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how much is needed - 7/20/2018 7:07:09 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		So i marched a force 5x the AV of the enemy (i opened the save the turn before as the AI team to double check after this result) and did a deliberate attack. All units were 100 prepared, I had plenty of supply and support. Enemy forts were only level 4. I had odds of 1 to 4 and lost 25% of my AV after the battle, hardly did anything to the enemy. What do I need to bring to win that first battle, 100 to 1?
Post #: 1
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 7:16:36 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You need adjusted odds of 6 to 1 after combat if you did not reduce the forts. Your odds must be two levels higher than the forts.

Bring in artillery and bombard with them, air units and if at all possible, naval task forces. Make sure that you have good leaders, a corp and a higher HQ within range - prep them for the base as well.

What is more important than AV is firepower. Each unit has a firepower value and a smaller but better equipped force will have a greater firepower than one that is not as well equipped.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 2
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 7:19:38 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		You're leaving out a lot of important information. That and your "squawking" indicate you're relatively new to the game and the combat system.

What is the terrain type? If it's 2x or 3x, then you have a long, tough fight on your hand.

What type of squads are involved? A 1944 US combat squad is a different animal from an at-start Indian brigade squad.

Do you have engineers and arty and armor? What about HQs? Are your commanding officers good? Were your units fully supplied? What is their experience level compared to the enemy's (you won't know the latter, unless you peeked). What were the disruption and fatigue levels for your units prior to combat? And there's even more beyond those basics.

You probably didn't "lose" 25% of your AV. You probably suffered heavy disablements (as opposed to actual destruction) so that your army can rest and recover some/all of that lost AV with time.

There are incredible nuances in waging a war against a dug-in enemy, but if it was easy, the game would be too simple.

To answer your question of "how much is needed?" bringing 100x would always be better than bringing 5x.

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 3
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 7:22:04 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		The answer to the question "How much is needed?" is always " A little more than you actually have."

For defenders in a medium to high level fort, it is very rare that you can defeat them and capture the base in one attack. It usually takes a while, several attacks plus bombing and naval bombardment if possible.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 4
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 8:07:47 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have 2 infantry divisions, 9 infantry regiments, 2 tank regiments, but no arty in hex. I have no idea how to check the x value of the target. The target is Nouema and I marched from the adjacent hex, very little fatigue was present or disruption. Most of these units have exp level at 70s or higher, this isn't their first battle. Several have exp in the 90s and the lowest is mid 60s. Morale is all in the upper 90s. The timeframe is mid 1943. No HQ unit in hex but there is one close. Unit commanders are left for what the AI assigned me. I am not sure the best way to pick them from the pool.

How close do I need that HQ unit and does it need to be on the island or could I station it at Fiji where I own the island there?

Did a more detailed "peek" at the enemy and they have basically 1 combat unit giving them about 95% of their assault value, then a lot of base support since there is a major port and airfield here.

My personal level is indeed a newbie, played some WiTP back in the day but this is my first go with AE. As for "squawking", i guess that is a shot at me somehow, and doesn't seem to be helpful to teaching new people the intricate parts of the game. If I need to seek help elsewhere let me know where that is.

(in reply to jwolf)
Post #: 5
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 8:32:27 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		For the HQs, in the upper left corner of the unit screen, it will show a "command radius" which will tell you are far the command influence reaches. Also, the command influence is halved if the combat units are not commanded by that specific headquarters unit. The units will have artillery embedded with them but there are also independent artillery units.

Combat engineers are the best units to reduce forts. There are independent combat engineer units as well as embedded engineer units.

Also, are you Japanese or Allied? If allied, are your units upgraded to the latest units since they should have more firepower per AV than the units at the beginning of the game.

