10thlegion
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/18/2018
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Here is a long answer. The first part is my response to a friend asking my impressions of TOAW 4 and Red Thunder II in particular. I had previously played the old SSI Red Lightning PC game, which Red Thunder II is loosely based on. So I was familiar with the game scenario and also know what both NATO and Warsaw Pact planned if a war broke out. I played the Kasserine Pass and Desert Storm scenarios to learn how the game worked before trying Red Thunder II.
1. The US Corps Vth and VII Corps, plus II GE Corps are tough to handle in the center and south. 8 Gds and 1st Gds Tank Army, plus the 2 Czech Armies have their hands full and in fact got pushed back into East German and Czechoslovakia on the defensive. For some reason the NATO computer put I Fr Corps into the south, where the extra strength wasn’t really needed (should have been sent to NORTHAG) unless the intent was to push hard and deep into East Germany.
2. I did the Warsaw Pact airborne division and naval infantry regt attacks on Denmark, which went well. Copenhagen fell on day 3. I sent a East German and Polish Army up the peninsula to clear out the German Pz Gren division that defended even after Denmark surrendered. That used about one airborne division worth of regiments. I used the remaining 3 abn regts in the middle game, trying to slow down reinforcements to NORTHAG coming from the POMCUS sites and UK. That didn’t work real well.
4. The air campaign went like this. First two weeks, the WP air forces were able to keep NATO tactical and interdiction to a minimum. After the 3rd week, NATO interdiction strikes became more frequent and effective. By the 4th week, any of my units were getting interdiction strikes and tac air/CAS go much more intense. By the last week of the campaign, NATO air was hitting me hard with CAS and interdiction, trying to keep me from really running deep into the NATO rear areas. I watched a few of my regiments get significantly attritted to the point of nearly being unusable. NATO air is effective and plentiful. Both sides have lots of attack helicopters. I’m not sure I’m figured out how to best use them. From what I can tell, you can either use them as long range artillery, assigning them to specific battles, or fly them into a unit stack and use them as an artillery unit.
5. Observations about how the game works.
a. Offense is stronger than the defense oddly enough. If you look at the combat factors, each combat unit is typically twice as strong offensively as defensively. So what I learned through hard knocks was always attack if I needed to defend. If I just sat in the defense I got my hat handed to me. So when I play NATO, this should be interesting. Incidentally the computer NATO player was constantly attacking until unit values got extremely low, then it would defend. The key is to have at multiple layers of units on defense or tactical reserves (you can give units the tactical reserve command) to automatically plug holes before an enemy unit pushes through. The computer loved to punch a one hex hole in my line and run units through behind my lines. Once I got the hint to put 2nd line units on tactical or local reserve, that cut down on breakthroughs. So try for continuous front of units with tactical reserves at least every other hex behind the front line.
b. The software rules for retreating units suck. You don’t control your defending unit retreats, the computer does it automatically. It consistently retreated my units behind enemy lines rather than staying in touch with friendly forces. Not much I could do about it, but I hate losing units because of the programs whimsical retreat decisions.
c. It took me nearly two weeks of incessant fighting to crack the Weser River line between Bremen and Hannover. What I learned is you just have to grind down the defense, again attacking as much as possible. Eventually the Dutch and Germans just ran out of units to hold the line. The way I played it, 3rd Shock Army pinned I British Corps to a battle of attrition around Hannover. 2nd Gds Tank cleared the north side of the Elbe up to Hamburg then conducted bridging operations just east of the city and established bridgeheads. After pushing west and cutting off Hamburg, 20th Guards was committed to help crack the Weser River line. I almost quit the game at that point because I was getting frustrated with the constant counterattacks every time I made a significant advance. It was a constant see saw fight every turn, advance two hexes, get pushed back two hexes.
