Extended range strike and tanking questions

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Extended range strike and tanking questions

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Extended range strike and tanking questions

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/8/2018 1:45:15 PM

fatgreta1066

Posts: 470
Joined: 12/30/2012
Status: offline

I'm trying to figure out a way to accomplish a very long range SEAD strike against the USS Ronald Reagan carrier group in the Salvo scenario from Chains of war. I have 4 tankers available. My most recent attempt is to set up two tanker stations as shown in the diagram. I'm hoping to have it work where there is one tanker on station at a time, so the strike aircraft can tank 2x on the way out and 2x on the way back. Working the distance and timing out on this is tricky, especially since I can't accurately calculate how much fuel will be needed to keep the strike aircraft flying. My current thinking is to assign the strike flight to the tanker support mission, then re-assign it to the next tanker support mission after it fills up, then assign it to the strike mission after it fills a second time. If I can figure out the logistics that might work. I'd be most interested in thoughts or feedback about this approach.

I also have a second related question. If I assign the strike aircraft and 1 or 2 tankers to the same mission, let's say a support mission close to the target, will the strike aircraft top off as needed while all the aircraft remain flying toward the location selected? I'm thinking I could launch such a mission with two tankers and the strike aircraft, then have two tankers situated at the locations I'm currently using to get the strike aircraft back to base. Thoughts about that? Or perhaps other thoughts I've not considered?

Attachment (1)

Post #: 1

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/8/2018 2:43:25 PM

guanotwozero

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline

I agree it's difficult to work out such fuel budgets accurately in the current CMANO, so estimates will have to do.

One approach may be to assign some tankers as an escort to the main strike/SEAD aircraft (not sure if that's possible), so as to get them to target and partway back. While they're underway, the remaining tankers could fly to a RV station to meet them on the way back. All go home together.

If tankers can't be escorts, then arrange them as complementary out/back missions. Remember A/C on a mission can be told to refuel from specific tanker missions in the new config options, so striker-serving tankers can refuel from other tankers. One minor hassle is timing the RVs, as combat and tanker A/C will have different cruise speeds.

One potential problem - can the tankers refuel other tankers? If not, then you need to coordinate your outgoing ones so that they serve until Bingo then return (probably sequentially), and then those supporting the return trip are timed accordingly to do similar. No point wasting loiter fuel if you don't have to. You'll have to do a certain amount of hands-on management to achieve that, as the refuel settings don't allow for different sequential tankers other than "use nearest".

No tanker-tanker AAR would rule out Black Buck-style missions, limiting the range to what individual tankers can usefully manage.

(in reply to fatgreta1066)

Post #: 2

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/8/2018 4:21:40 PM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline

Tankers can be added to escort another mission, although I haven't actually tested the outcome.

Tanker to Tanker refueling works as long as the tankers are equipped, I think most are except for KC-130s, Combat Talons can.

In the clip the 'Probe Refuelling' is intake while the Drogue is outflow. It would be nice if the DB would show the in and out bits as it does for ships.

Doing this will take a spreadsheet and some chewing on a pencil but I think I would do it like this:

1. Set up the strike mission, don't assign AC to it yet
2. Set up a holding area just short (less than one refueling) distance away. At least 2 RPs Make a support mission 'Holding' (for eg)
3. Use the same RPs to make up 3 more holding missions - Tanker 1, 2, 3. Assign 2 tankers to #1 with a no refueling setting, one to each of the others.
4. You can probably automate this but I'll walk through the micro: Tell Tanker 2 & 3 to refuel from Tanker 1, tell the bombers to refuel from Tanker 2
5. Have your doctrine set to 'No tanker to tanker' refueling - until just before you think Tanker 2 will have to turn back. The bombers will be drinking from Tanker 2 all the way but the 4 tankers will be chugging along blissfully until you turn that switch on.
6. When you turn Tanker to Tanker fueling on - Tanker 2 and Tanker 3 should take a drink from Tanker 1 (2 AC) which should be big and once they are done, delete Tanker 1 mission and send those to back to set up for the Bomber RTB fueling.
7. Now set Tanker 2 to refuel from Tanker 3 and turn off the T2T refueling again
8. Just before Tanker 2 turn back again, turn on T2T refueling again - this should fill up Tanker 2 and send Tanker 3 home - reversing this might work better just have to be careful to tell the bombers to switch fuel pumps
9. Once the bombers finish their last tank before the target, assign them to the strike mission. If you remaining tanker still has a bunch of gas then let him hang out at the holding area.
10 On the return route setting up a couple 1AC support orbits should do it I think.