If you play with no fog of war or have reconned your target with air units, simply putting the mouse cursor on the unit(s) should give you an idea of what is there. It is not necessarily accurate but it is better than nothing. The combat report also shows manpower, guns, and vehicles. The guns also include guns that don't bombard but are direct fire weapons only. The vehicles include such things as trucks and artillery trackors.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 6
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 8:43:42 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Also, the command influence is halved if the combat units are not commanded by that specific headquarters unit


This is not correct for ground units. Ground units do not care which HQ is present whatsoever.


More to the point of the OP, you had many small units and only 2 large units. Also, AV is not firepower. Firepower figures into the adjusted AV that you see in the combat.

What I am about to say after this is really only a general guess based on what you listed having, and the ratio of your raw AV to the enemy raw AV. What was the adjusted AV? If your adjusted AV was much less than your raw AV while your opponent's adjusted AV was not much higher than his raw AV, then the problem likely lies in your units somewhere (and their firepower). If your enemy's adjusted AV was multiples higher than his raw AV and your adjusted AV was somewhere in the ballpark of your AV, then the issue is actually that your opponent's units are well dug-in and/or in good defensive terrain.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 9:16:16 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Sorry, my mistake.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 8
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 9:17:44 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		How much supply did the marching units bring with them? You may need to land more in the target hex now that they have arrived.

Did you attack the turn after you arrived in the hex or did you wait a turn or two?

I find this to have one of the biggest impacts on performance.

Give your troops a day to shake out after the arrival and get supply set for the attack.

Whenever I have seen the extreme result of having my adjusted AV reduced to zero it was because I attacked before my troops were set and ready.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 9
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 9:59:40 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		For a start 4 forts are not "only" and you need engineers to reduce them, either in Infantry units and/or in engineering units.

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Post #: 10
RE: how much is needed - 7/20/2018 10:12:50 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		And battles take time, very few WW2 battles were completed overnight. Bombard him 2-3 times, get some airpower or shipping to bombard him. Be patient.


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Post #: 11
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 6:02:06 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

How much supply did the marching units bring with them? You may need to land more in the target hex now that they have arrived.

Did you attack the turn after you arrived in the hex or did you wait a turn or two?

I find this to have one of the biggest impacts on performance.

Give your troops a day to shake out after the arrival and get supply set for the attack.

Whenever I have seen the extreme result of having my adjusted AV reduced to zero it was because I attacked before my troops were set and ready.


The effect of the delay that you observe is likely the field fortifications.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 6:02:18 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

For a start 4 forts are not "only" and you need engineers to reduce them, either in Infantry units and/or in engineering units.


They can be reduced by assaults.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 13
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 10:37:10 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

For a start 4 forts are not "only" and you need engineers to reduce them, either in Infantry units and/or in engineering units.


They can be reduced by assaults.



Absolutely. But without combat engineers, the adjusted AV will have to be high enough to get the odds necessary, which probably means waiting a turn or two after arrival for that likely field fort effect to apply.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 14
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 1:02:00 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

So i marched a force 5x the AV of the enemy (i opened the save the turn before as the AI team to double check after this result) and did a deliberate attack. All units were 100 prepared, I had plenty of supply and support. Enemy forts were only level 4. I had odds of 1 to 4 and lost 25% of my AV after the battle, hardly did anything to the enemy. What do I need to bring to win that first battle, 100 to 1?



Hello! Most of the posters here have touched on the specifics, but may I add the importance of reducing your opponent to zero or near-zero supply. If he is reduced to zero supply his AV is cut to 25% of his full strength supply.

A efficient way of reducing his supply is to fly lots of air strikes against his unit so they consume their supply shooting at your planes. You may have to fly low to get him to use his AA, but you'll also see by the AA losses you take how low his supply is. When your planes take little or no damage he's ready for your attack.

Bombardment also drains his supply, but it drains yours also. And when he is OOS feel free to shock-attack as your losses will be greatly reduced. Don't shock attack until your last direct attack was over 1-1.

Good luck and welcome!

