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Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 7:04:31 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Is it just me or have others experienced where, when playing the allies, that once the tide starts to turn in your favor the Axis the axis player just drops out w/out so much as a "bye!"? I understand that the game isn't as fun for the axis once all hope for victory is lost, but that really isn't fair to the allied player. I personally would not quit unless my opponent was okay with it. I certainly wouldn't just stop playing w/out a word.
Post #: 1
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 7:10:15 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		See the following:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4456700


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Post #: 2
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 7:12:34 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		Actually, I had another thread a bit more closer to your subject that made come up with that one. I'll see if I can find it.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 3
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 7:52:05 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Even with those conditions though there would still be a point at which the axis side would conclude that they were not going to win, and therefore such players would still quit.

Leaderboards might help -- there would be motivation to try for a draw vs. forfeitting.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 4
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 8:14:53 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		Right now I have a condition that Germany wins if they hold Berlin December, 1945 which is hopefully worth the Axis player fighting onward for.

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Post #: 5
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 8:38:40 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

Right now I have a condition that Germany wins if they hold Berlin December, 1945 which is hopefully worth the Axis player fighting onward for.


Is that for a customized version? Or just an understanding between you and your opponent?

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 6
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 9:02:23 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		That's for his mod.

It's a bit of the same issue though.

The main problem is the victory conditions.
The vanilla game requires the Axis to win the war.
This in turn means that Axis players have to maximize their High Water potential and damn long term consequences. So Axis research tends to end in mid/late 1942; Some Axis DE choices (e.g. Italy forges attacking Greece) are picked purely for short(er) term benefit; etc...

Then if the Axis player realizes he can't achieve a win, to him the game is over as a loss. No sense in playing it out, as Berlin/Rome falling in 1947 is the same as them falling in 1944.

Having said that, there should be a least be a courteous offer of resignation.



_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 7
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 10:16:08 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66
The main problem is the victory conditions.
The vanilla game requires the Axis to win the war.


Ah, I see, I misread the manual. I suppose that allowing for a draw would help. Well, then, as long as it is counted as a loss (vs. just "unfinished"). Still, resigning would be nice. That at least give the allied player the chance to review the map.

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Post #: 8
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 11:05:56 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		A draw is already possible. The victory conditions are more than fair, other than the VietCong the Axis had to win, nobody would have negotiated peace terms with Nazis. Besides, not only Axis players quit without reporting.

We're all playing for fun, what's the point in forcing your opponent to continue when joy has ended? At least quitting would be honorable, otherwise the loser is possibly noted as winning side.

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Post #: 9
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/29/2018 11:39:44 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I have no problem with an opponent resigning, only with them just "quitting" (ie, they stop taking their turn, leaving the game in an unfinished state). I currently have three games in that state now. No one wins every game, just admit you lost and move on.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 10
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 12:05:47 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

We're all playing for fun, what's the point in forcing your opponent to continue when joy has ended?


The problem is that for the axis "fun" is the early years, when you're destroying your opponents forces and devising different approaches for victory. The fun doesn't start for the allied player until later, clawing Europe back from the retreating axis armies, trying to take Berlin before the clock runs out. The first half can be damned frustrating!

Maybe the answer is that we all play axis.

(in reply to bfcj)
Post #: 11
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 3:05:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Nobody has fun playing defense? That's missing most of the game's fun. Anybody can overrun Europe as the Axis, the challenge is defending what you've taken. The Allies have fun holding on until they can gain superiority. That is Grand Strategy! Anyone who quits before the game is over should be red listed, it's disrespectful, a waste of other players time, and quite silly. Another fine reason not to play against humans!

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Post #: 12
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 3:49:20 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Anyone who quits before the game is over should be red listed, it's disrespectful, a waste of other players time, and quite silly.


Like all the grandmasters in chess, when they're giving up?

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Post #: 13
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 4:09:52 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

Anyone who quits before the game is over should be red listed, it's disrespectful, a waste of other players time, and quite silly.


Like all the grandmasters in chess, when they're giving up?


That's apples and oranges. Chess is an even game at the start.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 14
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 5:48:54 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		And for the chess analogy, I doubt a grand master would concede when a stalemate was possible.

