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Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 12:09:35 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Some one please explain to me how the following air force placement in any way represents what was possible in WW2.







quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]

Current situation: 2 of the brit. tanks are destroyed, as well as one of their HQs. The appearing of an am. strat. bomber shows the happening during Chrispy's turn: USA joined the Allies early dec.. I'm expecting my esteemed opponent to immediately invest all the am. Chits into Spain, providing him with a chance of 20%/turn to decrease Franco's pro Axis' leaning. Since it`s taking an additional turn for the DE to fire, the race will continue.

German income has reached 1050 MPPs/turn with the developement of the 5. stage of industial research. Russian Winter has happened.








11 Axis air groups in the mountains of Morocco, the realism abounds. Thank you for proving my many posts on the mass air limitations of the game. Folks if you want to know why Sugar wins this is it in one picture. I really hope the developers are reading this.






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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 2:35:47 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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I wonder what the game would look like if planes we tied to cities and their adjacent hex. Something like Cities with supply 5 and under can host 1 air unit, 6 and up, 2 air unit. Basically, where there is high town density there would be infrastructure to maintain large air fleet and desolate, under-developed places would see smaller squadrons. In exchange the rule on the HQ having to be the closest would be weaved.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 3:33:07 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I'm really hoping to get a comment from Bill or Hubert if this is their intent in the game.




I agree Korut some type of limitations (air bases) would be a major improvement.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 3:34:05 PM   
YohanTM


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interesting idea KZ - it is indeed out of hand right now - maybe add the option to build an airbase in clear terrain at a certain cost for forward deployments - more in woods/desert

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 4:17:06 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Another one, that was suggested by someone else I forgot was to limit the amount of air unit per HQ, like 2-3. I always cringe a little when I turn Rommel into a aircraft carrier.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 4:28:10 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

Another one, that was suggested by someone else I forgot was to limit the amount of air unit per HQ, like 2-3. I always cringe a little when I turn Rommel into a aircraft carrier.







Another good idea, maybe air HQ's (Dowding etc)

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 4:38:55 PM   
Sugar

 

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Take a look at pictures of typical airfields in NA or Russia and tell me how they were related to cities or towns.

I agree the relation between tac. bombers and especially tanks doesn't fit, in fact I would gladly trade some of the tac. bombers for tanks in that situation (like in most). They're quick and don't rely on weather.

I also agree the Axis to have the edge, allthough the tourney suggests the opposite.

When it comes to balancing, the issue is not only to reduce some possible advantages, but to enable any side to reach it's goal.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 4:56:35 PM   
Taxman66


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As I have argued before, the issues of 'realism' (and mass air groups is not the only one) tie into the design of the game and particularly into the victory conditions; and the balance of trying to achieve a game where the axis win the war about 50% if the time. Which, in my opinion (as I also argued in other threads) raises significant issues on its own).

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 5:32:26 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Maybe just zones (green/yellow/red)

Green - all Major countries Europe & USSR - no limit

Yellow - Eastern Africa & Middle East Southern Scandinavia 3 bombers/3 fighters (including carriers) this could include other areas just throwing it out

Red - Western Africa & Northern Scandinavia 3 planes

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 7:59:35 PM   
xwormwood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Some one please explain to me how the following air force placement in any way represents what was possible in WW2.




You play a "what if" kind of game. That is why it is possible. No, better: why it should be possible.



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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 8:05:23 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Some one please explain to me how the following air force placement in any way represents what was possible in WW2.




You play a "what if" kind of game. That is why it is possible. No, better: why it should be possible.







Its not a "what if" its something that was (and probably still is ) absolutely impossible. This is a historical game not a fantasy game.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 8:15:36 PM   
crispy131313


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To be fair there are 1000 MPP worth of HQ/supply/base parked in those mountains which simulate somewhat of air-basing.

