May 1940 USSR DOW in MP??

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May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 1:58:04 AM

AltarisGreyhawke

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So had the USSR get influenced and attack me in an MP game in May 1940, the turn after France fell.

That seems... extreme. What is the counter strategy to this? Pretty sure I'm dead now, despite having a very successful run up to this point...

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 2:50:18 AM

Sugar

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The counter is... counter diplo.

(in reply to AltarisGreyhawke)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 3:00:17 AM

Christolos

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I would add that situational awareness that could lead to counter diplo, is the first step.

Cheers,

C

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 10:12:28 AM

AltarisGreyhawke

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Well I did that, never once succeeded in getting a counter diplomacy roll. Granted, Allies got one boost before I realized what they were doing and started investing in diplomacy myself, which took me 3-4 turns to get up to full chits in it. At 175 cost a piece, that's a HUGE investment for getting absolutely nothing and ending up with a 1940 Soviet Union to deal with (which also seems to be at full 1941 strength, that seems off too).

I do see he did not annex the Baltic States, does that help the Soviets stay higher in Allies diplomacy favor or something?

This just seems really off to me for a WW2 game. Stalin was notoriously suspicious of the UK.

So if I'm reading this right, the MP consensus is everyone dumps their points into influencing the USSR from the beginning of the game?

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Post #: 4

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 11:13:13 AM

Sugar

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You can watch ongoing activities in the stats (research/diplomacy). If your opponent is investing heavily, perhaps you should do the same, and you should better do it before it`s too late.

quote:

Well I did that, never once succeeded in getting a counter diplomacy roll.

That's not how this works, any chit is completely nullifying the enemy's, but to achieve a hit, you'll have to have more chits invested than your opponent. Since Germany has 5 chits available and Italy 3, the 5 brit. chits can't succeed any longer after France has fallen (and her 2 chits).

Major diplo targets (US, SU) are easily to identify, the costs of influencing are 175/chit instead of 50 for minor targets. The SU is more likely to be the targetted nation, since her joining also speeds US entry.

(in reply to AltarisGreyhawke)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 2:51:29 PM

DeriKuk

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Another clue in situational awareness (in this case) is... the Allied stance towards FINLAND, and - to a lesser extent - the French banning of the Communist deputies.

Supporting the Fins and banning the deputies both go a long way towards alienating the Soviet Union. With this alienation the SU will take a long time in preparing for war, and may actually be fatally unready when Barbarossa rolls around. I'd say that the result of these events is a major flaw in the scenarios and scripts. No sane, competitive Allied player will opt to exercise them; so... a "perfect solution".

I hope the powers-that-be (Hubert?) reconsider these events. Perhaps reneging on "Finnish Intervention" could accelerate Italian support for the Axis cause; while Banning the Deputies could knock a few points off Spanish leanings towards the Axis? Both of these are historically plausible, and they do not break the scenarios as they currently do.

< Message edited by DeriKuk -- 7/10/2018 2:53:47 PM >

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 3:09:30 PM

dave123

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I would just surrender and chalk it up to a very lucky allied diplo win.

To alter your strategy going forward and start dumping a bunch of diplo to avoid this happening again is not (IMO) a winning strategy.

Sometimes, things just don't go your way.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/10/2018 6:41:03 PM

Sugar

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It`s also undoubtly not a winning strategy to ignore you're opponent's strategy (in this case a 25-35% chance to hit every single turn until the joining), and in case of the well known "uber"-strategy not even necessary.

Several threads are treating this problem, I recommend to read them, right after the (whole) manual of course.

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Post #: 8

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/11/2018 12:01:01 AM

AltarisGreyhawke

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Thanks for the clarification of rules Sugar. In particular, I was unaware I could track diplo spending on the report graphs, I will keep an eye out for this in later games, I'm fairly new to this game.

I still think it's a dumb mechanic that the Soviet Union would've even entertained the idea of joining the Allies that early.

(in reply to Sugar)

Post #: 9

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/11/2018 12:15:09 AM

Taxman66

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I don't like the major power diplo game either. It just makes the game so heavily luck based. I can go to a casino for that experience.

There's a game start option, iirc, for no diplo. I wish that was replaced (or added option) for a 'no major power' diplo option.

I've also suggested in the past to change major power diplo chits to costing only 50 MPP (like any other chit) but reducing the mobilization effect of a successful chit to 1/3 that of a minor's. Note that major power chits never get the rare special double effect.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/11/2018 2:14:45 AM

Sugar

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Hehe, personally I am friend of uber-diplo as Axis-player, since every single attempt ended badly for the Allies so far. I like the idea of a weak GB, the Axis can much easier afford the costs, and it's not too bad to counter even though influencing Spain.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/11/2018 10:44:27 AM

PvtBenjamin

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I also believe that the major power diplo needs some major modifications, it can completely overwhelm the game. Major power diplo should be limited to 1 chit per country.