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Post #: 15
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 5:49:35 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Really? Both sides have to do the right things to be able to succeed, the Axis by attacking and the Allies by delaying and counterattacking in the first stage of the war. Both should be fun; but the Axis is condemned to succeed. They have to keep going until they reach all of their objectives, otherwise both players know war is lost for the Axis. No point in continuing when the outcome is clear.

Perhaps you should play more Axis? As I already mentioned, it`s not related to on specific side.

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Post #: 16
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 6:25:21 PM   
Rannug61


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/14/2018
Status: offline 		I always fight to the end if my opponent wants to to have his fun. I like the same done to me but if you just see it as a game I can understand if people are resigning. I play to win but it can also be seen as a simulation of WW2-Europe and from that point of view I can enjoy a game even if it just to see how long one can survive.

If I play against Sugar as Allied and he hasn't won before 1945, I would see that as a morale victory

My one and only game vs Sugar was lost in 1942 or maybe it was in 43...

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Post #: 17
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 6:28:33 PM   
Trump2016

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 8/24/2013
Status: offline 		So it sounds like the game will end in 1941 or early 1942 one way or the other when playing against a human opponent?


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Post #: 18
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 6:32:58 PM   
Rannug61


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/14/2018
Status: offline 		I have had games that I thought was lost in 41/42 but I won in the end by never giving up. Your opponent may make mistakes even if he has the upper hand early in the war.

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"En svensk tiger"

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Post #: 19
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 6:35:43 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Don't get me wrong, if both sides start with that understanding then that is fine. I just find it annoying when I finally feel like I am getting the upper hand, that I might just be able to pull this out, and the turn notifications stop coming.

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Post #: 20
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 6:58:23 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		That's simply a matter of communication, just demand your own conditions while searching for an opponent.

During the last updates and new tactics the average length has increased hugely, and I personally don't mind how long it takes to achieve a DV, since random factors like weather, diplo hits and even some bad dice roles are able to delay all planning. At least we're playing together, and that's far more enjoyable than crushing poor AI.


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Post #: 21
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 7:58:26 PM   
LordOfPants

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 4/5/2018
Status: offline 		You get the same problem with board games. I remember one particular game of Advanced Third Reich that went pretty much perfectly to play defense, the Axis tried a fairly standard Barbarossa, hurt the USSR but didn't win and didn't lose by a complete collapse. It was a rare game where 1943-1945 were going to be tense defense instead of either a straight Axis victory or an early collapse. And... my opponent just conceded, didn't even want to try for the tactical or phyrric victory conditions (holding out longer than historically).

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Post #: 22
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 8:24:54 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		I have no problem if my opponent resigns. There comes a point that dragging all those soviet troops thru the mud for the inevitable gets tiresome.

Just abandoning games is wrong tho, by resigning they admit defeat.

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Post #: 23
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 8:35:17 PM   
bfcj


Posts: 121
Joined: 4/10/2018
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I just sometimes feel like a guinea pig. An axis player tries some totally unrealistic strategy with very little chance for success, then if it doesn't pan out it's "see yah!". I'd personally feel better if there were some skin in the game (even just public scoring for wins/losses/draws), motivation to fight to the bitter end.

Again though, as long as the ground rules are established in advance.

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Post #: 24
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 7/30/2018 9:59:03 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		I feel your pain. The game is very good at punishing the unrealistic strategy. In my opinion there comes a time when I'm ok if the Axis player resigns. In my experience most players are serious opponents that have respect for the game.

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Post #: 25
RE: Vanishing Axis players - 8/2/2018 11:42:42 PM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I see no problem resigning if, through one's own poor play or being over-matched by a skilled opponent, playing through means prolonging a slaughter. I suspect even the winner gets bored if it becomes too one-sided. I just resigned very early for Axis (mid-1942) against a very skilled Allied player (who showed me a few things about good Allied play let me tell you). However I am also playing through to the bitter end currently as Axis and had a recent opponent do so as well. I will resign rather than disappear, as I think my opponent deserves some finality. People will sometimes hold off if they are not sure their opponent isn't coming back. Resigning let's them clear the decks for another game against someone else.

< Message edited by elxaime -- 8/2/2018 11:43:55 PM >

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Post #: 26
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