[FIXED] Sensor detection

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[FIXED] Sensor detection

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Tech Support >> [FIXED] Sensor detection

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[FIXED] Sensor detection - 5/14/2018 11:47:31 PM

Kobu

Posts: 130
Joined: 5/14/2018
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Hi guys
While i was playing the new scenario "Commonwealth collision" i had a doubt.
I sent my f-35b to the coast and then these was detected by a normal radar (JY-26) at 60 NM (ok, nothing to say) but too for a "Generic TV Camera" in a F 251 Zulfiquar. I look at this sensor and is a normal camera without "FLIR". My doubt is if this kind of sensor really can detect or search a fighter at this distances (85 NM).

Besides a pair of F-16 came to intercept me (alerted by the JY-26 Radar) and they can launch his 120s to me. The F-16 detect me with the Sniper XR Pod which i think that cant search air contacts. Whit a radar contact the F-16 can point the Sniper Pod to me and tracking and identify me but only with sniper pod they cant search any air contact.

On the other hand altought the radar JY-26 or the sniper pod can detect me and tracking they cant launch a 120 to me. Only whith a radar contact of his radar (F-16) they could launch me a 120 and they dont have a radar contact at 60NM.

I dont now if is a bug or i dont understand something.

Sorry for my english and thanks in advance.
Regards

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< Message edited by Dimitris -- 10/31/2018 8:21:03 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Sensor detection - 5/15/2018 12:12:49 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Could the F-16s have fired the Amraams in boresight mode, ie with no input from the F-16s onboard radar, I believe they can be fired that way, they just have a much lower chance of hitting the enemy aircraft....

Cheers

(in reply to Kobu)

Post #: 2

RE: Sensor detection - 5/15/2018 3:54:22 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Hi there, I have had a look at your game, I loaded it in the editor and switched sides to see how the F16s where tracking and guiding the missiles.. The F16s are tracking the F35s via the Sniper pod, it is FLIR and capable of tracking air to air targets out to 100nm, so that's WAD I think.

I also believe that the F35s would be trackable by the cameras on the SAM and ship, they are pretty modern... after all the F35 is a medium sized jet :)

Cheers

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Post #: 3

RE: Sensor detection - 5/15/2018 4:31:11 PM

Kobu

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Joined: 5/14/2018
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Hi
Thanks for look it.

I think that the Sniper Pod cant search air contacts like the IRST system, i mean first the F16 have to lock F35 with his radar and then the sniper pod is pointed to this radar contact and in this way with the sniper pod track that contact for identify it. Search air contacts directly with sniper pod is very difficult or impossible either way although the sniper pod can detect it the f16 cant launch 120 with the tracking of sniper pod. The boresight mode could be an option (with the others radar like JY-26 the enemy know the position of F35) but i dont think that a launch in boresight mode at 60nm be possible.

I would understand that was detected by an IRST as a radar JY-26 have a contact and the enemy know his position but the sniper pod and the cameras i think that cant search it.

Anyway for a launch of 120 the f16 need to have a radar contact and they dont have it.

For example a Eurofighter who know the position of f35 (through the radar JY-26) whit his IRST can launch a 120 to a fighter whitout radar contact but the f16 cant.

Regards

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Post #: 4

RE: Sensor detection - 5/15/2018 5:22:27 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Hi :)

Is it possible the F16s know where to point the sniper pod because the Chinese radar is telling it where to find the F35s?

Im no expert and maybe wrong, one of the devs could have a look when they have time..

Thanks

(in reply to Kobu)

Post #: 5

RE: Sensor detection - 5/15/2018 6:03:36 PM

Kobu

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Hi

As far as i know the sniper pod cant point itself air contacts, it need a radar contact and then it is pointed to that radar contact and can identify it.
Let see if someone knows more.
Thanks for your time.

Regards

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)

Post #: 6

RE: Sensor detection - 5/16/2018 8:01:15 PM

Kobu

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Hi
I have been testing a couple of thing and:
- The F35 have been detected (first) by a radar, or the JY-26 (land radar) or the radar in the F 251 Zulfiquar (It depends on how close F35 fly from the boat). After a [Sensor: Piranha [IR] in the F 251 Zulfiquar classify it like multirole. After [Sensor: Generic TV Camera] in F 251 Zulfiquar classify it like F-35. I suppose that the [Sensor: Piranha [IR] and [Sensor: Generic TV Camera] can be lead by a radar to a radar contact to identify it but i dont understand like a JY-26 radar in the shore can do it, if the F35 was detected by the radar on the F 251 Zulfiquar (flying more close to it) it can lead these sensor to the F35 to classify it.
- At this point the enemy know the position of F35 and the F16 go to intercept it. The f16 launch his 120 at 60nm without a radar contact of his radar and aim his sniper pod to it.

What i mean is how the sensor work like if all of them be connected each. The f16 can not recive firing solution of no one to launch 120 to f35 althought the f16 know the position of f35. The f16 would have to have a radar contact of the f35 with his own radar to fire his 120.

Regards

(in reply to Kobu)

Post #: 7

RE: Sensor detection - 7/13/2018 7:40:55 PM

Kobu

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any news??

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Post #: 8

RE: Sensor detection - 7/23/2018 9:56:09 AM

Dimitris

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What is the issue again? I tried to follow this discussion but I'm not entirely clear on what the expected and happening behaviors are.

