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Playing Around in Vietnam - 5/30/2018 1:18:35 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Lately, I've been reading Clashes: Air Combat Over North Vietnam 1965-1972. The book is a great source of scenario ideas for any Command player. It really details the F-4 and F-105 versus MiG-17/19/21s battles. One of the better maps in the book shows the locations of the tanker tracks F-4s and F-105s based in Thailand used to reach targets near Hanoi.

I built a quick scenario with F-4s and F-105s striking the Kep Airbase and discovered something. Command won't let me push strike aircraft to targets that far north from ARCP White! After I refuel it tells me they're not in range. Interestingly, I looked it up, and Kep Airbase was only ever struck by the Navy or B-52s in the Linebacker campaign. I guess maybe now I have a reason why!
Post #: 1
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 5/30/2018 2:49:09 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Route 6A and 6B were split up between the USAF and USN. Truth is that line was often crossed. The issue you probably have is that USAF strike a/c often tanked on their way to and from their targets. You may need to play with the range doctrines to get this to work.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 2
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 5/30/2018 2:56:14 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Do you think picking a different ARCP might help too? I sort of wondered whether the northern most ARCPs were best for servicing targets further north even though they were a less direct route.

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 3
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/1/2018 5:42:41 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I managed to get it to go by checking the "Launch mission without tankers in place" box. I guess with that box checked it doesn't expect me to manually manage where their hook up points are (e.g. place the push point near the ARCP, gas up the whole package manually, and then strike a target in range from the push point, not necessarily the base). It's good to have that option, though. I haven't needed to do that before.

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 4
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/2/2018 3:32:11 AM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

I managed to get it to go by checking the "Launch mission without tankers in place" box. I guess with that box checked it doesn't expect me to manually manage where their hook up points are (e.g. place the push point near the ARCP, gas up the whole package manually, and then strike a target in range from the push point, not necessarily the base). It's good to have that option, though. I haven't needed to do that before.

I've noticed that the Refueling AI tends to be very conservative (rightfully so). When you're dealing with edge cases that should work, using that checkbox to force the mission to launch is usually the only option.

If you like Clashes, it's also worth reading Michel's doctorate thesis The Revolt of the Majors.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 5
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/2/2018 1:57:34 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

I've noticed that the Refueling AI tends to be very conservative (rightfully so). When you're dealing with edge cases that should work, using that checkbox to force the mission to launch is usually the only option.


That's the thing, I unchecked it, and everything still got home alright with one exception: one of them got bounced by a MiG and when it did, it kicked into afterburner and didn't have quite enough gas to go home. Result: He crashed somewhere over Laos before making it to the boom. That's completely believable. I've heard stories of that kind of thing happening during the Vietnam war. It's neat to see Command showing how that kind of non-combat fatality could easily occur, given the ranges at which they were operating historically.

(in reply to ExNusquam)
Post #: 6
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/3/2018 2:03:42 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I'm still having trouble with the Iron Hand (SEAD) patrols running off to gas up about half way through the strike. They never make it as far as Hanoi. Still figuring that out.

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 6/4/2018 2:45:04 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/4/2018 8:19:24 PM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline 		Assuming you're using F-105Fs, what loadout are you using?

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 8
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/10/2018 9:05:28 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		2x AGM-45B Shrike
1x AGM-78D Standard
1x 450 USG Drop Tank
1x 650 USG Drop Tank

(in reply to ExNusquam)
Post #: 9
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/11/2018 11:15:52 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline 		quite surprisingly, there aren't that many scenarios about vietnam (at least in the communityscen pack) which ones are your guys' favorites?

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 10
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/12/2018 3:15:42 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Yeah... I noticed that too. They could do a whole scenario pack on just the Vietnam War, like the Arab-Israeli Wars scenario.

(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 11
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/12/2018 11:52:26 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline 		wtb linebacker / rolling thunder / both dlc

thx

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 12
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/13/2018 1:43:55 AM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I don't know if I'd sell a Rolling Thunder or Linebacker campaign into one or two sets. So many things were struck multiple times during the war. One of the things which could make Rolling Thunder scenarios difficult was that they were much more restricted than the post-Johnson strikes. Linebacker was much bigger strikes, lots of B-52s. Rolling Thunder was more tactical and limited. I guess it might be two sets worth of material.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

wtb linebacker / rolling thunder / both dlc

thx



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 6/13/2018 12:11:05 PM >

(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 13
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/13/2018 3:05:49 PM   
SirAndrew

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 11/27/2017
Status: offline 		Hi!
I've noticed the lack of Vietnam-era scenarios, but the amazing Yankee Team is a must-play and I like the Gulf of Tonkin, the Battle of Dong-Hoi and Operation Market Time scenarios too.
It's not strictly a Vietnam-era scenario, but if you don't mind a little dogfighting, I've recently made a History of Air-to-Air Combat tutorial, detailing the various historical battles and adding a lot of info about tactics and weapons!

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 14
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/13/2018 8:19:54 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		I just read recently that the North Vietnamese Air Force attacked a couple of U.S. destroyers with MiG-17s.
I thought the vast majority of their air activity was defensive in nature... apparently not so.

