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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/18/2018 7:54:51 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
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I just logged in after my turn and see Larry helpfully posted his defensive deployments :-). Next time maybe I should check the forum BEFORE my turn

In all seriousness I am happy not knowing as it adds some challenging guesswork to proceedings so will continue to do my turn first I think !

As it happens I wouldnt have changed much.

The British Royal Tank Regiment and 51st Division, noticing the thinning of German ranks ahead of them stormed through two weak Italian battalions and then overran the Marine garrison in Catania. This has the effect of releasing Larry's naval capability. As I thought Messina would be a pretty popular tourist destination right now for Axis potential evacuees I decided to unsportingly shell and bomb the port to see what we could damage and achieved some reasonable results.

The British having reached MT. Etna's east side are now confronted with strong dug in regiments of Panzer Grenadiers from what I expect is 15th Division so that is time for some consolidation.

In the north, elements of the US 1st armoured have occupied Nicosia and in the west the airfields have almost been reached by 7th Army's tanks.

An intensive bridge and rail maintainance programme was ordered but the engineers don't seem still to have got the memo.






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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/18/2018 8:36:39 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I was all set to sail some people to the Italian mainland but I discovered
that I don't have any sea cap yet. Maybe next turn.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/18/2018 8:44:09 PM   
larryfulkerson


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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/18/2018 10:28:19 PM   
MikeJ19


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Status: offline 		So, do Allied ships affect your transporting of soldiers across the straits?

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/18/2018 10:36:18 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
So, do Allied ships affect your transporting of soldiers across the straits?

It's been my experience that surface combat ships can sink exposed ( unescorted ) troops floating from one spot to another. If the stack is moving and it comes across an enemy ship and gets withing range of the enemy ship it's usually sunk. And aircraft strikes can be devestating. I'm thinking it might not be a good idea to try to float somebody to the mainland while those ships are stationed there. Every hex between Messina and the mainland is covered by the ships and floaters would be killed. It's a fine idea that Ian had to park his ships there.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 12:13:21 AM   
MikeJ19


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Status: offline 		Larry,

Do you have warships? If not, how about any air transport? This may be an early turning point if you can not get those units out of Sicily.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 12:20:50 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Larry,

Do you have warships? If not, how about any air transport? This may be an early turning point if you can not get those units out of Sicily.

The Axis side doesn't have any warships and my air cap is zero and that means that all the Axis units on the island are gonners. Eventually all of them will die. It's fate.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 12:35:05 AM   
MikeJ19


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Status: offline 		Damn, that is going to be hard for you...

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 12:35:47 AM   
MikeJ19


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From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Are you going to be more aggressive on Sicily then. You might as well make the Allies work really hard to take you out.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 6:10:59 AM   
devoncop


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The decision about the semi blockade of Messina is not an easy one. I am gambling on the short term gain of a long slog into Messina v much more numerous German forces being offset by facing much less on the mainland but it may all go horribly wrong ....the danger is the Allies get seriously bogged down in capturing Messina and burn up too many turns. As an experiment it is useful though as it may define my approach as Axis in the future. If the fortification and maximum defence of the areas around Mt Etna really can stall the Allied advance then the whole strategy of evacuating Sicily may be wrong.....

This turn the remaining pockets of German troops south and west of the MLR each side of Etna were pretty much overrun and US armour has reached the west coast and also is a turn away in the north from cutting the island in half.

The Panzer Grenadiers manning the front are starting to be whittled down by British artillery and air attack and further attacks are made on supporting artillery I can see, including the infernal nebelwerfers....





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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 7:29:59 AM   
larryfulkerson


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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 7:33:37 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Are you going to be more aggressive on Sicily then. You might as well make the Allies work really hard to take you out.

I like that idea. Counterattacking. Well, but he's got aerial superiority and bou cou CS missions set and the ships can reach my units from where they are parked and I'm thinking that my attack would be more losses for me than he will suffer and the ratio is wrong. Attacking would be counterproductive. But on the other hand, more units on Sicily will allow me to delay the Allies longer. That's the theory.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 9:34:31 AM   
devoncop


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A heavily truncated turn as after clearing the last couple of stragglers around Gerbini airfield and doing a quick scouting bombing run on Messina (Larry seems to have moved some of the frustrated evacuees away) I failed a proficiency test !

Given the scouting run at Messina I did have chance to divert the ships away from Messina bombardment to offshore of Nicotera on the east coast of the mainland where intelligence spotted what appeared to be the entire 90th Panzer Grenadier Division assembling. This got shelled for 1 round before the proficiency test fail leaving the ships away from their blockade points off Messina...Larry may manage to slip some units through as a result... A bit of a pain.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 9:49:51 AM   
700851McCall

 

Posts: 171
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From: Staffordshire, England.
Status: offline 		I was wondering why the Allied navy were unable to counter the German withdrawal historically.
According to Wikipedia:

