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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class?

 
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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 3:06:24 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?


A big troop ship like the US Navy did in 1945, but only after Japan surrendered.



Except for using submarines, there is no more expensive way to move troops than by CV. Over any sort of distance they lack potable water capabilities to berth significant troop numbers as well.

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The Moose

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Post #: 31
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 3:33:54 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Maybe they only want to cross a little straight and want a large open space for helicopters?

Unless they have the support ships for that CV, it won't be effective long away from home. But it might become a home for fishes if any shooting starts . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 32
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 4:27:43 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe they only want to cross a little straight and want a large open space for helicopters?

Unless they have the support ships for that CV, it won't be effective long away from home. But it might become a home for fishes if any shooting starts . . .


Right. That returns to my point that they seek to be a regional naval power. Although a CV is way overkill for a helo hauler.

As soon as you have a CV or CVN you are into 3D threat environments. Air and surface defense is trivial compared to developing ASW that can counter modern SSNs. And SSNs hunt CVs for breakfast. So having a CV at all commits you to a massive naval budget, building program, as well as all the infrastructure that entails. And decades of trying to get good at 3D defense.

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Post #: 33
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 4:59:15 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		And their economy is slowing down so maybe this is a way to boost it. Maybe they have figured that they have stolen enough technology so now they have to build some new toys.

But this will be a way for them to learn and they can use it to lean on countries that they want to. If they can get a good first strike in on someplace that they otherwise can't or threaten to do so, then that becomes a tool of diplomacy as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 34
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 6:06:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

And their economy is slowing down so maybe this is a way to boost it. Maybe they have figured that they have stolen enough technology so now they have to build some new toys.

But this will be a way for them to learn and they can use it to lean on countries that they want to. If they can get a good first strike in on someplace that they otherwise can't or threaten to do so, then that becomes a tool of diplomacy as well.


Who exactly? An airstrike on a peaceful regional power like Indonesia would only make China an international pariah and lead to increased economic isolation. Picking on one state also makes the other regional states more likely to band together in a defensive alliance.

Building warships is a poor use of funds that could go to infrastructure instead, those benefits to spread through the civilian economy. China has vast needs for primary infrastructure, especially in rural areas. They don't need to sink billions into CVs to juice their GDP.

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Post #: 35
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 6:54:39 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...


I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....


I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.



Yeah. Its things like this that make me nervous when we do things like unilaterally dropping out of a Pacific trade agreement, especially when it hasn't even been signed yet. Nations like New Zealand and Australia started talking with China about some sort of agreement. Not a scenario I would encourage.

Edit:Not that it helped that we were excluding China from our agreement. Its always better in my view that we at least attempt to find common ground, without giving or taking too much.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 7/31/2018 7:06:29 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:02:37 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...



I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....


I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.


They did not like it when the United Kingdom had their opium trade with the Chinese people and I am sure that other countries had a similar hook . . .


I get things like that and I know the west wanted a weak and dependent China. As usual its not the case, but at some point we need to learn from the past and not end up in the same situations that result in large catastrophes.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:11:28 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		The national government is NOT going to bail out the local governments which have overspent.

Sometimes the threat alone is enough, especially against a dictator. China is gaining influence in Africa, how many US fleet units are protecting Africa? The current government in the Philippines does not appear to want to have close ties with the United States. Their choice but how much of a commitment will the US have in a dispute over the Spratley Islands if small-scale shooting were to start?

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 38
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:17:55 PM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I get things like that and I know the west wanted a weak and dependent China. As usual its not the case, but at some point we need to learn from the past and not end up in the same situations that result in large catastrophes.


Lots of Chinese producers are still very dependent on western technology and will remain so for awhile. This is part of the reason behind China's push to become a tech leader, especially in strategic industries like semiconductors. It's also why lots of Western countries and Japan have export restrictions on such technologies. In the present trade war, China is in a much weaker position vis a vis the US primarily due to the large disparity in trade flows and the greater leverage its gives the USA via tariffs. The Chinese market is already beginning to seriously feel the effects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bulllwinkle58
Building warships is a poor use of funds that could go to infrastructure instead, those benefits to spread through the civilian economy. China has vast needs for primary infrastructure, especially in rural areas. They don't need to sink billions into CVs to juice their GDP.


Logic and economics are not the only things that dictate national decisions. Indeed, throughout history there are many events and developments that have taken place due to other, sometimes illogical factors. Nationalism, humiliation, prestige, etc. Many made the argument prior to World War I that a great war couldn't happen because global trade had made countries too dependent on each other and war too costly. Then it happened.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Yeah. Its things like this that make me nervous when we do things like unilaterally dropping out of a Pacific trade agreement, especially when it hasn't even been signed yet. Nations like New Zealand and Australia started talking with China about some sort of agreement. Not a scenario I would encourage.


