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bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/11/2018 7:03:08 PM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

Hi all,

After reading the Air mission coordination guide a while ago and trying to coordinate fighters and bombers in test settings, I was under the impression that I knew a little bit how that worked. I am not an expert, just a enthusiastic beginner with regard to the air war. But still, I managed to coordinate air missions, with fighters and bombers arriving at the same target.

Having started a PBEM. I am encountering the following situation.

4 turns ago, The Emprie conquered Merak and is now in the process of shipping troops between Oosthaven and Merak. I still own Batavia and Bandoeng. And the following airgroups are present there :

flying at 6.000 ft: (hopefully without typo's)
Batavia :
1-Vl G.V : 12 B-339D
Bandoeng :
2-Vl G.V : 10 B-339D (with on average 50 xp, indicated as 0 in game, strangely enough)
2-Vl G.IV : 8 CW-21 Demon
1-Vl G.II : 8 139WH3
3-Vl G.III : 9 139WH3
Vk.A.1 : 9 CW-22 Falcon

7.000 ft:
Bandoeng:
24th PG/3rd PS : 19 P-40E
24th PG/ 21st PS : 16 P39D
3-Vl G.V. : 12 B-339D's
1-Vl G.IV. : 5 75a-7 Hawk
2-Vl G.I. : 3 139WH3
1-Vl G.III. :9 139WH3
Vk.A.2 : 9 CW-22 Falcon

All in all:
- 6.000 ft : 30 fighters, 22 bombers.
- 7.000 ft : 52 fighters, 21 bombers.

The airfields at Batavia and Bandoeng are within Base adminstration and Aircraft stacking limits. Also there is enough aviation support present at both bases.

Weather was for the last 3 turns :
Rain
Rain
Overcast

For 3 turns now, all the bombers are set to Naval Attack and all the fighters to Escort. Everything with range 4 or 5.
There are A6M2's present as Cap at Oosthaven and Merak, so what I expect to happen is:
My somewhat coordinated airgroups, consisting of at least some fighters and bombers, arrive at the shipping in Oosthaven and Merak, and get shot down by the A6m2's.

What actually is been happening for 3 turns now is that piecemeal groups of 4 139WH's arrive at either Merak or Oosthaven and incur minor losses, but both the fighters and the CW-22's are nowhere to be found.

Am I doing something completely wrong? Could someone point me out what I should be doing differently.

Might it just be, early war combined with bad weather, which makes coordination difficult? Or am I completely missing something?

Thanks in advance for all and any advice.

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Post #: 1

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/11/2018 7:16:09 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
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My bet, FWIW, is a combination of poor morale and/or experience. It will make this type of air operation very difficult in the early months of the war for the Allies.

(in reply to ericv)

Post #: 2

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/11/2018 9:37:32 PM

Admiral DadMan

Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline

Yes. You should be pulling the Sir Robin strategy and bugging the hell out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

Am I doing something completely wrong? Could someone point me out what I should be doing differently.

_____________________________

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CVB Langley:

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Post #: 3

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/11/2018 11:26:30 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Truly, none of the DEI units have skill or exp or morale to stand up to IJ units in '41.

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Post #: 4

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 6:25:59 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

Brace yourself, ericv.

WEATHER

To eliminate weather as a factor in coordination, put the bombers and fighters in the SAME base whenever possible.
I would move the Buffalo fighters from 1-Vl G.V from Batavia to Bandoeng. Right now, if Batavia has bad weather, and Bandoeng has good weather, the Batavia fighters will be grounded and a total no-show, and you will receive NO feedback about it in combat/op reports.It will frustrate the hell out of you.

CRUISE SPEEDS

Check the cruise speeds of fighters and bombers. Here are the cruise speeds from scen 33 and scen 100.

Demon 282 mph
Hawk 262 mph
Buffalo 218 mph

139WH-3 180 mph
CW-22 Falcon 190 mph
L-212 212 mph

Thus, your best escort fighter is the Buffalo cause its cruise speeds matches the speeds of bombers. I use Hawks and Demons purely for CAP and Buffaloes for escort. Moreover, Buffaloes have a very high service rating (SR3), and if the fly CAP every day, they will get damgaged after a handful of days from all the flying, thus it make ven more sens to let them fly escort missions.