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 15
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 2:56:22 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

So i marched a force 5x the AV of the enemy (i opened the save the turn before as the AI team to double check after this result) and did a deliberate attack. All units were 100 prepared, I had plenty of supply and support. Enemy forts were only level 4. I had odds of 1 to 4 and lost 25% of my AV after the battle, hardly did anything to the enemy. What do I need to bring to win that first battle, 100 to 1?



Hello! Most of the posters here have touched on the specifics, but may I add the importance of reducing your opponent to zero or near-zero supply. If he is reduced to zero supply his AV is cut to 25% of his full strength supply.

A efficient way of reducing his supply is to fly lots of air strikes against his unit so they consume their supply shooting at your planes. You may have to fly low to get him to use his AA, but you'll also see by the AA losses you take how low his supply is. When your planes take little or no damage he's ready for your attack.

Bombardment also drains his supply, but it drains yours also. And when he is OOS feel free to shock-attack as your losses will be greatly reduced. Don't shock attack until your last direct attack was over 1-1.

Good luck and welcome!

+1

This is probably the most important part of the invasion process. Prepping the intended target. The Japanese do not get this luxury as much as they are on a time table. This works to the allies' advantage very well. Naval bombardment {many times} with LBA bombing if possible, and do so for a month or more.

Also, if you are invading an area with a few nearby bases, invade the base that can get to at least level 4 airbase. Take the base, fill in the holes you made, extend the landing strip to 4 and move LBA in to bomb and suppress the other nearby bases. You can use the LBA at your new base to prep the nearby islands for invasion.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 16
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 4:22:21 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info all. I am playing Japan. I don't recall what the enemy AV was adjusted to in the combat report, but mine was definitely lower. I did attack the day of arrival, i will remember to wait a few days in the future. My squads do have embedded engineers but I don't have a specific combat engineer squad with this group at this time. I am now moving ships and planes down to bombard them, and will get recon going on it. As for reducing their supply, I normally try to do this, but as I recall Noumea has resources and industry so this might not be possible. I think my HQ unit needs moved closer as it was too far away so I will get that remedied.

Thanks again for the tips. Land combat is the one part of the game that I have the least grasp on it seems. This so far has easily been my most successful campaign however as I have more than 3x VP to the allies in June 1943. I think if that holds until December I will win, but the allies have begun their attacks. My carriers are always ready to pluck invasion fleets from the water before they arrive, but some are finding holes and getting through :D

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 17
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 4:24:25 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		While I am thinking about it, what are good leaders for land units like divisions and the like? Do i want combat, assault, etc and what stats should be the priority?

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 18
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 5:45:09 PM   
DanSez


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Status: offline
Admin helps with disabled squads recovering. If possible pick your HQ commander with higher admin and it will help multiple units recover within command range.

Land, Leadership, Aggression are what I look to assign to Assault Units and higher Admin is a tie-breaker if I am considering between equal commanders.


(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 19
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 8:35:07 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

Thanks for the info all. I am playing Japan. I don't recall what the enemy AV was adjusted to in the combat report, but mine was definitely lower. I did attack the day of arrival, i will remember to wait a few days in the future. My squads do have embedded engineers but I don't have a specific combat engineer squad with this group at this time. I am now moving ships and planes down to bombard them, and will get recon going on it. As for reducing their supply, I normally try to do this, but as I recall Noumea has resources and industry so this might not be possible. I think my HQ unit needs moved closer as it was too far away so I will get that remedied.

Thanks again for the tips. Land combat is the one part of the game that I have the least grasp on it seems. This so far has easily been my most successful campaign however as I have more than 3x VP to the allies in June 1943. I think if that holds until December I will win, but the allies have begun their attacks. My carriers are always ready to pluck invasion fleets from the water before they arrive, but some are finding holes and getting through :D


To get back to the original question - x4 forts at Noumea, which IIRC is x3 jungle-rough, you need x12 his AV to maybe get a 1:1 result. His infantry (or Marine) division is way better than yours (firepower), so you need more than 2. With 4 Japanese divisions, and a couple combat engineer regiments, and continuous air and naval bombardment, you should be able to wear him down in a couple weeks. He's likely got tons of supply, too.

