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Still confused about time - 6/14/2018 9:10:07 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Hi folks, I thought I finally understood how time works in this game only to become thoroughly confused once again! I updated my hints and tips post with the text below. It is an addition to a great post I found that helped me a lot (but I unfortunately forget the name of the original poster). I just made the addition for myself so I could remember how it works.

This is what I posted:
The current game time (turn clock) = the number of median combat rounds that have taken place since the start of the turn. No unit can be behind this time. A unit can be ahead of this time if the number of MPs it has used + its own number of battle rounds > the aggregated median battle rounds figure (turn clock). A timestamp is placed in a hex that is ahead of time when compared to the turn clock. If another unit enters that hex, it will synchronize with the timestamp. The round a battle begins depends on the participating unit that has spent the greatest number of MPs and previous combat rounds before battle.

Example 1
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Unit C takes part in a combat that takes 3 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 5.
Units A and B don't fight. 3 other battles take place with other units, with durations of 5, 5 and 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - still 80% (median 5 rounds - not affected) -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 80% (3 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X

Example 2
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Units B and C take part in a combat that takes 2 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 9.
Unit A doesn�t fight. 3 other combats take place with other units, with durations 5, 5, 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - advances to 100% (2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) -> X X X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 100% (3 rounds synchronizing with unit B + 2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X X X

That was my understanding. Is it incorrect? The version I have in email is colour coded to make it easier for me - but I can't reproduce that here.
Just to make sure I was correct I thought I would try an extreme example. I used the Grenada 83 scenario for a test.

I only moved one unit. I flew the A-7 Corsair unit from base to base until it had no movement points left and then planned a direct attack.
I was surprised it could still attack after using all of its movement allowance but thought maybe it would get one round somehow (I'm still a novice).

Apparently I can only post one image so I will continue in next post.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HobbesACW -- 6/14/2018 9:25:30 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Still confused about time - 6/14/2018 9:13:01 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

The attack took place and the combat chart showed the following

This makes no sense to me at all. The text says the attack was delayed for 10 rounds and lasted 1 round yet the yellow and B suggests the attack started on turn 2 and carried on until turn 10. Only round 1 shows as blue (delay). How can it consume 11 rounds when there are only 10 rounds in a turn? With the understanding I had about timestamps I would have assumed the median (turn clock) would have progressed one turn leaving most units with 90% of the turn left and the Corsair with nothing left. As it was the turn ended. Is this a bug or do I still have no idea how time works?

Cheers,
Chris

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HobbesACW -- 6/14/2018 9:23:15 PM >

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 2

RE: Still confused about time - 6/14/2018 9:36:32 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Also just realising how confusing the different grays are (not blue) and what exactly they mean.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HobbesACW -- 6/14/2018 9:37:12 PM >

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 3

RE: Still confused about time - 6/14/2018 10:46:54 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HobbesACW

The attack took place and the combat chart showed the following

This makes no sense to me at all. The text says the attack was delayed for 10 rounds and lasted 1 round yet the yellow and B suggests the attack started on turn 2 and carried on until turn 10. Only round 1 shows as blue (delay). How can it consume 11 rounds when there are only 10 rounds in a turn? With the understanding I had about timestamps I would have assumed the median (turn clock) would have progressed one turn leaving most units with 90% of the turn left and the Corsair with nothing left. As it was the turn ended. Is this a bug or do I still have no idea how time works?

The text is basically correct. The combat was delayed 10 rounds. It probably didn't actually conduct combat, since, as you said, there aren't 11 rounds in the turn. The display isn't right, but you did something weird, and the new chart just couldn't handle it.

If this was the only combat in that phase, then the turn will end. The median would be 10. To prevent that, there would have had to have been a few combats that only lasted one round.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 4

RE: Still confused about time - 6/15/2018 8:10:27 AM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

OK thanks. So for each battle the values used to give the median are calculated by adding the round when the combat started + the number of rounds the battle lasted.

< Message edited by HobbesACW -- 6/15/2018 8:31:19 AM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 5

RE: Still confused about time - 6/15/2018 1:42:13 PM

stolypin

Posts: 217
Joined: 12/23/2012
Status: offline

For whatever reason (maybe because of playing wargames for 40+ years without this concept), my brain simply refuses to grasp the time aspect of TOAW. I've played TOAW for nearly 20 years now and have never been very good at it, presumably because I don't get the time concept. I didn't get it in the previous versions and I REALLY don't get it with TOAW IV. Maybe I never will and simply need to stick to WITE, WITW, and the Tiller titles.

But I appreciate the posts attempting to explain it.

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 6

RE: Still confused about time - 6/15/2018 2:51:41 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I played TOAW for a couple of years around 2001 but I don't remember trying too hard to understand it back then. I think I just moved units about the same amount in each phase and hoped for the best!

Cheers,
Chris

(in reply to stolypin)

Post #: 7

RE: Still confused about time - 6/15/2018 5:56:39 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

One other concern about the way the game works "The round a battle begins depends on the participating unit that has spent the greatest number of MPs and previous combat rounds before battle." As I understand it all units assigned to a particular battle have to wait until the unit with the latest timestamp can become involved before any unit begins the attack. So if you have 2 panzer divisions ready to attack they will do nothing until a possibly smaller unit is also ready to take part. You can't attack with the panzer divisions straight away and let the smaller unit reinforce the attack later on?