What I have felt from Beta (2016) was that the Bombers were too strong, it was the first change I made in Fall Weiss II and I have never looked back or had a complaint (only compliments). The air force should support the Armies not the other way around. Having 2-3 ground units supporting an advancing air force is where we are going off the rails. I can not blame Sugar for doing this, but I can fault the game for creating the incentive to do it. The answer is to simply scale bombers back in their ground attack value, they should be softening up targets (lowering morale, entrenchment, doing damage) not nuking entire army groups.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 9:25:27 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/9/2018 9:31:52 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 9:28:14 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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THE PLANES ARE IN THE MOUNTAINS IN MOROCCO IN 1940 FOR GOD"S SAKE.

You are correct Sugar is absolutely operating within the parameters of the game.


Bill - Hubert any comments?


< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/9/2018 9:32:59 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 9:54:39 PM   
xwormwood


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you play against sugar, not an average joe kind of Strategic Command player.
Let me explain what this means: you play against a side which surely trains, reads the manual up to all decision events, plans long turns ahead, looks out for a game system weaknesses, and tries to bring the entire package against all of their human opponents.

Stop playing games against these kind of opponents if you don't like what they are able to do to you.
It doesn't matter what kind of game you play. Stop playing against those people who prefer to win no matter what. They will never give you the feeling of the time period.
And I write this with the utmost respect for players like sugar or people who play against them.

< Message edited by xwormwood -- 4/9/2018 9:56:43 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 9:58:08 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I'm hoping the game will. I expect players to use all strategies that are available to them.



< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/9/2018 11:53:44 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 10:45:16 PM   
Hairog


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Carpet bombing did of course take place and was pretty effective. It did cause whole units to be ineffective in responding to the follow up ground attacks. Please remember that units that are shattered are not destroyed but go back into the replacement pool for refit and replacements.

quote:

The first successful use of the technique was on 6 May 1943, at the end of the Tunisia Campaign. Carried out under Sir Arthur Tedder, it was hailed by press as Tedder's bomb-carpet (or Tedder's carpet). The bombing was concentrated in a four by three-mile area preparing the way for the First Army.[10] This tactic was later used in many cases in Normandy Campaign, for example in Battle for Caen.[11]


That being said IMHO the AI and some players get carried away. Carpet bombing was used very rarely and took enormous amounts of resources to plan and carry out. Numerous carpet bomb attacks should not be possible every turn. I like Crispy's solution. You can easily cut back on the damage to hard and soft targets while still give the SB the ability to hit resource hexes hard.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/9/2018 11:56:53 PM   
James Taylor

 

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Ktonos brought up a very important point in his "pbem impressions" thread about the movement of aircraft(ferrying) from one local to another.

According to sources I've read, one being "A Fire in the Sky" and also John Elis' "Encyclopedia of WW II Facts and Figures" operational losses of aircraft were quite significant. That is losses from other factors excluding combat. Training, ferrying, take offs and landings, as well as cannibalization of semi-operational aircraft quickly diluted out the overall effectiveness of air units.

This means a fair representation of losses during an SC operational movement of aircraft should have some possibly major(25%) circumstances involved.

I believe that such a feature would be realistic especially when ferrying aircraft to remote regions where infrastructure was surely lacking.

There is even a case that just for rebasing a SC air unit could result in a 10% chance of suffering a loss.

Something to consider along with my suggested cap of 2/3 air units per SC HQ.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 5:18:57 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
What I have felt from Beta (2016) was that the Bombers were too strong, it was the first change I made in Fall Weiss II and I have never looked back or had a complaint (only compliments).

Same here with 653H [and it carried over to 653N]. Totally agree with you. So there are possible options.

quote:

This is a historical game not a fantasy game.

Actually, it is a game based on an historical conflict. There are many things that are not historical about it, in varying degrees depending on ones knowledge of history.

quote:

Stop playing games against these kind of opponents if you don't like what they are able to do to you.

Well put. SC3 doesn't kill people, people kill people !

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 11:20:22 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Panzer Corps 2 release was just announced here are some of the features



Air combat is being improved – every airplane is now tied to an airfield that will be a hex-feature. You can attack and destroy the airfields to cause air units to run out of fuel and/or ammo.
Airfield hexes may be able to be repaired under certain circumstances.