(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 20
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 8:44:14 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

While I am thinking about it, what are good leaders for land units like divisions and the like? Do i want combat, assault, etc and what stats should be the priority?


Land combat rating should be a priority. Aggression, Inspiration and others secondary to that.

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Post #: 21
RE: how much is needed - 7/21/2018 9:29:23 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougmichel

Thanks for the info all. I am playing Japan. I don't recall what the enemy AV was adjusted to in the combat report, but mine was definitely lower. I did attack the day of arrival, i will remember to wait a few days in the future. My squads do have embedded engineers but I don't have a specific combat engineer squad with this group at this time. I am now moving ships and planes down to bombard them, and will get recon going on it. As for reducing their supply, I normally try to do this, but as I recall Noumea has resources and industry so this might not be possible. I think my HQ unit needs moved closer as it was too far away so I will get that remedied.

Thanks again for the tips. Land combat is the one part of the game that I have the least grasp on it seems. This so far has easily been my most successful campaign however as I have more than 3x VP to the allies in June 1943. I think if that holds until December I will win, but the allies have begun their attacks. My carriers are always ready to pluck invasion fleets from the water before they arrive, but some are finding holes and getting through :D


To get back to the original question - x4 forts at Noumea, which IIRC is x3 jungle-rough, you need x12 his AV to maybe get a 1:1 result. His infantry (or Marine) division is way better than yours (firepower), so you need more than 2. With 4 Japanese divisions, and a couple combat engineer regiments, and continuous air and naval bombardment, you should be able to wear him down in a couple weeks. He's likely got tons of supply, too.

I don't think they multiply, I think they add. Still plenty to overcome!

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Post #: 22
RE: how much is needed - 7/22/2018 7:48:09 PM   
dougmichel


Posts: 58
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks all, finally broke their back and took out about 30 total units, mostly support units of course. Also trapped hundreds of bombers in the island chain between Fiji and Noumea and bombarded them into total repair and then landed a division and destroyed them all. Feels good to finally get a major victory after so many turns of nothing. Just hoping to hold out to the win condition at the end of the year, 5 months left. Gotta be vigilant for AI invasions now. Massive sub screen to the east of Rabaul and the eastern island chains are helping spot TF on the way in.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 23
RE: how much is needed - 7/22/2018 8:18:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		That is the easiest way to get rid of Allied bombers later in the war - bombard their airstrips with naval task forces. Invading is just the icing on the cake.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to dougmichel)
Post #: 24
RE: how much is needed - 7/22/2018 8:24:45 PM   
RogerJNeilson


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From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline 		That assumes you have some navy left to bombard with later in the war.........


Roger

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Post #: 25
RE: how much is needed - 7/23/2018 1:51:06 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Surround the enemy if you can. Have plenty of combat engineer squads. You will notice that you will lose a lot of casualties in your combat engineer squads reducing fortifications. If the fortification level is four, you are going to lose a lot of combat engineers and may well run out of them before the fortification level is reduced to zero. In that case you may have to sit and wait for your replacement system to come up with some more combat engineers, and I mean a long time as they are precious commodities not to be expended lightly. Proper preparation prevents poor results (edit, performance).

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 7/23/2018 1:57:49 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: how much is needed - 7/23/2018 1:53:35 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		You also need to bomb the heck out of his airfield (and port if one is present) in order to keep his engineers busy with repairs rather than fortifying.

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Post #: 27
RE: how much is needed - 7/23/2018 2:00:31 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Also, maybe you should fire the unit commanders and replace them with better ones.

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Post #: 28
RE: how much is needed - 7/23/2018 7:32:52 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		All the above is good advice. Remember you may plan the perfect op and be done in by 'bad dice rolls' no matter what.

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Post #: 29
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