WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever?

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WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/28/2016 9:56:22 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Ronnie: I have never seen it even against an incompetent player. The only Sea Lion I've seen pulled off in a strategic game was in the old A3R (now AWAW).

I pulled it off once in a game, though not in MWiF but in CEaW-GS, against a very good human opponent, but it was totally unintentional. To see what I mean, check out: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=469347#p469347

I do not want to highjack the thread about the German navy so I am creating a new one. I am a player of CEAW grand strategy and enjoying it a lot. There is perhaps not so much detail compare to MWIF and the theater is limited to Europe but I found it is capturing quite well historical outcome. Battle of Atlantic is well done and the game is entertaining.

But, it is true I keep coming here to read about MWIF. It seems to have so much detail. Does it simulate well the struggle between US Navy and IJN in the Pacific i.e. carrier battle? Does it simulate well War in the East? Does it simulate well strategic bombing campaign?

What does MWIF have that others WWII strategic games does not have?

I did not buy it last winter, been quite away of gaming, and still lacking of time.
How would you convince me to jump into it?

Thank you

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/28/2016 10:13:13 PM

AlbertN

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The game, with the appropriate optional rules (some of them not coded yet) simulate well enough -for its scale- what you mentioned above.

A gamer has always to weight the degree of level they do want in a game; some games are dedicated to a Theather of Operations (ETO, PTO usually for WW2 ones), some to tactical battles themselves (Kursk, Stalingrad, D-Day) or campaigns (Fall Blu, Barbarossa, etc).
Each kind of game has its own layer of levels and depths in the aspect they cover in the specifics.

In MWiF for example you'll find that land attacks are involving just 1 roll, with modifiers which are flat and computable except aerial intervention pratically (or HQ support if you play with the D10 option).
In a game such as War in the East (not that you see all the rolls) there are tons of sub rolls for leaders, chain of command, reserves intervening and so forth (nothing a human would manage anyhow routine wise - but that is a computer game, designed specifically for computers).
Other tabletop games can have some leadership and morale rolls (For ex. the C3I checks for Von Manstein Backhand Blow, that is a tabletop game, which is just a portion of what WITE does computer wise).

But MWiF lacks AI (which many would mind), is missing some relevant (in my eyes) optional rules; and mostly it's locked on the last edition of rules - which is known to be in the reworks to add balance to the game.

My suggestion if to buy it or not?
Buy it if you have someone to play it with. Otherwise don't.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/28/2016 10:40:39 PM

Klydon

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I think WIF/MWIF is the best WWII grand strategic level game there is and it has been king for a long, long time.

Most of the things that happen in the real war on a big battle standpoint of view are repeatable in the game. (Naval search and surprise rules allow the recreation of the results of the Battle of Midway for example). The game manages to have these things available while at the same time allowing a loose enough framework for players to take different strategies. Don't want to invade Russia in 1941 as the Germans? No problem. You can make the Med more of a priority than the Axis did historically.

Want to launch a heavy strategic bombing campaign against Germany? It is possible, but be ready to pay a heavy price in bombers going down in flames at first, but only if the Germans take the appropriate countermeasures. In the mean time, you have partially accomplished your goal perhaps as the Axis must divert more resources to fighter defense.

The battle of the Atlantic is a tougher discussion with the game right now. The Germans would be hard pressed to replicate their historical achievements (and short comings) in the battle of the Atlantic. They can put the hurt on the CW for sure, but it comes up short in most cases to what actually was achieved.

This also highlights another issue to a point. In WIF/MWIF, the Italians would be a "bad" player on top of being a weak position. The Italians more than anyone else, are the most likely to do much better in game than they did historically if they simply avoid many of the errors they made historically. The Japanese player could be considered in game terms to be very unlucky at Midway.

The originator of the game (Australian Design Group) really did a tremendous job covering most of the angles. Most strategic games struggle with one or more aspects of the game (be it Air, Land, or Naval). WIF/MWIF does a good job with all three for the most part. The economics are solid, especially playing with the oil rules. I consider ADG to have produced the finest WW2 strategic board game and the best Napoleonic era strategic game as well in Empire in Arms. Although Fatal Alliances was not produced directly by ADG, (done with their permission), it was clearly inspired by WIF and is the best WW1 grand strategic game of its type. (Not much competition there).