I am working on a couple of scenarios... one at Khe Sahn (had a couple of set backs with -saves- at the wrong time), and a fictitious one where China gets involved.

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to SirAndrew)
Post #: 15
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/14/2018 1:28:03 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Most, but not all... I read something about American DDGs engaging Vietnamese fighters with Terrier or Tartar missiles somewhere?

Unlike in the Korean War where there were a lot of highly trained Soviet pilots, all evidence suggests that in Vietnam the MiG pilots were mostly Vietnamese. The result was that in the beginning, they weren't as highly trained as they were towards the end of the war. In fact, many of the MiGs encountered during the Rolling Thunder campaign were later believed to be student pilots on training missions who had been accidentally run into by strike missions.

For the multinational/colonial wars sorts, there could even be a Battle of Dien Bien Phu scenario where American CIA pilots in B-26s were providing CAS to French forces fighting the Viet Minh. You could even do a "What if?" scenario because apparently the use of nuclear weapons to support the French was discussed extensively, both by Admiral Radford (Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time) and by John Foster Dulles (who I believe was still head of the CIA at the time).


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

I just read recently that the North Vietnamese Air Force attacked a couple of U.S. destroyers with MiG-17s.
I thought the vast majority of their air activity was defensive in nature... apparently not so.

I am working on a couple of scenarios... one at Khe Sahn (had a couple of set backs with -saves- at the wrong time), and a fictitious one where China gets involved.



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 6/14/2018 1:34:29 PM >

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 16
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 6/23/2018 2:56:55 AM   
cns180784

 

Posts: 447
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAndrew

Hi!
I've noticed the lack of Vietnam-era scenarios, but the amazing Yankee Team is a must-play and I like the Gulf of Tonkin, the Battle of Dong-Hoi and Operation Market Time scenarios too.
It's not strictly a Vietnam-era scenario, but if you don't mind a little dogfighting, I've recently made a History of Air-to-Air Combat tutorial, detailing the various historical battles and adding a lot of info about tactics and weapons!

Hi SirAndrew i just happened to notice you missed out one other Vietnam scenario called Down Town which is one of the standalone scenarios...you probably just forgot to mention but maybe you have yet to notice it. I enjoyed it, you launch an Alpha strike on some targets in North Vietnam. Its a good scenario to get the juices flowing before attempting Yankee Team which i still havent started on yet.

(in reply to SirAndrew)
Post #: 17
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/10/2018 2:26:19 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Hi guys, I like playing scenarios in the Vietnam era, was there a scenario that covered a 1972/73 Lnebacker strike?

Or am I remembering wrongly?

Cheers

(in reply to cns180784)
Post #: 18
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/19/2018 4:13:49 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012
Hi guys, I like playing scenarios in the Vietnam era, was there a scenario that covered a 1972/73 Lnebacker strike?
Or am I remembering wrongly?
Cheers


Seemed to me that it was in the Community scenarios and not the main list.


_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 19
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/19/2018 4:19:23 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		By the way:
http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html
GREAT maps of Vietnam/Laos.

And I found a couple a PDF with most of the major targets and Vietnam firebases.
Enjoy!


Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 20
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/19/2018 11:50:57 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		It'd be interesting to find maps of ground operations with phase lines and what not.

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 21
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/20/2018 3:24:31 AM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
It'd be interesting to find maps of ground operations with phase lines and what not.

There is not much in the way of good maps AT ALL.
There are not good maps of bridges or even targets on the Ho Chi Min Trail.
You can get some topographical maps on the area around Khe Sanh and Hue... but not much in the way of where suspected 130mm positions were etc.
You can also get some good maps on North Vietnamese Air Bases... but good maps are difficult to find.

Or at least, I have not been able to find them.


_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 22
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 7/20/2018 5:28:15 PM   
stilesw


Posts: 1497
Joined: 6/26/2014
From: Hansville, WA, USA
Status: offline 		tjhkkr,

Thanks for these references. Now included in the unofficial CMANO Dropbox reference library.

-Wayne

Forum members who want access to this Dropbox library can PM me with your email address.

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 23
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 3/2/2019 1:53:22 PM   
temkc5

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 10/11/2015
Status: offline 		This seemed to be the best place for this

US & Australian facilities during the Vietnam War google earth file

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Non mihi, Non tibi, Sed nobis


(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 24
RE: Playing Around in Vietnam - 3/2/2019 7:33:58 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I suspect so much of this stuff was classified and/or shredded. Getting it probably would require a lot of FOIA requests. The good news is that at this point, the declassify-on dates for most of this stuff have probably lapsed so that if you did FOIA it, you could probably get the majority of it. The National Air and Space Museum has a really great map of the DCA plan for the aircraft carriers during the Gulf of Sidra crisis with Libya. I'm sure there's other stuff out there if you know where to look.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr
There is not much in the way of good maps AT ALL.
There are not good maps of bridges or even targets on the Ho Chi Min Trail.
You can get some topographical maps on the area around Khe Sanh and Hue... but not much in the way of where suspected 130mm positions were etc.
You can also get some good maps on North Vietnamese Air Bases... but good maps are difficult to find.

Or at least, I have not been able to find them.



(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 25
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