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Post #: 9

RE: Sensor detection - 7/25/2018 7:54:53 PM

Kobu

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hi
My doubt here is how the f-16 can fire 120s to the f-35 when the f-35 is not detected by the radar of the f-16. The f-35 is detected by a radar in the shore (JY-26) but as far i known that radar (JY-26) can not send fire solution to the f-16 for what the f-16 can not fire his 120s.
I saw this behaviors in many scenarios and i think that is not realisitic. All sensor in the game are connected among them and can pass information each. For example the Sniper Pod in the f-16 only can point to other plane when this plane is detected by the radar of his f-16 no by other radar.
In summary (although in the previous post i explain all this behaviors) the f-16 only can fire his 120s to the f-35 when the radar of this f-16 can detect or lock the f-35 no when other radar detect the f-35.
Sorry for my english.
Regards

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 10

RE: Sensor detection - 7/25/2018 8:13:58 PM

Dimitris

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Hi.

This is a known limitation of the current sensor and contact-management logics, when it comes to platforms that do not use modern fire control-grade datalinks like CEC/NIFC. (Platforms with suitable datalinks can indeed perform such "blind" shots, see HERE for an example).

The "correct" solution would be to enforce this limitation on all platforms that do not have such datalinks installed. However, because of its far-reaching repercussions (e.g. a plane may not be able to bomb a land unit whose location is externally provided), this is a change that must be applied very carefully as it has the potential to severely break existing works that do not factor this nuance.

Thanks for the heads up, and we'll give it a bump on our dev stack.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 7/25/2018 8:15:26 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Sensor detection - 7/25/2018 8:45:31 PM

Kobu

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hi
Thanks for the explanation.
In my opinion this problem is most of the time with air missiles since the bombs, ground missiles or other weapons can be launched with gps coordinates sended by others plataforms( tomahawk, sea missiles, gps bombs etc...).
A possible solution would be that certain weapons like 120s only can be launched from a plataform if this plataform can "see" the contact unless this plataform have a CEC or similar where this plataform only launch the weapon and this weapon would be guided by other plataform with CEC or similar.

Can you explain what plans or updates will come in the future related with this problem???

Regards

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 12

RE: Sensor detection - 7/25/2018 8:47:46 PM

Dimitris

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We will be able to talk more about this in detail in the future. Thanks!

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Post #: 13

RE: Sensor detection - 10/28/2018 4:58:43 PM

Dimitris

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Looked at this save now in greater detail.

The F-35 is initially detected by the YJ-26 radar on the coast, and that cues the F-16AM's Sniper-XR pod to precisely locate the F-35. Sniper can be used for air engagements and it provides fire control-grade data, which can be uplinked to the AMRAAM _even without a radar lock_.

Therefore, _in this specific case_, the simulation accurately reflects reality.

More generally, there are two separate but related limitations ATM:

1) An aircraft can fire an AMRAAM at a contact that it cannot itself detect by any sensor, but has been provided to it by another friendly unit (this would be the case above if the F-16AM was not in fact tracking the F-35 with its own Sniper-XR pod). Such a "blind fire" capability should normally be reserved only for CEC-capable platforms and weapons.

2) An aircraft can fire an AMRAAM at a contact that it itself has detected by ANY onboard sensor, including the Mk1 Eyeball which is not integrated to the aircraft's overall avionics & fire-control architecture. In RL, only sensors full integrated into the aircraft's avionics suite are able to provide targeting data to launch.

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Post #: 14

RE: Sensor detection - 10/28/2018 6:02:06 PM

Kobu

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First thanks for take your time and look this.

quote:

The F-35 is initially detected by the YJ-26 radar on the coast, and that cues the F-16AM's Sniper-XR pod to precisely locate the F-35. Sniper can be used for air engagements and it provides fire control-grade data, which can be uplinked to the AMRAAM _even without a radar lock_.

Im not an expert but IRL a ground based radar can send information (specifically "fire control information") to a fighter like a enemy fighter position that it has detected????? Besides this F16AM (this version other version from other countries if they have) does not have datalink. From the BMS and as far i know the Sniper pod cant lead an Amraam (correct me if I'm wrong).

As to the limitation i know both and i think that the solution is that an air missile only can be launched when a fighter that carry the missile is detecting the target same as SARH missile which cant be launched if the radar of the plane launcher cant "see" the target.
I know that this is difficult to implement is just an idea.

Regards

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Post #: 15

RE: Sensor detection - 10/28/2018 6:10:32 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kobu
Im not an expert but IRL a ground based radar can send information (specifically "fire control information") to a fighter like a enemy fighter position that it has detected????? Besides this F16AM (this version other version from other countries if they have) does not have datalink.

The EW radar doesn't need to send fire control-grade info. It can be as simple as "Blade 31, fuzzy contact on your roughly 7 o'clock high, estimate 30-50 miles". That's enough to cue a narrow-sector search by the Sniper pod.

quote:

From the BMS and as far i know the Sniper pod cant lead an Amraam (correct me if I'm wrong).

AFAIK it can, but I could be wrong. This ties to issue #2 (which of the sensors on an aircraft are sufficiently integrated to the avionics suite to provide fire-control data to the AMRAAM uplinks).

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Post #: 16

RE: Sensor detection - 10/28/2018 6:28:28 PM

Kobu

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Actually fixing up the issue #2 i think that this simulator would take a big step forward in simulation and would clarify the situation in particular air to air combat doing it more complex and realistic.
Anyway thanks and good job with the simulator i have many hours and it have a lot of potential.

Regards

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 17

RE: Sensor detection - 10/28/2018 8:25:49 PM

Sharana

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There isn't enough open source info that can tell if the pod can or can't provide targeting data for air to air missile. But the advertisement is:

quote:

The Sniper ATP is designed to provide air-to-ground and air-to-air targeting capability, to be more reliable and sustainable than any other in the field, and to be continuously upgraded with the most advanced technology.

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