Finally, with the inclusion of the named HQ units, the game gives a feel for having the big leaders of the war actively playing a role in the game.

(in reply to AlbertN)

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 2:12:18 AM

rkr1958

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
I did not buy it last winter, been quite away of gaming, and still lacking of time.
How would you convince me to jump into it?

First off, I wouldn't let anyone "convince" you to buy or not. I believe that has to be your decision given the $99.99 price tag and no AI for the foreseeable future, or ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen
My suggestion if to buy it or not?
Buy it if you have someone to play it with. Otherwise don't.

Well, in my opinion, that's true if you're only happy playing against other players. I enjoy the military history of WW2 so much that I can't get enough of playing MWiF, even though I have to play solo. I'm not sure how many hours I've put in playing or doing an AAR on this game, but I'd estimate, on average, 10 hours/week for the last two years. That's 1040 hours for a cost of $99.99, which is less than 10 cents an hour.

I feel that MWiF is the most accurate "historical simulation" of WW2 at the strategic level ever made. It's from the "historical simulation" perspective how I approach, play and evaluate this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e I am a player of CEAW grand strategy and enjoying it a lot. There is perhaps not so much detail compare to MWIF and the theater is limited to Europe but I found it is capturing quite well historical outcome. Battle of Atlantic is well done and the game is entertaining.

I too am a long player of CEaW-GS and I too agree that it captures the war in Europe and North Africa exceptionally well. I love the game and feel that it too is an accurate "historical simulation" of WW2 at the corps level. Maybe not as good as MWiF is, but darn good in it's own right. I also agree that the Battle of the Atlantic plays out well. But, while the CEaW-GS naval system gives reasonable results, the play mechanics of it are artificial.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

But, it is true I keep coming here to read about MWIF. It seems to have so much detail. Does it simulate well the struggle between US Navy and IJN in the Pacific i.e. carrier battle?

Yes! I feel this is one of the strengths of MWiF. I love the Global War Scenario because it does simulate the entire war. I've love playing with pilots and carrier planes. I love the thrill of the search rolls when USN and IJN naval forces are trying to find each other. And then, when one sides carrier planes finds the other side carriers and strikes a decisive blow. I also love the submarine warfare. When German u-boats or Italian submarines slip through allied escorts and really wreck havoc on allied convoy route. Then having to figure out how to salvage what routes you can with convoy points (CPs) you have in reserve, reroute what resources you can and salvage what production you can. I love everything about the naval, and production, system in MWiF. Every individual aircraft carrier, battleship and heavy cruiser that served in WW2 is represent by name and individual counter in the game. In fact, because players have the option to build navies beyond their historical bounds, there are counters for aircraft carriers, battleships and cruisers that weren't built but could have been. If you play with the optional rule light cruiser, then you get counters for all the individual light cruisers in WW2. And like any true WW2 game, naval power needs to be supported by air power to be effective. If you don't have airpower supporting your ships in a sea area that the enemy does, even if you greatly outnumber him in ships, you will soon be run out of the area or sunk. Your choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Does it simulate well War in the East?

Yes. As the Soviet player, do you stuff the border in the hopes of keeping the garrison ratio between you and the Germans high enough to delay Barbarossa until 1942? If you miscalculate then most of your army is caught near the border and shredded by the Germans during the initial turn of Barbarossa. You see the value of winterize troops, which the Soviets have the most of attacking during snow or blizzards. If the Soviets can hold, in late 1942 or 1943 and on, you'll see the Soviets attack at moderate to low odds taking losses but wearing out the German army.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Does it simulate well strategic bombing campaign?

Absolutely. You can choose to hit production or oil. Strategic bombing can be a devastating tool for the allies against the Germans, Japanese and Italians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
What does MWIF have that others WWII strategic games does not have?

A complicated, sometimes frustration, but very realistic production model. As the Japanese, you have more factories than resources. You're always on the look for more resources to feed your factories. Then because of rising tensions the USA passes an embargo on strategic materials, reducing the flow of resources to your factories. But worse, is when the USA is able to pass the oil embargo. Since you have no organic supply of oil, after the USA oil embargo, all you have are the oil stockpiles that you have on hand, which might last at best 2 to 3 turns. So, the oil in the Dutch East Indies looks very inviting as does non-oil resources in that area.