Also, check Warhawks and Airacobra speeds as well. Airacobra is probably too fast, thus they do CAP. Warhawks escort bombers.

Basically put the bombers, Buffaloes and Warhawks in i.e Batavia and fly escorted bombing missions there only, and put Airacobras/Hawks/Demons in Bandoeng and fly only CAP there, possibly with range 2-3 hexes to cover Batavia as well.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/12/2018 6:28:27 AM >

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Post #: 5

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 6:34:42 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

PART II

Coordination effect

Theatre command (same) - Helps

Air HQ (same) - Helps
(Can be bypassed by simply subordinating air groups directly to theatre command)

Base (air groups at the same base) - Helps

Base (air grops at different bases) - Lessens

Escorts altitude and target same as bombers - Helps

Group experience (high) - Helps
(Can be influenced by moving in high exp pilots from other bombing squadrons)

Leader AIR skill (high) - Helps
(Both for bomber and fighter leader unit �affects coordination and plane numbers)

Cruise speed (similar) - Helps

Cruise speed (different) (more the 20% difference) - Lessens
(THIS is the most important factor � if the speed difference is too great, other factors will not help)

Morale (high) - Helps
(Manual(p.159) Low morale- more chance to fail to coordinate)

OTHER

Weather � mission may be aborted due to bad weather over either home base or target hex

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus, in order to raise coordination chance, you need to do the following:

1.Check theatre/air HQs of the air groups

2.Weed out the leaders with low AIR skill in bomber/fighter escort group.

3.Check if pilots with high exp can be added to the bomber/escort fighter groups. If so, move low exp pilots to CAP groups and poor bomber pilots to RESERVE. You do it in order to raise AVERAGE exp in both bomber and fighter escort groups.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/12/2018 6:47:13 AM >

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Post #: 6

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 9:47:09 AM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

thanks all and especially Yaab : Dziękuję

A lot of information to process, things that make a lot of sense but hadn't crossed my mind at all. Thanks again!

I am aware that this early in the war, the planes, even with perfect coordination, will just get mauled by the Japanese. But perhaps I will sink a couple of ships this way.

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 7

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 11:30:22 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Everything Yaab points out is accurate, more details from the stickied thread :Air Coordination.

But all of this supports prior opinions: Against a comparable opponent, the DEI air will not withstand the IJ in '41. Leaders, skills, pilots, exp, and most importantly NUMBERS, etc are all lower than what the IJ can muster. So, yes use all of the above to inflict max damage against the IJ, but it will take successive great rolls to succeed.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 8

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 11:30:59 AM

PaxMondo

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link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382494

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Pax

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Post #: 9

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/12/2018 12:00:44 PM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

Thank you for the link Pax.

What you point out is completely correct of course. Early in the war, I am not expecting miracles from the Dutch in any way. They will lose, and have already lost, a lot of planes. But I gather, as these groups are pretty much all restricted, these planes will be lost, no matter what. Perhaps I will sink a boat or 2.
I did sink 3 empty LB's 5 turns ago. That will have certainly hurt the IJA war effort.

In the process I will learn some hard needed knowledge about coordinating air missions.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 10

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 1:22:45 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

PART II

...Cruise speed (different) (more the 20% difference) - Lessens
(THIS is the most important factor � if the speed difference is too great, other factors will not help)...

Not correct.

The absolute, sine qua non, to get a coordinated fighter and bomber raid is to have the escorting fighters assigned the exact same altitude as the bombers. This is the trigger in the code.

Without having the exact same altitude, it is impossible to get a coordinated raid. At best only a cooperative raid will ensue; one where because there is a commonality of purpose different units will converge independently at the same point and cooperatively assist to a certain extent each others efforts.

Alfred

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 11

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 12:37:34 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

... but it will take successive great rolls to succeed.

+1

In addition to the above and the addendum of Admiral Alfred....

You do not specifically mention (1) playing verses the AI or PBEM and (2) date

More tactically speaking:

Turn 1 December 8 1941.

Organize all Dutch Bombers / Fighters into coherent groups as you see fit organizing fragments in preferred bases with Aviation Support. Much of this is personal choice.