d. There are lots of support units; bridging units are very important, particularly since either side can blow bridges. Contrary to expectation, Warsaw Pact units can’t ford rivers. No bridge, no crossing. Engineer units can cross on their own and repair dropped bridges. The Warsaw Pact hqs units have the army level artillery assets, plus there are separate artillery brigades on both sides. There is mobile ADA, security, MPs, etc. The computer likes to use these units for combat operations. At one point in the game, III Corps Hqs was defending a bridge crossing site I was tempted to attack. I think the game designers give these type of units more combat capability then they really have. If you just add up equipment to determine combat power, I can see where you might think combat support/service support units can do more than they really can. It’s a bit of gamesmanship, but something to watch out for if you get the game and play the computer. There are lift helicopters but I never tried them out. I think this is more for the NATO player as the computer was throwing lots of air assaults and airborne drops in the last 4 days of the game, trying to slow me down. Yes, the 82nd Abn got commited vicininty of Arnhem, great irony. NATO has tons of SOF and they show up everywhere. The computer made two strong attempts to retake Denmark using SOF to recapture a port, then landing a mech bde in my rear. I kept the Soviet Abn Div (it is mech afterall), plus a couple of Polish tank regts to secure the Danish peninsula.
e. Units are hard to kill. First, units have steps, so you do step reduction. Plus, if a unit has a minimize loss setting, it will retreat rather than take losses. There was one NATO bridging unit that took me 4 days to kill with two mech bdes supported by artillery – hmmm, something odd here. If you really want to kill a unit, you have to physically surround it with attacking units.
f. The computer gives you odds for each attack and a rating on what to expect, good, bad, whatever. For some reason, the computer tends to be pessimistic, so I ignored the rating and just did the old 3:1 or better to have a go.
6. Key to success as the Warsaw Pact (WP)/Soviet player is to start by going where NATO isn't with lead units and let follow on forces take care of defending units. The best terrain for the WP is the area between Hamburg and Hannover, known as the North German Plain. Also NATO is weakest here at the start of the game. If you follow my recommendations below, you will get the Weser River line in the first 3-4 turns. The other attacks towards Frankfurt and Nuremburg are going to stall because US V and VII Corps are very strong and the terrain is better for the defense. That's okay, but you have to keep the US forces busy so they don't shift north.
7. In the north, use your airborne and naval infantry to take out Copenhagen on the first two turns. Send the 5th GDR Army into Denmark to take out the NATO Jutland Corps. 2nd Gds Tank Army should use bridging units and cross the Elbe River south of Hamburg, do not attack into the city, bypass. 3rd Shock Army heads due west just north of Hannover with the Weser River line as the immediate objective. 3rd GDR Army heads due west and keeps linked up with 3rd SA to the north and 8th Gds Tank Army to the south. 8th Gds Army objective is Frankfurt. 1st CSR Army objective is Nurnberg. 4th CSR Army can either cross the Danube and head to Munich or move northeast and link up with 1st CSR Army supporting it's attack on Nuremberg. 20 Gds Army and Berlin Garrison take out NATO defenders in Berlin using all available units. It will probably take 3-4 turns to eliminate all the defenders. Once Berlin is taken 20 Gds Army heads west to be committed between Hannover and Hamburg. If there is anything left of the Berlin Garrison it can be used to defend Denmark. 2nd PPR Army heads west and either supports 2nd Gds Tank Army by reducing Hamburg or heads north to help 5th GDR Army clear Denmark, depending on how well NATO is defending. 3rd PPR Army reinforces 3rd Shock Army push across the Weser River to break out to the west. 1st Gds Tank reinforces 8th Gds Army attacking Frankfurt.
8. The way this should play out is by day 7-8 the entire front is locked up along the Weser River, Kassel, Frankfurt, Danube line. I call it the grind phase because it is the attrition battle. The WP keeps feeding in follow on forces into the northern attack and if necessary goes over to the defense in the south.
9. Key tips, keep two lines of units if at all possible and put units in the second line in local or tactical defense/reaction mode to block NATO penetrations. You have to mass combat power to crack NATO. I will generally attack at anything over 3-1 odds, despite the combat outcome prediction. Only sure way to kill units is to surround them or force them to be eliminated because they exceed the 9-unit stacking limit when attempting to retreat.
10. The middle game, roughly turns 14 to 21, is attack, counter-attack over and over again. The front moves 2-4 hexes in both directions, but in the same area. I call it the grind and it keeps on going until one side starts to leave gaps or falls back rather than counter-attack. I have played both sides and beat the computer/programmed opponent both times, so it is possible.
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