The German and Italian evacuation schemes proved highly successful. The Allies were not able to prevent the orderly withdrawal nor effectively interfere with transports across the Strait of Messina. The narrow straits were protected by 120 heavy and 112 light anti-aircraft guns.[117] The resulting overlapping gunfire from both sides of the strait was described by Allied pilots as worse than the Ruhr, making daylight air attacks highly hazardous and generally unsuccessful.[106] Night attacks were less hazardous and there were times when air attack was able to delay and even suspend traffic across the straits but when daylight returned, the Axis were able to clear the backlog from the previous night.[118] Nor was naval interdiction any more practicable. The straits varied from 2–6 miles (3.2–9.7 km) wide and were covered by artillery up to 24 centimeters (9.4 in) in caliber. This, combined with the hazards of a 6 knots (11 km/h; 6.9 mph) current, made risking warships unjustifiable and fear that Italian warships were preparing to attack the Straits of Messina in a suicide run.[117]

(source: Molony, Brigadier C. J. C.; Flynn, Captain F.C. (RN); Davies, Major-General H. L. & Gleave, Group Captain T. P. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO: 1973], Butler, Sir James, ed., The Mediterranean and Middle East: The Campaign in Sicily 1943 and The Campaign in Italy 3 September 1943 to 31 March 1944, History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series, V, Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press, ISBN 1-84574-069-6).

< Message edited by 700851McCall -- 5/19/2018 9:50:54 AM >

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 10:10:40 AM   
devoncop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 700851McCall

I was wondering why the Allied navy were unable to counter the German withdrawal historically.
According to Wikipedia:

The German and Italian evacuation schemes proved highly successful. The Allies were not able to prevent the orderly withdrawal nor effectively interfere with transports across the Strait of Messina. The narrow straits were protected by 120 heavy and 112 light anti-aircraft guns.[117] The resulting overlapping gunfire from both sides of the strait was described by Allied pilots as worse than the Ruhr, making daylight air attacks highly hazardous and generally unsuccessful.[106] Night attacks were less hazardous and there were times when air attack was able to delay and even suspend traffic across the straits but when daylight returned, the Axis were able to clear the backlog from the previous night.[118] Nor was naval interdiction any more practicable. The straits varied from 2–6 miles (3.2–9.7 km) wide and were covered by artillery up to 24 centimeters (9.4 in) in caliber. This, combined with the hazards of a 6 knots (11 km/h; 6.9 mph) current, made risking warships unjustifiable and fear that Italian warships were preparing to attack the Straits of Messina in a suicide run.[117]

(source: Molony, Brigadier C. J. C.; Flynn, Captain F.C. (RN); Davies, Major-General H. L. & Gleave, Group Captain T. P. (2004) [1st. pub. HMSO: 1973], Butler, Sir James, ed., The Mediterranean and Middle East: The Campaign in Sicily 1943 and The Campaign in Italy 3 September 1943 to 31 March 1944, History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series, V, Uckfield, UK: Naval & Military Press, ISBN 1-84574-069-6).



That was my understanding too...although there was also a fair degree of Allied disorganisation and complacency which meant the RN and other allied ships only started trying to block the straits when the evacuation was almost complete. In fact I have moved my ships anyway this turn as I am concerned about the risk of bombardment from both the Italian mainland and Messina from the large numbers of Italian heavy guns Larry still has.

The main effort against the evacuation will have to fall to the airforce I think.

I have to say the chances of a suicidal attack by the Italian navy as described above seem fanciful given the wavering commitment of the Italian armed forces by this time in the war.


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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 10:17:58 AM   
devoncop


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Heavy attacks go in by the British 50th and 51st Division along with the Royal Tank Regiment against the Panzer Grenadiers of the Herman Goering Divn east of Mt Etna. The Panzer Grenadiers fight ferociously and the attack is stalled though big losses are caused to the defenders as well as to the attacking forces.

The RN has had the responsibility for blocking the Messina strait removed due to concern about the Italian heavy guns on both sides of the strait and the RAF and USA air assets are given the task of hitting any convoys that attempt the crossing.

A small naval force is despatched north to try and inhibit any evacuation from Corsica or Sardinia but it is a long shot.

US troops have now almost reached Palermo and the MLR to the west of Mt Etna.

It should be noted that the next turn marks the historic fall of Messina so I am well behind schedule but of course the Axis have not evacuated to island as yet.






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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 11:01:10 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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Status: offline 		I've received some moves from Ian and he's attacking my MLR at last and so far
it's holding. I don't expect much from them.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 11:52:45 AM   
devoncop


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Progress finally being made as the HG Panzer Grenadiers are forced back on their supporting artillery by the British attacks and US recon elements reach Falcone in the North and hit the MLR front line of more dug in Panzer Grenadiers. British infantry move through the mountains to try and encircle the front lines..

In the north west more US troops from US 1st Division reach Palermo and the task of bridge and rail repair goes on.

British 1st Airborne starts arriving ready for a drop if I manage to take Messina in time before they are withdrawn again. :-)



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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 11:53:20 AM   
MikeJ19


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Status: offline 		McCall,

Thanks for looking up the info on the battle. I had thought of doing that too.

Ian, do you have to capture Messina before heading to the mainland? It would be fun/interesting to send troops to the boot, before Larry can get his forces off.