You may have to turn off RTB when Bingo to allow this to work.

Have not tried this but it should work - and there is probably more efficient ways of doing it as well.

B

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 4/8/2018 4:24:39 PM >

(in reply to guanotwozero)

Post #: 3

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/8/2018 5:30:27 PM

guanotwozero

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
...
Have not tried this but it should work - and there is probably more efficient ways of doing it as well.

This is nice!

One thing to bear in mind is the prep time for returned tankers; if that takes too long, you'll need enough spare to meet the returning strike/tanker team. It could be you can get away with three tankers on the way out, with one tanker bingoing at a time. The unladen bombers should burn fuel more slowly on the way back, so one more tanker RV may suffice.

Another approach is to look at the strike mission and try to work out the "brackets" where it wants to refuel. Then the task is to work out the most efficient way of arranging a tanker to be at each of those brackets.

For the early brackets, a single tanker (slower, so leaving beforehand) is enough. A later bracket would warrant a tanker pair, with one bingoing to extend the range of the other. Again, timing the takeoff ahead of the bombers (and the closer bracket tanker) is a good idea. For further brackets, maybe even triples of tankers could be used, and/or arranging for a corresponding tanker to leave later to meet returnees.

A refinement on that is that after serving at a bracket, a tanker still has spare fuel so will fly on to a further bracket (maybe half as far again) to serve again then bingo. This will help determine where brackets should be.

I'm not sure if refuelling requires loiter or can be done at cruise - anyone know? But that should be taken into account for timings.

(in reply to Gunner98)

Post #: 4

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/12/2018 7:07:07 PM

Eggstor

Posts: 349
Joined: 1/24/2016
Status: offline

The good news is you can (just) do this on two tankings total - one inbound, one outbound. The bad is I couldn't get the strike mission to work properly when doing this through the Scenario Editor (the planes refused to climb above 12,000 feet and thus burned too much fuel to get to the Reagan even with tanking). The ugly - well, you're attacking a well-armed carrier group complete with fighters and long-range SAMs, and doing it on the far side of an island with multiple air bases and early-warning radars (which means it would probably be suicide to be operating in close proximity).

- If you're trying to set the strike itself up by mission, set up a no-nav zone to make sure the planes don't cut across Kyushu.
- Set up a tanker orbit about 700 nm from Quzhou (remember, the strike portion is a round-trip, so the orbit needs to be closer to the target than to your base), and send the first 2 tankers to it. I'd recommend using two tanker support missions (one for the outbound tanking, one for the inbound tanking), but you can use the 1/3rd rule to initially send up only 2 tankers.
- When the tankers hit the coast, send up the strikers. If you're using a strike mission, in the Tanker Planner (hit the "Configure" button on the line that says "Tankers" in the Mission Editor) you'll need to check "Launch mission without tankers in place", and you definitely will want to zero out the "Receivers start looking for tanker when down to x percent of mission fuel".
- When the strikers hit the coast, send up the other 2 tankers and send them to the tanker orbit. If you used a single tanker mission, uncheck the 1/3rd rule to get them airborne.
- Manually refuel the strikers when they get to the first 2 tankers. They won't all get a full load of fuel if you're sending all 5 ARM-equipped aircraft, but they'll get enough fuel to get to the target and back to the refuel orbit.
- If you're doing this manually, send the strikers after the carrier group and turn off refueling, RTB for bingo fuel and RTB for weapons state for them. If you don't turn off refueling, the striker(s) that don't get a full load of fuel will be looking for the other 2 tankers long before it/they get into weapons range. If you don't turn off RTB, the strikers will try to cut across Kyushu either immediately (bingo fuel) or once they launch (weapons state).
- Again if you're doing it manually, once the weapons are launched, send the strikers back to the refueling point. If you turned off refueling, turn it back on once the second set of tankers arrive on station.
- Refuel once the strikers get to the refueling track. When refueling is complete (again, the strikers will not get a full load of fuel, but they'll get enough to get back to base), get everybody back to base and delete the missions.