Set Bombers to : Training 100% ` Naval Attack ~ Range 0

As I recall there are a number of float planes that you may utilize to shift troops and/or supply - dedicate some to Naval Search i.e. Naval Search 80% Rest 20%

As per the good advice above I use the Buffalos for escort - the Hawks and Demons for CAP.

Balance act: building bases and fortifications see if able to alternate 'rest' ground troops and Aviation support base units to reduce fatigue and increase morale. Further rest Air Units 100% occasionally the same. This latter part is well documented in Admiral Sardarkar's excellent Beginners tutorial verses the AI (mostly vis a vis Chinese Troops). In essence Higher Morale troops fight better.

My personal experience verses the AI.

It will be a couple weeks until the AI opponent starts to appear in force in the DEI area. Palemebang firstly - but DEI latter.

Then in my experience the AI seems to consistently send in a 'mini KB' to raid/sweep/bomb DEI.

Generally by this time some of the Bomber Squadrons achieved ~ 50 some in Naval Attack (not total experience to differentiate) and better morale.

In 3 games - (1) aborted rookie start (2) rookie first Admiral Star (3) rookie plus learning all he missed.....

I achieved 1 minor hit on Zuiho (both times as I recall) in games 2 and 3

--

I tend not to play "Brave Sir Robin" but prefer a "history ++ stand and fight " approach making the conquest more costly and/or prolonged compared to history.

Other vet players will perhaps have even better insights into the specific deployment of Dutch forces and Air Forces.

< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 4/13/2018 12:38:35 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 12

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 2:01:57 PM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The absolute, sine qua non, to get a coordinated fighter and bomber raid is to have the escorting fighters assigned the exact same altitude as the bombers. This is the trigger in the code.

Without having the exact same altitude, it is impossible to get a coordinated raid. At best only a cooperative raid will ensue; one where because there is a commonality of purpose different units will converge independently at the same point and cooperatively assist to a certain extent each others efforts.

Alfred

Thank you Alfred, trying to coordinate by means of flying at the same altitude is the part I got right from the start.

Unrelated, but you know such a huge amount about this game. Were you part of the developing team?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

+1

In addition to the above and the addendum of Admiral Alfred....

You do not specifically mention (1) playing verses the AI or PBEM and (2) date

More tactically speaking:

Turn 1 December 8 1941.

Organize all Dutch Bombers / Fighters into coherent groups as you see fit organizing fragments in preferred bases with Aviation Support. Much of this is personal choice.

Set Bombers to : Training 100% ` Naval Attack ~ Range 0

As I recall there are a number of float planes that you may utilize to shift troops and/or supply - dedicate some to Naval Search i.e. Naval Search 80% Rest 20%

As per the good advice above I use the Buffalos for escort - the Hawks and Demons for CAP.

Balance act: building bases and fortifications see if able to alternate 'rest' ground troops and Aviation support base units to reduce fatigue and increase morale. Further rest Air Units 100% occasionally the same. This latter part is well documented in Admiral Sardarkar's excellent Beginners tutorial verses the AI (mostly vis a vis Chinese Troops). In essence Higher Morale troops fight better.

My personal experience verses the AI.

It will be a couple weeks until the AI opponent starts to appear in force in the DEI area. Palemebang firstly - but DEI latter.

Then in my experience the AI seems to consistently send in a 'mini KB' to raid/sweep/bomb DEI.

Generally by this time some of the Bomber Squadrons achieved ~ 50 some in Naval Attack (not total experience to differentiate) and better morale.

In 3 games - (1) aborted rookie start (2) rookie first Admiral Star (3) rookie plus learning all he missed.....

I achieved 1 minor hit on Zuiho (both times as I recall) in games 2 and 3

--

I tend not to play "Brave Sir Robin" but prefer a "history ++ stand and fight " approach making the conquest more costly and/or prolonged compared to history.

Other vet players will perhaps have even better insights into the specific deployment of Dutch forces and Air Forces.

thanks for the additional advice MacClan.

I am playing vs another person. The game date is 22nd of januari.