All the best,

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 1:56:50 PM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		Hi Mike

The question isn't really whether it is possible but whether it is desirable. The problem with the idea of invading elsewhere before Messina falls is that both sides continue to have reinforcements allocated to arrive in Messina throughout the scenario. Once it is lost to the Axis obviously these never show up but some are quite strong units so I don't want any more of these arriving for the Axis any longer than necessary.

Secondly the numbers of Allied units on Sicily really aren't that huge so it wouldn't really be possible to spare more than a very small Division like the Canadian 1st which wouldn't really much use landing anywhere.

I will check when my turn comes back but I am not even sure I have the sea capacity until after Messina falls but it is certainly an interesting thought.



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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 3:56:31 PM   
larryfulkerson


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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/19/2018 3:57:09 PM >

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 7:02:47 PM   
devoncop


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Palermo falls and all towns in the North and West are in allied hands.

More progress is made in the East and one Panzer Grenadier Regiment is forced back and the second encircled against the coast.

Larry continues to keep the Axis air force well out of trouble.

I notice I do have sea capacity Mike but no air transport ability for the 1st Airborne as yet.

< Message edited by devoncop -- 5/19/2018 7:09:16 PM >

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/19/2018 7:57:43 PM   
MikeJ19


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Status: offline 		Ian,

I agree, attacking with too small a force does not really help much. I also understand your point about the Axis reinforcements.

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 12:07:02 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's a view of the Messina area and as you can see I'm fighting back and
trying to reestablish the MLR on the east coast. I've got my fingers crossed
to save my Panzer Grenadier unit.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 5:36:19 AM   
devoncop


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The consequences of the aborted evacuation of the Germans from Sicily is becoming clear as the British face determined counter attacks east of Mt. Etna.

There are now large numbers of dug in Panzer Grenadiers in the Pass to the east of the mountain from both the Herman Goering and 15th Divisions and although progress is being made it is tough. A dozen or so Panzer IV's and a similar number of III's and Stugs were destroyed this turn as the British continued their push but at some loss to themselves. Another counter attack seems likely this turn as another proficiency test fail saw advancing British infantry left isolated so the unit will probably get pushed back to the rest of 51st Division.

The capture of Palermo last turn sees the arrival of the much needed 9th US Division though no port facilities at Palermo means no amphibious adventures as yet.....

The Naval support group is concentrating on supporting assaults and also degrading the still considerable Italian artillery assets and the railhead is now north of Catania as the engineers finally get their act together.

To the north west of Mt. Etna US 1st and 3rd Division are having to wait for more assets to arrive to tackle the defence line there so only artillery skirmishing is underway.



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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 5:47:15 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've moved units around and dug in everybody else and done the best I can do
for this turn I think. But this is how it looks currently. Ian has been
using his ships to his advantage and his program to push to Messina is
progressing with little I can do to prevent it. I'm going to turn the air
force on when he tries to jump to the mainland.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 5:58:19 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's what the inventory says about the aircraft currently. I see low numbers
on some of the rows and I interpret that to mean that the units are filling up
with the replacements as they are being built. Some of the rows don't have any
aircraft assigned for that model yet. Maybe a future turn. I know the Me-410
was a late model aircraft. All the aircraft are on rest status and a single-dot
and they are in a high supply area and they are refiting just about as fast as
they can so they will be better squadrons when Ian tries to make it over to the
mainland.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 6:49:29 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's what it looks like right after the playback. The Allies gained a hex
next to the coast with the support of arty and his ships. Now I need to give
some attention to the maint. of the MLR and get ready for the next big push.




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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 6:55:47 AM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		27th August 1943

Now two weeks behind schedule the resistance shows no signs of reducing. Heavy fighting again East of Etna sees Panzer Grenadier regiments from the 29th as well as the Herman Goering and 15th Divisions involved and the RTR and 50th and 51st Divisions are only managing slow progress though the Germans are being gradually reduced in strength.

In the North West the 1st US Armoured and supporting infantry and artillery start a push through the Axis lines East of Tortorici before hitting more dug in Panzer Grenadiers...!



< Message edited by devoncop -- 5/20/2018 8:27:42 AM >

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RE: Yet Another Sicily t BP Ian Allies me Axis - 5/20/2018 8:34:19 AM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		31st August 1943

Multiple problems for the Allies here.

Firstly due to a communications mix up (me messing up royally!) the British assault on the Panzer Grenadiers on the east coast which were supported by the Nebelwerfers and other heavy artillery went in before the multiple bombardments of the artillery rather than after as planned. As a result the 50th and 51st Divisions received a nasty bloody nose. Over 30% casualties to the artillery and the evaporation of the remaining nebelwerfers followed but it was little consolation.

To add insult to injury a rogue KG (Hudel) appears to have escaped the destruction in the west and has shown up on the south coast capturing isolated towns and cutting supply and generally making a nuisance of itself. It has met a sleepy engineering unit repairing rails and the Americans are none too impressed. Troops are having to be diverted to sort out the issue.

In truth it could fairly be said the conquest of Sicily is not going well.



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