Are there planned updates to the editors?

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Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 2:50:33 AM

Szilard
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I vaguely remember seeing something to that effect.

I'm trying to revive an old ACOW-vintage scenario. In the translation over to TOAW IV half of the many (100++) "Formation Orders", "Disband Unit", "Withdraw Army" etc events have lost their army/formation/unit references.

The export-to-.gam file function still seems to be bugged wrt to these kinds of events.

So it's back to using the yowlingly crappy event editor to salvage things. Do I do this, or wait for something improved to come along?

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 11:10:23 AM

76mm
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard
I vaguely remember seeing something to that effect.

Yes, IIRC the manual even mentions something about a future update combining the force and deployment editors, I think there was also mention of that in a couple of threads here.

For fixing events, you might want to work directly on the xml file via Notepad++ rather than relying on the editor, personally I think events are easier to read/edit in xml.

(in reply to Szilard)

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 11:14:10 AM

Szilard
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard
I vaguely remember seeing something to that effect.

Yes, IIRC the manual even mentions something about a future update combining the force and deployment editors, I think there was also mention of that in a couple of threads here.

For fixing events, you might want to work directly on the xml file via Notepad++ rather than relying on the editor, personally I think events are easier to read/edit in xml.

Thanks, but dumb question: how do I get a good XML file? The "Save Game (XML)" option from the menu seems to have bugs - events referring to a unit or formation don't seem to get exported properly ...

(in reply to 76mm)

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 11:32:27 AM

sPzAbt653
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Have you tried any of the F-Keys in 6.1.3 and 6.1.4 ?
I'd like to know what scenario you are working on so that I might try the same to see what the issue is.

(in reply to Szilard)

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 11:49:09 AM

sPzAbt653
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quote:

the yowlingly crappy event editor

Some changes were made for IV, if you hadn't noticed. Some good, some not. Detailing specific issues would be a help, rather than such a blanket statement. Keep in mind two things, the Event Editor is not going to be completely redone so don't expect that, and Ralph is very open to putting in the efforts to make things better [within the existing framework, if that is the proper way to put it].
I guess its worth mentioning again that its not like Ralph is sitting around waiting for something to do. To exaggerate the point a little, there's like 50 years worth of coding to be done, so priorities have to be set and reset constantly.
Also worth mentioning, if you are having that much trouble with Scenario Editing in IV, you might try going back to III and when complete you can import your scenario to IV.

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 12:18:35 PM

Szilard
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Have you tried any of the F-Keys in 6.1.3 and 6.1.4 ?
I'd like to know what scenario you are working on so that I might try the same to see what the issue is.

Thanks for that.

Actually, I think I've managed to un-confuse myself for the moment.

- Unit references in events for Force 2 units add 2000 to the unit ID.

- In Formation Orders events, the X and Y slots encode for orders and loss tolerance.

Are these kinds of thing documented anywhere? Anyway, enough to plod on with for now.

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 12:34:15 PM

Szilard
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Lol! The event editor has been yowlingly crappy since v1.0. Ralph made it approx 1 trillion times better by fixing incredibly bad things like the way deleting units or even resorting events broke unit references. But it's still crap.

What I'd like to see is some kind of real scripting engine like eg Victor's from the Advanced Tactics series; maybe simpler. This is my number 1 wish for TOAW. I doubt that's true for anybody else & I doubt it will happen, but as a customer I feel entitled to whine on about it anyway.

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 1:46:26 PM

larryfulkerson
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard

Lol! The event editor has been yowlingly crappy since v1.0. Ralph made it approx 1 trillion times better by fixing incredibly bad things like the way deleting units or even resorting events broke unit references. But it's still crap.

What I'd like to see is some kind of real scripting engine like eg Victor's from the Advanced Tactics series; maybe simpler. This is my number 1 wish for TOAW. I doubt that's true for anybody else & I doubt it will happen, but as a customer I feel entitled to whine on about it anyway.

To improve the editor any more than it's already been improved would almost require a code re-write and I doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.

(in reply to Szilard)

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 1:51:40 PM

Szilard
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
To improve the editor any more than it's already been improved would almost require a code re-write and I doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.

I think you're right on both counts, unfortunately.

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 3:55:18 PM

sPzAbt653
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quote:

even resorting events broke unit references

We shouldn't be resorting events. Often events are arranged by the designer in specific sequences in order to fire in specific sequences. Those three buttons in the Event Editor used to sort should be removed, because anybody who knows what they are doing never uses them.

quote:

What I'd like to see is some kind of real scripting engine like eg Victor's from the Advanced Tactics series

I am not familiar with that system, so I will assume it is similar to scripting as it is done in Strategic Command [which I have experience with]. Comparing SC to TOAW, I see no difference in ease of use, I do see a difference in flexibility based on choices. The two games have different choices available, and that has nothing to do with either system being better. In reality, TOAW very much has a scripted event system, but it is represented by a graphic interface. [The developers of SC admit they would very much like to have a similar system, but that it would take a lot of time to put together].
From my experience, TOAW's Event Engine is much easier to work with than a scripted type for a few reasons. I can take any scenario from TOAW and run a Scenario Dump and extract all the events into a separate file and immediately begin debugging. With the scripts from SC this is impossible, as there are thousands of scripts arranged into about 20 different categories and beyond that no organization at all. Any debugging in SC requires you to handmake a master file by going thru each of the thousands of scripts one by one. That makes TOAW far superior.

(in reply to Szilard)

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RE: Are there planned updates to the editors? - 6/19/2018 4:05:51 PM

sPzAbt653
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quote:

I doubt that's true for anybody else & I doubt it will happen, but as a customer I feel entitled to whine on about it anyway.

It's not really a whine, keep in mind it is a contribution, as Ralph is not a closed loop in the development process. He very much listens to what we say, and has the very difficult job of determining what are viable complaints, and what are reasonable expectations given limits to coding time and UI changes. Which is why I suggested earlier to make more specific points as opposed to blanket statements.

quote:

To improve the editor any more than it's already been improved would almost require a code re-write and I doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.

I would disagree with this opinion as Ralph has proved otherwise and has confirmed his desire to continue improvement, especially in the beta forum. However, like I said, any changes will be made within the current framework.
Also in defense of TOAW, I'll add that there are thousands of scenarios designed with this system by hundreds of designers over a period of 20 years. If the Editor was crap, how could this be possible ? By comparison, SC has been around for twelve years [since SC1?] and has less than 15 scenarios. The editor is difficult to work with, especially the map making process. How many scenarios does Advanced Tactics have and how long has it been around ? I have no idea, I'm asking.

(in reply to Szilard)

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