One of my current Axis opponents has spent 8 chits (6 German, 2 Italian) on USSR diplo, its ridiculous.

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Post #: 12

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/11/2018 8:04:05 PM

Elessar2

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In the case of Stalin, it is even more preposterous. He, given his underlying paranoia, would have undoubtedly have seen a major diplomatic push by the Western Allies as their meddling in Soviet affairs, and would have likely backfired, very badly. I mean, what would the form of said diplomatic pressures have taken, exactly? Promises of shipments of goods? [then there should be some scripts/a mechanic for that] Otherwise you are simply referring to the Allies sending a blizzard of telegrams, phone calls, and diplomats the Russian's way--but how effective would that really be, in the end? Talk is cheap, and in Stalin's case utterly worthless.

I mean, take a look at Franco as well while we're at it. There was really nothing Hitler could have said to have changed his mind--the things Franco wanted were the things Hitler/Moose simply were unable to deliver.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/12/2018 12:56:12 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

In the case of Stalin, it is even more preposterous. He, given his underlying paranoia, would have undoubtedly have seen a major diplomatic push by the Western Allies as their meddling in Soviet affairs, and would have likely backfired, very badly. I mean, what would the form of said diplomatic pressures have taken, exactly? Promises of shipments of goods? [then there should be some scripts/a mechanic for that] Otherwise you are simply referring to the Allies sending a blizzard of telegrams, phone calls, and diplomats the Russian's way--but how effective would that really be, in the end? Talk is cheap, and in Stalin's case utterly worthless.

I mean, take a look at Franco as well while we're at it. There was really nothing Hitler could have said to have changed his mind--the things Franco wanted were the things Hitler/Moose simply were unable to deliver.

Agreed.

If major country diplo was limited to one chit it would be much more realistic. In 1940 neither the Soviets or US were going to enter the war with Allies. On the flip side with war raging all around him Stalin definitely wasn't going to reduce his military spending at all and certainly wouldn't have reduced it to zero which is possible here.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/12/2018 8:00:07 PM

DonCzirr

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Is this only a concern in MP?

or also against the AI?

I'm just getting started (just finished Poland) - would you guys advise to start over with no Diplomacy enabled (with the game in its current state)?

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/12/2018 8:36:22 PM

PvtBenjamin

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I'd recommend keeping diplo on, its an important part of the game. You can monitor your opponents diplo moves in the graph section (175 =US or USSR, 50 increments probably Spain, Sweden or Turkey but could be others). The issue is really a PBEM issue where the human player will try much more aggressive tactics than the AI.

enjoy the game

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/12/2018 11:32:36 PM

DonCzirr

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Thanks for the advice.

Diplomacy "on" seems like it would be more interesting as long as it did not break the game.

Enjoying it a lot so far. The game has an excellent feel to it.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/13/2018 3:15:30 AM

vonRocko

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Yeah, the AI won't do that.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 10:42:30 AM

BillRunacre

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Hi everyone

I'd be very interested to hear more about this game where the Allies have invested heavily in the USSR.

How much, and what effect has this had on Britain and France's military defences? Can the UK now afford to defend itself against Sea Lion or to defend Egypt? Will France fall sooner?

Thanks

Bill

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Post #: 19

RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 11:25:38 AM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi everyone

I'd be very interested to hear more about this game where the Allies have invested heavily in the USSR.

How much, and what effect has this had on Britain and France's military defences? Can the UK now afford to defend itself against Sea Lion or to defend Egypt? Will France fall sooner?

Thanks

Bill

Hi Bill,

My current game actually involves the AXIS spending extreme amounts on Diplo.

My Axis opponent has spent 1750 (10 chits - German & Italian) on USSR & US mobilization, I countered with 3 Brit & 1 French chits on USSR diplo. France has fallen so I currently have 3 Brit chits on USSR. All of my DE's (no to banning communists, etc etc) are to maximize USSR mobilization towards the Allies.

It is June 1941 and USSR mobilization is at zero and US 46%. I doubt this is in the spirit of the game and a historic absurdity.

The game probably needs some type limitations on Major country diplo.

My opponent didn't attempt sea lion and I still hold Egypt.

thanks

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 11:30:50 AM

KorutZelva

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Diplo is balanced. Wolf criers are just people bad at it (ie monitoring diplo activity and budgeting for it).

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 11:44:56 AM

PvtBenjamin

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KZ did you read my post. It is impossible to defend against as Allies.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 11:57:40 AM

Taxman66

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Bill it severely hurts the UK.
You can read my current AAR with IrishGuards for this exact situation.

As the allied player I did not intend on a heavy USSR diplo game, but was forced into it to match Axis spending. The UK is hurting badly from it and, sadly to admit, my poor (limited) build choice reaction to it. The Axis player delayed Tech investment, and heavily built units early. This combined with a surprisingly mild 1939/1940 fall-winter-spring meant Germany hurting France early and often and led to an early conquest which in turn is leading to a relatively easy Sea Lion. Again, admitidly enhanced by my mistake(s).