I like the production model in MWiF almost as much as I like the naval model. Though routing resources points is sometimes a frustrating exercise as the game sometimes has it's own mind on how to do that.

Now back to whether or not to buy. Again, that's your decision but if you do be prepared to invest 40 to 80 hours reading through and watching the tutorials required to learn the mechanics and rules of this game. I had NO prior experience with WiF, which is the cardboard and paper version of this game. I had no expectation on the "rules" of MWiF track with the rules of WiF. So, my evaluation of MWiF is strictly for someone who had no expectation of how it played compared to WiF. But as a strategic simulation of WW2, there's none better period! But, you have to be willing to invest time to learn how to play it and MWiF does have a steep learning curve.

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 2/29/2016 2:20:05 AM >

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 5:16:11 PM

Jagdtiger14

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WiF the board game is very popular around the world with conventions in Michigan (main one), Euro WiFcon in Germany, Australia has a con, and I think there is a second one in the US.

Some years ago, someone with the blessing of Steve wanted to create a MWiF fan site where there would be ladder tournaments, etc...what ever happened to that? I would love to see some sort of competitive organized events for MWiF.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 7:23:08 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

WiF the board game is very popular around the world with conventions in Michigan (main one), Euro WiFcon in Germany, Australia has a con, and I think there is a second one in the US.

Some years ago, someone with the blessing of Steve wanted to create a MWiF fan site where there would be ladder tournaments, etc...what ever happened to that? I would love to see some sort of competitive organized events for MWiF.

That last question is easily answered. The guy who wanted to build this, got a new job as a website developer and his new employer didn't allow him to build that fan site...

But to come back on why WiF is the best strategic war game ever made: it's the combination of the turn/impulse system with the weather and the action choices (with the limits included). That makes it difficult for a player to estimate how long the turn will go on and what he will be able to do in that turn.

That combined makes sure that one has to acknowledge the fact that every decision a player makes, has a price...

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 7:34:06 PM

Mayhemizer_slith

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quote:

But to come back on why WiF is the best strategic war game ever made: it's the combination of the turn/impulse system with the weather and the action choices (with the limits included). That makes it difficult for a player to estimate how long the turn will go on and what he will be able to do in that turn.

That combined makes sure that one has to acknowledge the fact that every decision a player makes, has a price...

As a German player I want to take combined/naval action once a turn (every 2 months) to send subs hunting convoys. But then eastern front forces me to choose land action after another to destroy USSR units and take land. Soon 6 months passes and submarines have not moved. But land troops in USSR had advanced a lot.

That truly is the hardest thing for me in this game, choose some other action than land with Germany.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 8:02:51 PM

paulderynck

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In a nutshell the reason WiF is IMO the best wargame I have ever played is that it constantly forces you to evaluate and make difficult decisions, while in the background maintaining a lot of excitement and tension in terms of how everything will all turn out.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 9:33:19 PM

Jagdtiger14

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quote:

Some years ago, someone with the blessing of Steve wanted to create a MWiF fan site where there would be ladder tournaments, etc...what ever happened to that? I would love to see some sort of competitive organized events for MWiF. That last question is easily answered. The guy who wanted to build this, got a new job as a website developer and his new employer didn't allow him to build that fan site...

I'm not sure what all the content was going to be for that site, but having a web site devoted to MWiF ladder tournaments, etc... cant be that difficult?

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 10:19:55 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
What does MWIF have that others WWII strategic games does not have?

It's also worth asking what other WWII grand strategy games have that MWiF does not.

For one, there is no Diplomacy per se, but this is integrated more or less with the various entry chits.

For another, there is no Research, but better units do become available over time and players are expected to scrap older obsolete units. This more or less addresses the research advances during WWII, but the inability to select specific units for construction is annoying.

I'm not judging here, just commenting. Some players like these other features; some don't.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 2/29/2016 10:37:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In a nutshell the reason WiF is IMO the best wargame I have ever played is that it constantly forces you to evaluate and make difficult decisions, while in the background maintaining a lot of excitement and tension in terms of how everything will all turn out.

Agreed paul, at least from a board game perspective, meaning we have not really enjoyed all the possiblities that this game could deliver computer wise and I believe if Steve could fix the many many problems we have with the computer game it will be the finest war game ever made board or computer.