I've had some succes with the Do-24. Sinking some minor AK's and AKL's. At the moment however, most of them are transporting the scattered dutch troops to Java.
Trying to make a Bandoeng fortress. 85.000 supply, lvl 3 fort. 1000 AV. Not going to last very long, maybe a week or 2. Who knows.

Regarding the 100% training setting. I don't know why, but all my training groups are set at 50% training. I used this setting when I a started to play WitpAE for no particular reason and the experience of the pilots went up. So I stuck with it.
Is training much more efficient when set to 100%?

I do get the overall point, the Dutch just aren't that good. And not easy to get to a decent level before they get run over by the Empire, but I like to at least try to make a stand. Make it a bit more difficult.
Most of the major combatants were evacuated in time: PoW, Repulse, Boise, Houston, all the CL's survived. So that's a plus.

Sardaukar's tutorial was the first thing I read, the moment I started playing. Can Highly recommend it. I went from being completely and utterly lost, to a glimmer of sunshine in a thunderstorm.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 13

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 3:08:42 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

Alfred is our resident "librarian" is the context that he is the best searcher/researcher in the forum. He can collate dev responses on topics from 10 years ago to remind us all on a particular topic. Precision would be ONE of his middle names.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 14

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 3:18:00 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Alfred is our resident "librarian" is the context that he is the best searcher/researcher in the forum. He can collate dev responses on topics from 10 years ago to remind us all on a particular topic. Precision would be ONE of his middle names.

I seem to recall he also mentioned he sat in on some of the Dev. meetings/teleconferences so although not officially credited (that I can find) he is aware of lots of the discussions during development. He has been masterful about telling us enough to clear up some of our confusion while keeping secret the game engine info that could be exploited unfairly. A great resource for us!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 15

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/13/2018 4:28:30 PM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Alfred is our resident "librarian" is the context that he is the best searcher/researcher in the forum. He can collate dev responses on topics from 10 years ago to remind us all on a particular topic. Precision would be ONE of his middle names.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

...
I seem to recall he also mentioned he sat in on some of the Dev. meetings/teleconferences so although not officially credited (that I can find) he is aware of lots of the discussions during development. He has been masterful about telling us enough to clear up some of our confusion while keeping secret the game engine info that could be exploited unfairly. A great resource for us!

The name 'Alfred' cannot be a coincidence then,
from the etymology :

quote:

Alfred is an English given name, one of the few Anglo-Saxon names which saw continued use until modern times. Its Old English form is �lfr�d (Old English pronunciation: [ˈ�lfˌr�ːd]), composed of the elements �lf "elf" and r�d "counsel". It is also related to the name Alf of Old Norse.

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Post #: 16

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/14/2018 7:28:18 AM

Alfred

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

Unrelated, but you know such a huge amount about this game. Were you part of the developing team?

I was not part of the AE development team.

The AE devs are listed in both the game and ingame. For a more focussed list on the key devs see my posts, as well as those from wdolson and Bullwinkle58 in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4049409&mpage=2&key=?

I do have access to the private AE developers forum. Although I am not bound by a NDA, because I was not part of the development team (aka Henderson Field Design), I respect the limitations on code disclosure which the AE devs are bound to honour as part of their NDA.

As a general rule I don't post detailed explanations without refreshing my memory first by checking on past dev (or my own

) posts on the subject matter. Other sources I usually check before posting are the game manual, patch notes, and editor manual as appropriate. Also I will often check the game data and where necessary break down into the constituent components to see the relationship effects.

Just as important is attitude. Unlike many who post here, whenever something unanticipated happens I do not assume that it was caused by a bug or that the game has it incorrect. Unlike so many who post, I do not proceed on the basis of having a preconceived idea of how the game should operate and that I am smarter than the AE devs. I have immense regard for the technical expertise of the key AE devs and it makes me angry to see posts from people who disparage the reputation of the devs. Instead my assumption is always that the outcome resulted from my own action and it is therefore incumbent upon me to objectively identify what actually happened. One proceeds from first principles and then, in a logical manner, one goes into the weeds.

When I post the answer I try to be as detailed but concise as possible, focussing on the principles at play. It is absolutely important to be able to see the forest from the trees.