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 11:58:15 AM

KorutZelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ did you read my post. It is impossible to defend against as Allies.

All I saw was that you were 2 chits short with the French, and are 2 chits short with the brits. Which is kind of my point.

The Allies have the chits advantage while Italy is inactive, they can go on the offensive in that department. I've demonstrated it before. USSR doesn't tank all the way to 0% if you max your chits to meet a diplo challenge appropriately. Even at France fall the gap is just 3 chits. At 15% chance, provided you didn't let it collapse in the interval, the USSR cash flow will not be irremediably damaged. Once the turn +% increases start, its costly for the Axis to contain it. (Re: AAR KZ vs taxman in trying to diplo the US out of the war)

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 12:02:27 PM

KorutZelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi everyone

I'd be very interested to hear more about this game where the Allies have invested heavily in the USSR.

How much, and what effect has this had on Britain and France's military defences? Can the UK now afford to defend itself against Sea Lion or to defend Egypt? Will France fall sooner?

Thanks

Bill

Be sure to check out my AAR vs Sugar where I did just that. I went uber Diplo and still had enough resource to go in the offensive in NA. The Isle was (mostly) stripped bare but that was a cost I was willing to pay to increase USSR readiness/challenge Axis position in NA.

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 7/14/2018 12:12:15 PM >

(in reply to BillRunacre)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 12:15:15 PM

PvtBenjamin

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My opponent did't spend 1750 on the first turn. I matched him and when France fell he increased diplo at which point I can't counter, sure I could have increased the Brits and had no defense. If you think its in the spirit of the game that the Brits spend 875 and French 525 on USSR diplo prior to 6/40 so be it.

How do you defend France when you spend 525 on diplo by the way, you dont.

Guys who lose to Axis in '43 shouldn't have such bravado.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 7/14/2018 12:16:09 PM >

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 12:17:32 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi everyone

I'd be very interested to hear more about this game where the Allies have invested heavily in the USSR.

How much, and what effect has this had on Britain and France's military defences? Can the UK now afford to defend itself against Sea Lion or to defend Egypt? Will France fall sooner?

Thanks

Bill

Be sure to check out my AAR vs Sugar where I did just that. I went uber Diplo and still had enough resource to go in the offensive in NA. The Isle was (mostly) stripped bare but that was a cost I was willing to pay to increase USSR readiness/challenge Axis position in NA.

Bill also notice he lost in 1943.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 12:47:49 PM

Taxman66

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Just as bad is the fact that the Axis can force uber diplo as much as the Allies can.

It will delay German investment in either Tech or units, but it will cripple the UK in both.

As I said before it's also has a heavy roulette factor. Whoever invests first gets a turn ar the chance wheel without a counter balance from the opposing side. With Plunder Germany can invest in more chits in a single turn than the UK can match. France can match/play too but the price is devistating to her defences and in the end only temporary.

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 1:19:31 PM

KorutZelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

My opponent did't spend 1750 on the first turn. I matched him and when France fell he increased diplo at which point I can't counter, sure I could have increased the Brits and had no defense. If you think its in the spirit of the game that the Brits spend 875 and French 525 on USSR diplo prior to 6/40 so be it.

How do you defend France when you spend 525 on diplo by the way, you dont.

Guys who lose to Axis in '43 shouldn't have such bravado.

That's still 2 chits in France not spent (sell your planes if you have to) and two chits from the UK you didn't spend as late as June 1941 after the Axis plan was evident. (It's even more evident now you can see it's 175mp of diplospending and can't mistake it with 3 chits in Spain for example.) You have to accept you are just bad at it, mate. No need to overhaul the game.

The spirit of the game is flexibility to act out history in new ways. Most strategies leaves you weak in another aspects which your opponent can use to its advantage. If you're sticking to your guns and don't adapt, you lose. That's it.

If you need an example on how to respond to it, start a game. I'll play allies and show you firsthand. We can make an AAR out of it.

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)

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RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? - 7/14/2018 1:22:03 PM

KorutZelva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi everyone

I'd be very interested to hear more about this game where the Allies have invested heavily in the USSR.

How much, and what effect has this had on Britain and France's military defences? Can the UK now afford to defend itself against Sea Lion or to defend Egypt? Will France fall sooner?

Thanks

Bill

Be sure to check out my AAR vs Sugar where I did just that. I went uber Diplo and still had enough resource to go in the offensive in NA. The Isle was (mostly) stripped bare but that was a cost I was willing to pay to increase USSR readiness/challenge Axis position in NA.

Bill also notice he lost in 1943.

Heh. Vs anyone not named Sugar that game is won easily by the Allies. Still took him to one turn short of 1945. That record will likely stick a while.

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)

Post #: 30