653's posted following:

quote:

This is a historical game not a fantasy game.

Actually, it is a game based on an historical conflict. There are many things that are not historical about it, in varying degrees depending on ones knowledge of history.



my response:

I should have been clearer. It was operationally (airfields, fuel, ammunition, terrain) impossible to put 1/2 the German airforce in the mountains of Morocco in 1940. If you think it was well.




< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 4/10/2018 12:29:43 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 1:44:18 PM   
jjdenver

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
To be fair there are 1000 MPP worth of HQ/supply/base parked in those mountains which simulate somewhat of air-basing.
What I have felt from Beta (2016) was that the Bombers were too strong, it was the first change I made in Fall Weiss II and I have never looked back or had a complaint (only compliments). The air force should support the Armies not the other way around. Having 2-3 ground units supporting an advancing air force is where we are going off the rails. I can not blame Sugar for doing this, but I can fault the game for creating the incentive to do it. The answer is to simply scale bombers back in their ground attack value, they should be softening up targets (lowering morale, entrenchment, doing damage) not nuking entire army groups.

exactly!

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 2:30:12 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

To be fair there are 1000 MPP worth of HQ/supply/base parked in those mountains which simulate somewhat of air-basing.



I'd rather have an engineer there busy there for a while before this is possible. HQ are too mobile. Let's say 60 days build time for an airstrip that can house 2 air unit.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 2:33:08 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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We are watching the thread and listening to all the feedback. Often the best thing for us to do before we jump in as it is usually ideal to hear all the different points of view.

That being said, many of the game rules have been in place for well over 10 years and can work just fine until players discover strategies that challenge the logic of existing rules and design decisions. Having in game flexibility to move air units around as shown above is one of them and in the past spending those MPPs to operate that many aircraft as well as placing the required HQs would simply mean a significant weakness in other areas of the map. Typically some strategies only work until the appropriate counter strategy is devised and then all is well again and no intervention is needed from our end at all.

Now in this case it could simply be that one player is very good at working within the rule set no matter what we do, or it could be that long term this strategy doesn't pan out as let's say those extra MPPs spent in the screen shot above eventually come to roost as it results in the Soviet player being able to survive in the USSR and eventually tipping the balance there. For example MPPs spent to move all that air to North Africa eventually needs to be spent to move it back if they are rapidly required elsewhere at some point.

Sometimes we just need to see how dozens of games pan out before making a change if the strategy above only relates to a short term victory and not a long term one.

From our end there are a lot of "developement what ifs" and it's just a matter of being careful of what you wish for as well. For example the game could be made much more realistic, which usually leads to more micro managing, which usually leads to less fun for most players.

It could be that Sugar's game play works only for him, or maybe for everyone, or maybe it is just short term and doesn't win in the long term but even still it found to be offensive to those that want realism no matter what. At the end of the day it is difficult to please everyone, that's simply a reality on our end, and that is something to consider as well.

* * *

Again, the game can always be adjusted, but from our end we've quickly discovered that for each change there can be unintended consequences and we have to be aware of that so that it doesn't turn into a game of whack a mole on our end of constantly changing rules to fix our fixes etc. Which is usually why we sometimes take a wait and see approach. Also, the game is getting older now and the tournament results so far indicate the game is within the realm of balance and we have to balance out any potential changes, time and effort, with also having the ability to move forward and focus on other projects. Unfortuantely in order to survive as a business we need to move our efforts forward at some point, again another simple reality on our end, and also one of the reasons we don't necessarily respond to each and every post as that takes a lot of time as well.

So all of the above bein said, there are a few options for us at the moment:

1) Wait and see if the massing of air fleets is a sure fire win strategy, despite the feeling of it being ahistorical. I suggest this only because the image above is not a free move and does cost MPPs, quite a few when considering the back and forth cost, and one of the big things players do seem to enjoy in game is having flexibility to try different strategies. Of course with the built in pro and con system of having to expend MPPs in order to do so and that those MPPs might cost them elsewhere if needed elsewhere.