Bo

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/1/2016 12:17:20 AM

paulderynck

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Well, bo, taste buds can vary, but I'm currently getting as much and more out of playing MWiF multi-player on Teamviewer as I do out of playing the boardgame. Missing are a few choice optional rules which are unlikely to be universally agreed as to their priority for addition, but this is more than compensated by the many useful ways the computer already assists us, like:
- rules enforcement (even veteran players make goofs, and their goofs are more likely to be missed)
- saved set-ups
- regimented sequence of play
- all the recognized features of why the computer has advantages (room, pets, etc.) not to mention if you get to a place where some major strategic choice is exercised, it's super easy to play another "what-if" game from that point - ever tried that with a boardgame?
- the aids for producing and viewing the reinforcements on the way, and with current gearing tracked and enforced

And the same scale map for Asia-Pacific is making for many interesting nuances for which we've only just started scratching the surface.

I look forward to soon doing the same with two-player NetPlay.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/1/2016 12:32:12 AM

AlbertN

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quote:

And the same scale map for Asia-Pacific is making for many interesting nuances for which we've only just started scratching the surface.

That is something that indeed bugs me for. The force pools and such are clearly not shaped for that sizeable map.
Hence the Soviet house rule forbiding them to attack Japan.

But I agree the computer version saves heaps of time compared to what the regular wargame (or on vassal) would do.
I'd not be able to play via Vassal as quickly as the game here proceeds usually.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/1/2016 8:35:53 AM

Jagdtiger14

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pzgndr:

quote:

It's also worth asking what other WWII grand strategy games have that MWiF does not. For one, there is no Diplomacy per se, but this is integrated more or less with the various entry chits. For another, there is no Research, but better units do become available over time and players are expected to scrap older obsolete units. This more or less addresses the research advances during WWII, but the inability to select specific units for construction is annoying. I'm not judging here, just commenting. Some players like these other features; some don't.

Days of Decision III (DoD III)...pre-war WiF...has a very elegant diplomatic system.

There is no research, but there is advance building. A3R had a very interesting research system.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/1/2016 10:08:26 PM

ncc1701e

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Thanks all for your answers. Playing World at War a World Divided, then CEAW Grand Strategy, I am sometimes finding they are lacking of details, details that I am seen in the AARs for this game like all the ships names, some much choice of planes, etc�

Lots of WWII strategy games has forgotten the importance of sea always doing too much abstraction especially if limited to European theater. This seems not to be the case in this game.

Whether I am convinced or not, in fact, I am convinced. My main problem is the time investment for gaming that has dramatically been reduced few months ago. And, I keep asking myself whether or not the AI will be done one day.

I do not have time for multiplayer and I have never been good at playing solitaire - I know already what the other side has in mind�

Thus, I am tempted yes but I fear that the game will stay untouched like the other boardgames I did not open since a while.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/1/2016 11:06:50 PM

AllenK

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You could try playing by e-mail as Orm and Warspite1 or Mayhemizer and myself have done. It's surprisingly workable. The advantage is you can play at whatever pace suits you and your opponent as you don't have to always be on-line together. It does help the pace if you can be but not essential.

You just need an online random die roller that sends the results to both players (or simply trust your opponent). We only swap the game file between us at the end of each impulse. The end of turn admin seems best handled by the Allied player with instruction from the Axis player (but could also be managed by file swapping). Within impulse, the phasing player runs the show and we use the AAR to communicate decisions. You could equally do this by e-mail but why not contribute to the forum at the same time as this way, the AAR pretty much writes itself.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/2/2016 3:40:12 AM

juntoalmar

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Hi AllenK,

I am very interested in knowing more about your experience playing PBEM. At the moment I'm playing a Barbarossa PBEM and it's pretty playable. But I'm afraid that in a Guadalcanal or Global War the amount of interaction from the non-phasing player (mostly on naval combat) will prevent playing PBEM. How do you work with it? There is not always the chance to save the game in all subphases.

Btw, any online dice roller to recommend?

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/2/2016 7:37:11 AM

Mayhemizer_slith

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JT14 recommended http://www.pbegames.com/roller/ and it is very easy and good to use. Just choose "show results" both on display and email, that way you don't have to wait sometimes up to two minutes for roll result.

