooting down bombs. In fact, aside from Patriot vs Scud in the first Gulf War, and the Israeli Arrow more recently, I can't think of any instances of land-based SAMs shooting down anything but aircraft... Does anyone have a source for how often this might be expected to happen in real life?

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 4:02:46 AM

rmunie0613

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It depends upon the bomb...what type were being shot down?
Many of the "bombs" are actually small cruise missiles which are easily engageable by many modern SAMs.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 4:33:45 AM

Dysta

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Yeah, even SDB used by F-22 aren't spared by SAM in this game. I don't find any reports or news to tell how tough the freefall or glide bombs are when receiving SAM sharpnels.

My estimation is depends on the construction and triggering mechanism of the bomb. Technically, a 500lbs bomb must be exactly within that reported weight, so maybe 20-40 lbs is for the shell and other components, while the rest of it is ordinance. I also don't know what kind of material it makes for bombshells. Aluminum? Steel? Or something in between?

If the bombshell is tough enough to withstand few SAMs' sharpnels, then the bomb will not turns dud or self-detonate. However due to the damaged aerodynamic surface, it may incur some range and accuracy penalties, like the RV from ballistic missile that go through ABM/SAM barrage to make it very inaccurate.

But if is the case, this will make preemptive bombing attacks a lot more deadlier and less predictable at the same time. So far the bomb will just disappear if being count as intercepted successfully.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 6:35:33 AM

bpstalker

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Yes but I think the question is not the technological possibility rather if it's realistic to launch sam on any bombs/missiles especially with older SAM systems. I have discussed some time ago whether it was part of the doctrine to launch sam against icoming ARM. The answer was no, the first system where it was considered is the S-300P where you had 48 missiles ready for launch, and could engage 6 targets simultaneously (you don't want to waste a missile if you have only 6 to launch - eg. SA-2).

FC radar showing weapon separation from platform. No jamming present.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 7:43:49 AM

wild_Willie2

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Well a GP 500lbs bomb contains less then 50% of its mass in explosives, the rest is steel casing, fins and detonators and is thus relatively difficult to destroy once dropped on a ballistic arch.

But virtually all precision weapons like JDAM and SBD's are basically winged glide bombs with relative vulnerable wings and guidance sections that simply will get shredded when hit by any sort of SAM. This will result in an out of control weapons that is highly unlikely to hit its intended target, for all purposes this weapon is thus "destroyed" once hit.

W.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 7:59:32 AM

Sardaukar

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I have seen first hand Iron Dome in action. Impressive stuff.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 11:08:04 AM

Gunner98

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With modern systems it is certainly possible. C-RAM knocks out mortar bombs which are 1/15th the size of a 500 Lb bomb. Difficult to find reports for several reasons, 1: Not many bombs have be dropped against nations (or entities) that have the capability. 2: If it works nothing happens and theirs nothing to draw the media out of their hotel. 3: Not many want to deliberately advertise what they can do, any idea or chance of deterrence is far outweighed by the chance some bright spark will figure out a countermeasure.

bpstalker's point on doctrine is a good one for older technology delivery platforms and bombs, but it's the technology spiral. Even if its not a PGM (and it very likely is), a bomb delivered by an F-15E is far more likely to hit than one delivered by an F-4. So you wouldn't try to do this with an SA-2 because the tracking technology was not really there and the chance of getting hit was relatively low - or there were a lot of bombs coming at you and they were dropped from platforms going 'fast & low'. Today however with one or two bombs being dropped at a time probably from medium altitude they are much easier to track, and very likely to hit. So its going to hurt, and its easier to track - may as well try and shoot it down, you only need to be close because as wild_willie points out bombs are vulnerable. With the reduced size of explosives, an SDB only has a warhead of about 200lb (90Kg), you don't need to make it miss by much.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 4:52:31 PM

Amnectrus

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Looking at their capabilities, I agree it should be *possible* for SAMs to intercept bombs and missiles, I'm just wondering if there are any actual examples of it happening. Given that it happens pretty much all the time in the game, I find it surprising that I can find no references to it happening IRL. I haven't even found any references saying it's possible in theory to engage PGMs/ARMs with ground-based SAMs (while there are at least several references to shooting down antiship missiles with naval SAMs/point-defense).