One note - if you can get the strike mission to transit at 36,000 feet, there's an option in the Tanker Planner to allow enroute refueling. I'd recommend using it

Of course, you'll probably want to write 29 letters of condolences (6 crew in each of the HY-6Us and 1 in each of the Su-30s) before you set up this mission.

< Message edited by Eggstor -- 4/12/2018 7:13:13 PM >

(in reply to guanotwozero)

Post #: 5

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/15/2018 4:18:26 PM

Dannyp19

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline

A2AR in extended range missions is a pencil chewing nightmare, but it is possible.
I submit Operation Black Buck as an example. The devil is in the details, more importantly the mission planners refueling options with emphasis on which tanker mission to refuel from and the percentage fuel option.
In the attached save the refueling is pretty much done with no micromanaging. The only problem I had was when the last outbound tanker finished I had to change the strikers fuel to look for tankers percentage from 80 to 20 percent to prevent the striker from turning around going after its inbound tanker.
When goofing around with this I found that using tankers as escorts didn't work at all. This also took quite a few test tries(think of it as training missions)to get he timing right. But it is doable.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Eggstor)

Post #: 6

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 4/16/2018 2:00:20 PM

TyphoonFr

Posts: 138
Joined: 11/23/2017
From: FRA
Status: offline

That's how I would proceed:

I would reflect and I would point out to my superior General Fatgretta1066 that this is a suicide mission that has no chance of success.
I'm not sure it's a good idea to use a SEAD mission to attack ships like a carrier.
Is General Fatgretta1066 aware that an aircraft carrier can carry more than 100 aircraft ?
Afterwards, he will come to complain that all these planes were destroyed or that his SU-30 destroyed the first land radar they found instead of attacking a US fleet with some Anti Radar missiles.
But even though many of our brave pilots will not see their families again, we will try to help him.

If you look at the flight profile SU 30MKK In the section 'Aircraft Loadouts' of BD viewers, and we find 'Range and profile':

Bomber SU-30MKK Fanker G, Loadout detail: Yj-91 [Kh-31p, ARM], China KG-600 DECM Pod, Long Range

570nm Strike radius, Hi-Med Hi profile.Cruise at 36k ft.
100nm (50nm + 50nm) dash on target at 12kt ft.
Weapons release at max range.
Form-up 10min at 2k ft. 10% reserves.

570nm Strike radius, Hi-Med Hi profile.Cruise at 36k ft. :
The plane will take off, climb to 36kt at cruising speed (480kts).

100nm (50nm+50nm) dash on target at 12kt ft:
At 110nm from the target, 50nm + 60nm (max range of the weapon), the plane will go down to 12kt ft still at cruising speed (480kts).It will consume more fuel.
Weapons release at max range:
At max range of the weapon, 60mn for the YJ-91, the plane will launch his weapon and turn around, always at 12k ft and 480kt. Without the Air Ground armament, the plane will consume less than on the way.
At 110nm from the target, 50nm+60nm (max range of the weapon), the plane will go up to 36kt ft at cruising speed (480kts) and RTB.
The plane can therefore travel 1140nm in total (570nm*2)
10% reserves
This allows to calculate the fuel mission (Mission Fuel=Total Fuel-reserves)