I'm playing with AllenK and we send save files only between impulses and at turn end. When we need to ask something from non-phasing player we ask it in AAR. That way AAR writes itself. Other option is to use Skype or some other chat, it would be faster but (naval combats can take quite a long time) there is no AAR to read for other users.

What I do when I have 10-15 areas available for naval combat and AllenK is not online, is rolling search result for several sea areas and post them all to AAR. When I get answers I reload the game and play them all.

Attachment (1)

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/2/2016 10:58:19 AM

juntoalmar

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Thanks! I will give it a try to the dice generator.

Regarding naval combat, I still don't see it clear, though. Questions like "continue air or naval battle", "what ship to destroy", etc... seems to me that needs the interaction of the other player, and can't save the game every time.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/2/2016 11:26:18 AM

Mayhemizer_slith

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Save after each round or combat. When you need to ask, take a picture and wait for answer. You can always continue from latest save if you close MWiF before getting answer.

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Post #: 20

RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/2/2016 1:34:27 PM

AllenK

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Sometimes you can speed things up by making the decision on your opponents behalf when it's obvious what should be chosen. If you choose what you would have done you'll most often get it right. By frequently saving and having a record of the die rolls you can always go back anyway. If in doubt, ask.

Even so, naval combat rounds can take quite some time to work through but this would still be the case on Netplay or Skype/TeamViewer. The questions have to be asked and answered. We usually manage to be available online for at least a couple of hours most evenings to respond straight away, so it's only a slightly extra delay then. The great thing though is that you don't have to be which gives flexibility at the cost of speed and you can be getting on with other things as well.

If you are looking for a fast paced game with a rapid turnaround of impulses and turns this isn't for you. If you don't want to be stuck playing solitaire, want to play against an opponent but would struggle with the Skype/TeamViewer/Netplay options then give it a go. Warning though. It can get pretty addictive.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/3/2016 1:13:36 AM

juntoalmar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

If you are looking for a fast paced game with a rapid turnaround of impulses and turns this isn't for you.

Oh, no. Just the opposite. I love PBEM, spend 20min rereading the rules, considering options... I just though I would find phases where I couldn't save the game, and it would be a PBEM game stopper.

I wish the mini AI for PBEM that I suggested in this thread could be done: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4003499

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/11/2016 1:46:20 AM

AbwehrX

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World in Flames Final Edition Global Campaign 39-45 with most addons & almost all the options is easily the most invigorating WWII strategic campaign Ive ever played. Integration of the naval, ground and air war game mechanics is superb. So many great campaigns but so little time!! Aargh!

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 3/11/2016 3:02:58 AM

rkr1958

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

World in Flames Final Edition Global Campaign 39-45 with most addons & almost all the options is easily the most invigorating WWII strategic campaign Ive ever played. Integration of the naval, ground and air war game mechanics is superb. So many great campaigns but so little time!! Aargh!

You have plenty of time. You're probably wasting 8 hours sleeping a night when you could be playing MWiF.

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 6/23/2018 3:45:33 PM

IrishGuards

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Faugh a Ballagh .. !!
IDG

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RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 6/30/2018 8:12:53 AM

captskillet

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From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
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May I respectfully add War in the Pacific Admirals edition to the best strategic game list..............covers everything from India up thru Asiatic Russia over to Alaska/West Coast of US............more detail as every ship, plane or land unit is there and you can start from Pre Pearl Harbor if the Japanese Player wants to try a dif. strategy...........it has an pretty decent AI in place and PBEM is another alternative. You can control what your factories are churning out. yall check it out if you wan t a GREAT fully functioning game that you can play in this lifetime instead of waiting for years on a unfinished product.

Art

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"Git thar fust with the most men" - Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 26

RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 6/30/2018 9:06:49 AM

AFBTD

Posts: 93
Joined: 5/21/2018
Status: offline

bah� where is chile ..eh

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mis amigos; EL FRENTE ATLETICO, LA PANDA DEL MOCO, OCHAITA FANS

(in reply to captskillet)

Post #: 27

RE: WIF/MWIF: Best WWII strategic game ever? - 6/30/2018 1:43:29 PM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet
yall check it out if you wan t a GREAT fully functioning game that you can play in this lifetime instead of waiting for years on a unfinished product.

Someone's looking for attention...