Current SEAD tactics seem to emphasize getting an airplane close enough to the SAM to launch a missile or bomb, with the implication that the plane is in significant danger of being shot down, but not the weapon after launch. The Israeli systems that can shoot down mortar bombs and Katyusha rockets are regarded as unusual for being able to do that, and other anti-missile systems all seem to be geared toward anti-ballistic missile defense, not against regular aircraft-launched weapons.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 5:38:44 PM

guanotwozero

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It seems it's only relatively recent systems that have this capability, and in this timeframe there have been no symmetric conflicts where this could have happened.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/8/2018 8:04:10 PM

rmunie0613

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Most modern SAM systems are designed to shoot down air-to-ground ordinance or Surface-to-Surface... the idea usually is that aircraft will tangle with the "shooters"- other aircraft, and ordinance (SAMs) will tangle with the ordinance (ASM/SSM)
The fact there are few examples is more related as mentioned above to the fact that nations with fairly modern SAMs have seldom been on the receiving end of said ordinance in the modern era... and when they are, you do not hear about the success of IADS vs weapons... you instead hear of the % success for the Air-to-Ground ordinance being X... a total that comes after everything else on the "defense" side is already finished.
The systems are designed to destroy them... it is widely assumed they will be largely successful...but just as in the game, there are tactics to defeat it...aircraft in CMANO, and the weapons they carry, are still overwhelmingly the "King of the Jungle" you just cannot go in and assume to wipe out everything with airpower.
Many of the air-to-ground weapons are nearly as long (or longer even sometimes) than a small aircraft or, certainly, at least a drone, and they also do not maneuver- coming in relatively straight, predictable paths...they make for actually easier targets in those cases, than would an aircraft.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/9/2018 10:22:26 AM

Filitch

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http://tass.com/world/998481
Looks like we are have only two candidates for "missile" role: AGM-142 or GBU-39. 5 from 8 was hit by not a modern SAM.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/9/2018 1:25:59 PM

Dysta

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Speaking of devil...

Syrian SAM systems are still persistent, I must say.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 4/9/2018 1:27:02 PM >

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/9/2018 6:25:32 PM

ExNusquam

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quote:

Looks like we are have only two candidates for "missile" role: AGM-142 or GBU-39. 5 from 8 was hit by not a modern SAM.

Or SPICE or Delilah...

And what makes you think it wasn't a modern SAM? Syria operates SA-15/SA-22, and Iran has SA-15 (and probably SA-22).

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/9/2018 8:35:05 PM

Filitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam
Or SPICE or Delilah...

I based on report about F-15. Of course, if we include others Israel airctraft types, we should consider and other missiles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam
And what makes you think it wasn't a modern SAM? Syria operates SA-15/SA-22, and Iran has SA-15 (and probably SA-22).

Probably I was wrong.
Of course SA-22, modernized SA-3, SA-17 Buk-M1 and Buk-M2, SA-5.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/9/2018 9:50:46 PM

guanotwozero

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I still reckon it will be some time before we get an accurate account of events. However, CMANO users are in a good position to speculate and narrow down likely scenarios.

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RE: Reports of SAMs shooting down LGBs? - 4/10/2018 1:29:03 AM

Sharana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Given that it happens pretty much all the time in the game, I find it surprising that I can find no references to it happening IRL. I haven't even found any references saying it's possible in theory to engage PGMs/ARMs with ground-based SAMs (while there are at least several references to shooting down antiship missiles with naval SAMs/point-defense).

How many examples can you give about "modern" (let's say decent system designed after 1990) SAM systems engaged by PGMs?

Iraq, Serbia, Lybia didn't really have "modern" SAMs that have the capacity to reliably track and engage such low RCS targets. Pantsir-S1, Tor and similar close range systems are expected to exactly intercept and destroy the PGMs aimed at the S-300/400 positions, so that they don't waste the big rockets on them, but focus on the planes. That's one of the reasons SDB/SDB II and similar "small" munitions were born. It's not that hard to intercept 4x JSOW aimed at SAM position, but 16 SDBs (taking the same space on the plane as the 4x JSOWs) will be close to impossible to intercept at the same time.

< Message edited by Sharana -- 4/10/2018 1:31:14 AM >

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