When assigning a plane to a 'long distance' strike (apart from 'mission radius'), and there is no tanker in flight, the aircraft does not take off and a message appears in the message Log (It takes fifteen minutes for this message to appear):

"03/07/2018 01:20:00 - [China] Mission Mission: <name>, aircraft type Su-30MKK Flanker G with loadout YJ-91 [Kh-31P, ARM], China KG-600 DECM Pod, Long-Range based on Quzhou AB (PLAAF) cannot launch! Reason: The mission is configured to use air-to-air refuelling. However there is no tanker available within reasonable reach. The tanker must be located between the strike aircraft's take-off location and the target, within tactical radius of the target (570 nm), and within range of the strike aircraft's current location (1208 nm). No flightplan has been generated and the mission will not launch."

1208nm is the maximum flight distance with all the loading at 36k ft at cruising speed (480kts) .The speed, altitude and consumption will be constant.
With a single refueling zone and 2 AARs, the aircraft can reach a target at 1778nm (570nm + 1208nm).The tanker must be positioned at 570nm max from the target and at 1208nm max from the base of the bomber.

The target is at 1110nm (490nm+270nm+350nm),so only one supply zone will be sufficient. Just put a tanker at 570nm max of the target.
For this example, set it to 350nm from the target (RP-7247/RP-7248) and 760nm (490nm+270nm) from Quzhou AB, base of SU-30MKK

Now you have to know the consumption in Kg / mn of the SU-30MKK:

Total fuel SU-30MKK = 9420kg
Maximum flight distance SU-30MKK =1208 nm
Mission Fuel = Total Fuel-reserves =9420kg-10%=9420kg-942kg=8478kg
Consumption (kg/nm) = Fuel Mission/Maximum flight distance=8478kg/1208nm= 7.01kg/nm, rounded to 7.5kg/nm

To reach the tanker area, the SU-30MKK will consume:
Fuel required mission SU-30MKK = Distance * Consumption = 760nm*7.5 kg/nm = 5700kg

And his flight time to the refueling area will be:
(Distance*60)/speed = 760nm*60/480kts = 95 minutes
To get back and forth from the refueling area to the target, the SU-30MKK will consume:
(350nmx2)*7.5kg / nm = 5250kg
And his flight time will be:
(Distance*60)/speed = 700nm*60/480kts = 88 rounded up to 90 minutes
WARNING a tanker must be present on the zone for 90 minutes.
There will remain 4170kg (9420kg-5250kg) in the tanks of the SU-30 when it will reach the refueling zone on the return and it will need 1530kg (5700kg - 4170kg) to reach its base.

A SU-30MKK will need a total of 7230kg (5700kg + 1530kg) of additional fuel for the mission.
We can also do like this:
(Total Mission Distance*Consumption)-Tank Capacity = (2220nm*7.5kg/nm)-9420kg = 7230kg
I use 5700kg for the return, but it will need less than that, without its A-G weapons, it will consume less than the go.

With the help of the editor, if I remove the YJ-91 from a SU-30, its consumption is 40kg/min and 5kg/nm is 3800kg to make the 760nm that separate the area of refueling base. So there is a chance for the SU-30 not refueling back

Now see the tanker:
Tanker HY-6 U Badger:
Total fuel HY-6 U Badger = 36000kg
Mission radius Badger = 1950 nm
Total Distance Badger = 1950mn x2 = 3900nm
Mission Fuel = Total Fuel-reserves = 36000kg-10% = 36000kg-3600kg = 32400kg
Consumption kg / nm = 32400kg / 3900nm = 8.3, rounded to 8.5kg / nm

The tanker takes off from Shaodong AB, located 400nm from Quzhou AB
The support zone (RP-7247 / RP-7248) will be approximately 1160nm (400nm + 760nm) from the Badger base.