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 8

RE: Still confused about time - 6/15/2018 8:45:27 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

This is my new understanding of time in TOAW. If it is flawed please post and let me know.

The current game time (turn clock) = the median of all combat round lengths calculated by adding the combat start time to the combat duration. Units that move but do not engage in combat do not affect the median calculation. No unit can be behind this time. A unit can be ahead of this time if the number of MPs it has used + its own number of battle rounds > the aggregated median battle rounds figure (turn clock). A timestamp is placed in a hex that is ahead of time when compared to the turn clock. If another unit enters that hex, it will synchronize with the timestamp. The round a combat begins depends on the participating unit that has spent the greatest number of MPs and previous combat rounds before battle.

Example 1
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Unit C takes part in a combat that takes 3 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 5.
Units A and B don't fight. 3 other battles take place with other units, with durations of 5, 5 and 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - still 80% (median 5 rounds - not affected) -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 80% (3 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X

Example 2
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Units B and C take part in a combat that takes 2 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 9.
Unit A doesn�t fight. 3 other combats take place with other units, with durations 5, 5, 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - advances to 100% (2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) -> X X X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 100% (3 rounds synchronizing with unit B + 2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X X X

If unit B was the only unit to engage in combat the median would be 10 and the turn complete.

If anyone is too long in the tooth (probably quite a few of us) to remember their maths class: Put all the numbers in numerical order. If there is an odd number of results, the median is the middle number. If there is an even number of results, the median will be the mean (average) of the two central numbers.
So if there are 5 battles with (start time + duration) of 1,1,3,9,9 - 3 will be the median. If there are 4 battles with (start time + duration) of 1,1,3,9 - 2 will be the median. If there is only one battle there is only one number so that has to be the median (10 in the example with unit B above).

< Message edited by HobbesACW -- 6/15/2018 9:30:06 PM >

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 9

RE: Still confused about time - 6/16/2018 12:30:36 PM

stolypin

Posts: 217
Joined: 12/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HobbesACW

I played TOAW for a couple of years around 2001 but I don't remember trying too hard to understand it back then. I think I just moved units about the same amount in each phase and hoped for the best!

Cheers,
Chris

That's what I have done for 20 years and even though I don't fully understand what I am doing and often play poorly, I still have a lot of fun with it. The range of scenarios make the game truly unique (and very educational).

< Message edited by stolypin -- 6/16/2018 12:31:18 PM >

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 10

RE: Still confused about time - 6/16/2018 2:08:53 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HobbesACW

This is my new understanding of time in TOAW. If it is flawed please post and let me know.

The current game time (turn clock) = the median of all combat round lengths calculated by adding the combat start time to the combat duration. Units that move but do not engage in combat do not affect the median calculation. No unit can be behind this time. A unit can be ahead of this time if the number of MPs it has used + its own number of battle rounds > the aggregated median battle rounds figure (turn clock). A timestamp is placed in a hex that is ahead of time when compared to the turn clock. If another unit enters that hex, it will synchronize with the timestamp. The round a combat begins depends on the participating unit that has spent the greatest number of MPs and previous combat rounds before battle.

Example 1
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Unit C takes part in a combat that takes 3 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 5.
Units A and B don't fight. 3 other battles take place with other units, with durations of 5, 5 and 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - still 80% (median 5 rounds - not affected) -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 80% (3 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X

Example 2
Round 0 -> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - moves 20% of MPs -> X X
Unit B - moves 80% of MPs -> X X X X X X X X
Unit C - moves 50% of MPs -> X X X X X

Units B and C take part in a combat that takes 2 rounds to resolve and begins on turn 9.
Unit A doesn�t fight. 3 other combats take place with other units, with durations 5, 5, 7. The median is 5.
We advance the turn clock to the median 5.

Round 5 -> X X X X X _ _ _ _ _
Unit A - advances to 50% (median 5 rounds - can't be left in the past) -> X X X X X
Unit B - advances to 100% (2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) -> X X X X X X X X X X
Unit C - advances to 100% (3 rounds synchronizing with unit B + 2 rounds of combat. Future timestamp placed) - > X X X X X X X X X X

If unit B was the only unit to engage in combat the median would be 10 and the turn complete.

If anyone is too long in the tooth (probably quite a few of us) to remember their maths class: Put all the numbers in numerical order. If there is an odd number of results, the median is the middle number. If there is an even number of results, the median will be the mean (average) of the two central numbers.
So if there are 5 battles with (start time + duration) of 1,1,3,9,9 - 3 will be the median. If there are 4 battles with (start time + duration) of 1,1,3,9 - 2 will be the median. If there is only one battle there is only one number so that has to be the median (10 in the example with unit B above).

Be aware that bombardments don't count for median purposes UNLESS all combats were bombardments.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to HobbesACW)

Post #: 11

RE: Still confused about time - 6/16/2018 3:39:52 PM

HobbesACW

Posts: 419
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stolypin

quote:

ORIGINAL: HobbesACW

I played TOAW for a couple of years around 2001 but I don't remember trying too hard to understand it back then. I think I just moved units about the same amount in each phase and hoped for the best!

Cheers,
Chris

That's what I have done for 20 years and even though I don't fully understand what I am doing and often play poorly, I still have a lot of fun with it. The range of scenarios make the game truly unique (and very educational).

You sound like my ideal PBEM opponent :) I also love the variety of scenarios and the chance to read about the more obscure conflicts.

(in reply to stolypin)

Post #: 12

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Still confused about time