It follows that anyone who thinks logically, is prepared to put in the effort before just shooting off their mouth, understands the various relevant historical and technical relationships, and has a good memory, can become quite knowledgeable in the game mechanics.

Alfred

(in reply to ericv)

Post #: 17

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/14/2018 7:30:53 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

PART II

...Cruise speed (different) (more the 20% difference) - Lessens
(THIS is the most important factor � if the speed difference is too great, other factors will not help)...

Not correct.

The absolute, sine qua non, to get a coordinated fighter and bomber raid is to have the escorting fighters assigned the exact same altitude as the bombers. This is the trigger in the code.

Without having the exact same altitude, it is impossible to get a coordinated raid. At best only a cooperative raid will ensue; one where because there is a commonality of purpose different units will converge independently at the same point and cooperatively assist to a certain extent each others efforts.

Alfred

Altitude triggers the code, but will not override (at least not every time) the cruise speed delta. This is why you constantly see the slow Idas and Devastators arrive LAST and ALONE in coordinated raids, and fast A-20s arrive before escorts. Experienced pilots are too precious to take chances with them like that and I try to group my bombers/fighters by their cruise speeds.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 18

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/14/2018 6:03:00 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

PART II

...Cruise speed (different) (more the 20% difference) - Lessens
(THIS is the most important factor � if the speed difference is too great, other factors will not help)...

Not correct.

The absolute, sine qua non, to get a coordinated fighter and bomber raid is to have the escorting fighters assigned the exact same altitude as the bombers. This is the trigger in the code.

Without having the exact same altitude, it is impossible to get a coordinated raid. At best only a cooperative raid will ensue; one where because there is a commonality of purpose different units will converge independently at the same point and cooperatively assist to a certain extent each others efforts.

Alfred

Altitude triggers the code, but will not override (at least not every time) the cruise speed delta. This is why you constantly see the slow Idas and Devastators arrive LAST and ALONE in coordinated raids, and fast A-20s arrive before escorts. Experienced pilots are too precious to take chances with them like that and I try to group my bombers/fighters by their cruise speeds.

I believe Alfred's point is that the coordination code is triggered by altitude, not cruise speed. The dev's have stated that. Statements to the contrary are not accurate.
That there are other factors and other code involved is not being disputed. However, without the coordination code being triggered, getting missions to arrive at the same time is a lower probability, much lower in my experience (except the initial PH strike which we also know has some hard coding involved so cannot be referenced for this discussion.)

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 4/14/2018 6:04:07 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/16/2018 9:07:31 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Let me clarify.

There are factors that can be influenced by the player (altitude, HQ, exp, morale, AIR skill etc.) and those which cannot be influenced by the player (weather and cruise speed). Weather is fickle and cruise speed is set in stone, so to speak. If you max the adjustable factors, it is still weather/cruise speed combo that is affecting negatively the raid coordination chance. You can circumvent the weather by placing participating air groups in one single base. However, you are still left with the cruise speed problem. That is why I ment the speed is the overriding factor. Granted, you can influence the cruise speed by deleting some aircraft models and adding other aircraft models. This is suboptimal solution, subject to model availibility and airframe numbers. You can also elect to do nothing and wonder from time to time why your marauding bomber group just got wiped out by enemy CAP.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 4/16/2018 9:10:36 AM >

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Post #: 20

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/16/2018 9:24:58 AM

L0ckAndL0ad

Posts: 183
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From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline

To share my humble experience.

Got a txt log file from my (now abandoned) 2017 campaign. I was rather skeptical of the Dutch, but they managed to do some damage to the enemy anyway. They've suffered heavy losses in the process tho.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Buitenzorg at 47,99

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 13
B-339D x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 8 damaged
139WH-3: 1 destroyed by flak
B-339D: 6 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Kako
CA Kinugasa

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x 139WH-3 bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
4 x 139WH-3 bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 300 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Buitenzorg at 47,100

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 13

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 14
B-339D x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 8 damaged
139WH-3: 1 destroyed by flak
B-339D: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x 139WH-3 bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
5 x 139WH-3 bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 300 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1 with A5M4 Claude (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better than nothing!