To join and return, the badger will consume:
Fuel mission required Badger = (Total mission distance*Consumption)+5%=(2320nm x 8.5kg/nm)+5% = 20706kg

Warning, it takes time for a big plane to reach its cruising altitude. During his ascent, his consumption will be higher, so I add 5%.

Flight time to the support area will be:
(Distance*60)/speed = 1160nm*60/420kts = 165 rounded up to 170 minutes
The tanker will have to take off 75minutes (170min-95min) before the SU-30MKK

The amount of fuel available for the receivers can be calculated:
Fuel available for receiver = Mission Fuel Badger - Fuel required mission = 32400kg-20706 kg = 11694kg

On the zone, the tanker will consume 46,52kg / min (DB viewers) at 36k ft and loiter, or 4190kg for 90 minutes.

To arrive on zone a Badger will be able to refuel 2 SU-30MKK:
11694kg / 5700kg = 2
and after it will remain to him approximately 294kg is about 6minutes of patrol before having RTB:
11694kg-(5700kg*2)/46.52 = 6.3minutes

If a Badger refuels a single SU-30 and waits for 90 minutes his return, he will have only 1804kg(11694kg-5700kg-4190kg) to give the SU-30,that needs 1530kg to return to its base.

A tanker by SU-30 and a refueling area should suffice.

So with 4 tankers, I will use 4 SU-30MKK maximum. And to optimize the fuel I would proceed as follows:

2 tankers (A, B) will refuel the 4 SU-30 and RTB,a tanker(C) will 'support' for 90min. A tanker(D) will join him and should arrive 5 minutes before the return of the SU-30.Thus, the D tanker that will not support for 90min will have more fuel to give.

In return, if the SU-30 refuel, they can use the tankers C and D
The tanker C will have 7504kg (11694kg-4190kg) and the tanker D will have about 11694kg, a total of more than 19000kg, or 4750kg by SU-30

I create a Strike mission (4 SU 30MKK) and I select 'Launch mission without tankers in place' and turn off RTB when Bingo

I create a AAR Support Missions #1 using RP-7247/RP-7248 and I assign 3 Badgers(A,B,C) by limiting the number of receivers in
queue to 2 per tanker.

I create a AAR Support Missions #2 with RP-7247/RP-7248 and I assign 1 Badger(D)

After taking off the strike, the flight plan must be modified

H + 0: Activation of the Support mission #1.
H + 75mn: Activation of the Strike mission. Modification of the flight plan
H + 85mn: Activation of the Support Mission #2.
H + 170mn: 1st AAR and RTB tankers A and B. Start of the tanker C support mission.
H + 255mn: Start of the support mission #2 of the tanker D.
H + 260mn: 2nd AAR and RTB tankers C and D.
H + 340mn: Landing of tankers A and B.
H + 355mn: Landing SU-30MKK.
H + 430mn: Landing tankers C and D.

If you decide to fly together the Badger and SU-30, you have to pay attention to their cruising speeds which are different.

All this remains of the theory, and it is necessary to call to a madman to put it into practice of this case.

It takes a lot more escort and attack planes,so more tankers,or be crazy to think that this is likely to succeed.

What will we tell the families of the pilots ... .

< Message edited by TyphoonFr -- 4/16/2018 2:05:08 PM >

_____________________________

Christophe

To all English teachers of the forum, sorry if English is not my mother language.

(in reply to fatgreta1066)

Post #: 7

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 8/8/2020 5:50:57 PM

Sybaris

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/14/2015
Status: offline

fatgreat1066 ........ did you ever get this to work manually or automatically when playing the other side?

(in reply to fatgreta1066)

Post #: 8

RE: Extended range strike and tanking questions - 8/20/2020 6:54:40 PM

Sybaris

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/14/2015
Status: offline

This is a good tutorial on how to do it.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI0AHco5yk4

(in reply to Sybaris)

Post #: 9

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Extended range strike and tanking questions

Page: [1]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

1.344

Slitherine

Extended range strike and tanking questions