2) Add further restrictions to the flexibility in order to achieve either game balance if needed, and/or to add more realism. Again this tends to lead to more micro managing and for some much less fun, but if that is the desire of the majority we will be open minded to that.

3) Change air unit statistics if needed, but even here it is likley to change the dynamic of the game and require careful and considerable adjustments as it will potentially hurt the Axis the most in the early years and the Allies the most in the later years. I'd almost suggest to those that would like to lower the effectiveness of bombers to to simply try this out with the default game, i.e. make just this one change, and see how it goes as my guess is it would require quite a few games to know what sort of long term effect this one change would have on overall game play and if it would solve the concerns outright. I realize from reading above that there are mods that have done this, but I am guessing the mods have other changes in place as well so a simple one element change to the default game would paint a better picture on our end of what else may or may not be needed.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 3:24:02 PM   
Rannug61


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Hi

A simple thing to do without risking unknown effects would be to have one less tactical bomber for all major nations. This would tone down the focus on airpower. It wouldn't hurt the Axis in early game and there is more then enough firepower for the Allies in late game anyway(if they are stil alive).

...and let the Russians have AT level 1 from the start of the game.

< Message edited by Rannug61 -- 4/10/2018 3:27:54 PM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 3:36:57 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Another example of mass air was in my AAR vs HarryBanana.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4403275&mpage=3&key=

That's my mass air vs his mass air. While this looks like a strong concentration of air force it was swept away rather easily. The fighting in the middle east was essentially an air war where huge air concentration did 90% of the work while the ground troops were the sideshow.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 4:09:51 PM   
Harun

 

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Sugar talks about how if your rail lines are connected you can ship units from Narvik to Egypt in one turn.

This got me thinking...operational movement costs / time should be based on distance and possibly other factors.

I think a time cost could be the most effective. Much as the sea transport boxes take several turns for units to show up, the same could be done for distances/zones of operational travel.

Want to move an entire armored corps from Leningrad to Spain? That will take 2-4 turns.

This would make strategies like sending massed air units to distant locales be more strategically costly, but also force the German player to perhaps keep some ground forces more closely located to France, etc.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/10/2018 4:20:19 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

Sugar talks about how if your rail lines are connected you can ship units from Narvik to Egypt in one turn.

This got me thinking...operational movement costs / time should be based on distance and possibly other factors.

I think a time cost could be the most effective. Much as the sea transport boxes take several turns for units to show up, the same could be done for distances/zones of operational travel.

Want to move an entire armored corps from Leningrad to Spain? That will take 2-4 turns.

This would make strategies like sending massed air units to distant locales be more strategically costly, but also force the German player to perhaps keep some ground forces more closely located to France, etc.


Wouldn't mind that. Or a hard cap in number of operated units tied to the logistic tech.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 4/10/2018 4:52:21 PM >

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/11/2018 6:11:24 AM   
Hairog


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You can adjust the some of the perimeters of Operational Movement here.








Somewhere there is a way to adjust the cost as well but I can't remember off the top of my head. If someone knows please let us know.

As I recall you can make it very hard to move some units operationally by upping the cost dramatically.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Hairog -- 4/11/2018 6:14:28 AM >


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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/11/2018 1:08:09 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I think its in the Campaign > Edit Movement Costs screen.

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RE: Mass Air Groups - 4/11/2018 4:50:36 PM   
BPINisBACK


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I am completely agree.
In each game there are a few of top players. Now it's Sugar, before was Terif and so on.
So, they "deserve" to rule the game. I think they have studied deeply the mechanism of the game and they enjoy playing "in the same way" game, after game. Futhermore, they are able to "focus" a lot in their games.
Not my case... i didn't studied the rules deeply, i usually make stupid mistakes, and i like to try different choices. And...i love the looong games. Not interested in win a game in 1941.
It's my case... Not the best way to win, of course.
So... Yes to "micro" changes to the game (Operational movement more expensive, to change the attack values of Stukas, etc. etc...)
But not a revolution right now...
Anyway, there will be always a few players who are "unbeatable" and they deserve it!
Just my opinion.

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