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 21

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/16/2018 10:07:08 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Had you flown the bombers at 2000 feet, they would have carried 3 x 300kg bombs and used a different Nav skill for bombing...

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)

Post #: 22

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/17/2018 7:05:02 AM

L0ckAndL0ad

Posts: 183
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Had you flown the bombers at 2000 feet, they would have carried 3 x 300kg bombs and used a different Nav skill for bombing...

Isn't it 5000ft?

I was experimenting back then. These are the best results I got so far with untrained Dutch pilots. Oh, and I just looked up their skills, both NavB and LowN are around 25-27, so it doesn't really matter which one is used :D Bomb saturation is one thing to think about, yes, indeed!

The Dutch subs are great, tho! Without those faulty USN torpedoes. They hit hard! If they hit at all....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Donggala at 69,96

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVII

SS KXVII launches 6 torpedoes at CV Akagi
KXVII diving deep ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Donggala at 68,97

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVII

SS KXVII launches 4 torpedoes at CV Kaga
KXVII diving deep ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze attacking submerged sub ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We'd better get back, cause it'll be dark soon, and they mostly come at night... mostly." (Newt, Aliens)

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 23

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/17/2018 2:45:55 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Had you flown the bombers at 2000 feet, they would have carried 3 x 300kg bombs and used a different Nav skill for bombing...

Isn't it 5000ft?

I was experimenting back then. These are the best results I got so far with untrained Dutch pilots. Oh, and I just looked up their skills, both NavB and LowN are around 25-27, so it doesn't really matter which one is used :D Bomb saturation is one thing to think about, yes, indeed!

The Dutch subs are great, tho! Without those faulty USN torpedoes. They hit hard! If they hit at all....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Donggala at 69,96

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVII

SS KXVII launches 6 torpedoes at CV Akagi
KXVII diving deep ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Donggala at 68,97

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVII

SS KXVII launches 4 torpedoes at CV Kaga
KXVII diving deep ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze attacking submerged sub ....
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Numakaze fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We'd better get back, cause it'll be dark soon, and they mostly come at night... mostly." (Newt, Aliens)

As originally released (and still in the manual) the max height for LowN was 5000 feet. There was also a band where DBs could "glide bomb", a sort of shallow dive bombing with accuracy in between dive bombing (best) and level bombing (poorest). In one of the patches about 2 years ago the whole air model was adjusted and glide bombing was eliminated. At the same time, the max LowN altitude became 1999 feet and 2000+ uses the NavB skill.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)

Post #: 24

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 4/17/2018 9:30:23 PM

L0ckAndL0ad

Posts: 183
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline

Oh, yes, 2000 ft it is. Still, without any training, their chances are almost nil. Like if it were B-17s doing 20K ft NavB (Midway).

Coming back to original OP, one should stick with one escort squadron per strike package. And preferably one type of strike a/c. I'll use my current campaign as an example here: bombers keep failing coordination and proceed alone. B-339D+139WH-3 pairing works good, while mash up like the one below is a no-no. Second and third strikes are the ones that failed to link up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Bandjermasin at 60,102

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 15
B-339D x 6
CW-21B Demon x 8
75A-7 Hawk x 8

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 2 damaged
139WH-3: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CS Chiyoda
CS Mizuho
CA Kumano
CS Chitose

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x 139WH-3 bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb
6 x 139WH-3 bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Bandjermasin at 60,102

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 9

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CS Mizuho
CA Kumano

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x 139WH-3 bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Bandjermasin at 60,102

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 9

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CS Chitose
DD Mutsuki

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x 139WH-3 bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 3 x 300 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and while we're at it, do the TBs level bomb with bombs? My TBD-1s, with decent (62ish) NavB seem to be actually hitting stuff, from 10K ft. Or so they say

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Madang at 97,123

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 3
TBD-1 Devastator x 7

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
103 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Azuma Maru

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 25

RE: bomber fighter coordination in DEI - 7/15/2019 1:34:53 PM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

The last attack is a perfect example of bugged torpedo bombers on Naval attack. Hitting a ship with bombs from 10,000 feet in Thuderstorms weather achieving 15% accuracy. Vastly devastating.

(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)

Post #: 26