Free trade is a great thing theoretically and even in practice if its truly done so. Unfortunately, almost all nations engage in some form of protectionism, either through formal or informal means of mercantilism. Europe is not an exception; Japan and China are also heavily protectionist. It would be great if we could get true free trade agreements with other nations, but that has never been the case. Europe refuses to open up its agricultural industry as part of any free trade deal, Japan as well, Germany has auto tariffs on US cars, etc. the list goes on.

But those issues are minor relative to the malpractices of China. It would be much more in the interest of the U.S. to keep the EU and other Asian nations close through trade agreements as you say, however bad, and to work together to force China to change its trade practices. Maybe that will happen with the recent US-EU partial rapprochement.

Regarding Australia and NZ, I'm not up-to-date and perhaps some forumite from there can inform us. Last I checked, there was also a lot of discomfort with Chinese influence, such as Chinese investors and local property markets with pushback building. Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:47:17 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.


Not saying that they were and it could've just been a method of getting us to think twice. They've been one of our staunchest allies, at least since WWII, and I for one would hate to see that relationship eroded.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:51:31 PM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.


Not saying that they were and it could've just been a method of getting us to think twice. They've been one of our staunchest allies, at least since WWII, and I for one would hate to see that relationship eroded.


I smell political commentary coming ....GP

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:54:47 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.


Not saying that they were and it could've just been a method of getting us to think twice. They've been one of our staunchest allies, at least since WWII, and I for one would hate to see that relationship eroded.


I smell political commentary coming ....GP


Nah, so far just a pleasant commentary. I think I've gone farther than I usually do in such threads. Pretty much think I'm done with this one, just in case.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 7:57:42 PM   
joey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Don't forget China's submarine building program. It, too, rivals most of the world's nations. China is truly becoming a world military power.


Regional.


Regional is debatable. From a business and economic standpoint, look at how much trade goes through the Far East. Some estimates are that at least 20% of the world's trade goes through the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.
So I would argue the "regional" is in reality a world power. Why else would they be spending so much to build islands in the South China Sea et. al.?

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 8:01:16 PM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.


Not saying that they were and it could've just been a method of getting us to think twice. They've been one of our staunchest allies, at least since WWII, and I for one would hate to see that relationship eroded.


I smell political commentary coming ....GP


Nah, so far just a pleasant commentary. I think I've gone farther than I usually do in such threads. Pretty much think I'm done with this one, just in case.



I was just about to say something political but stopped myself ....GP

_____________________________

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AKA General Patton

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TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

"Do everything you ask of those you command"....Gen. George S. Patton

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 8:04:43 PM   
Anachro


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Status: offline 		It's nice we can have these discussions without delving into base politics. I, for one, make my comments as a contributor to a dialogue.

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 8:30:10 PM   
ny59giants


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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/984716/World-War-3-China-military-Trump-Xi-Jinping-US-win-a-war-in-leaked-memo-militarisation

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 9:28:18 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

To see victory only when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence."



< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 7/31/2018 9:33:45 PM >

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 9:29:03 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		The military, its use and/or the threat thereof, is a tool of diplomacy. It need not be the last tool to be used.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 9:32:43 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		"Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 7/31/2018 9:33:20 PM >

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 9:36:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		As Stalin pointed out, useful idiots. In some places, they abound.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 10:01:46 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Don't forget China's submarine building program. It, too, rivals most of the world's nations. China is truly becoming a world military power.


Regional.


+1

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 10:05:44 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Don't forget China's submarine building program. It, too, rivals most of the world's nations. China is truly becoming a world military power.


Regional.


Regional is debatable. From a business and economic standpoint, look at how much trade goes through the Far East. Some estimates are that at least 20% of the world's trade goes through the Malacca Straits and the South China Sea.
So I would argue the "regional" is in reality a world power. Why else would they be spending so much to build islands in the South China Sea et. al.?



Then what you actually meant by "world military power" was "major naval power." Sure, China could use a strong regional naval capability to threaten others because of their ability to control (to some degree) trade in the SCS - essentially extorting their desired outcomes. But that still just makes them a regional military power.

A world military power can project hard power throughout the world. Currently, the USN is head, shoulders, torso, and thighs above everybody else in (conventional) power projection capacity right now and for the foreseeable future (which is measured in at least a few decades).

If you include nuclear naval power (SSBNs), then the USN is still head and shoulders above everybody else just from quality of technology alone.

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RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 10:28:28 PM   
sstevens06


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Status: offline 		Very insightful comments. RangerJoe nailed it earlier with his post regarding demographics. This is an difficult problem for the PRC, as well as other East Asian nations.

As other contributors have stated it will be a long time until PRC achieves CV operational proficiency approaching the US Navy and Allies. And I think the PRC leadership knows this. My opinion is this is more for PR than anything else. Also in case of war the Type 002 CV will become the #001 target of each and every US Navy SSN Commander.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 10:59:35 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		China has more people in the middle class than the entire United States population.

"March 26, 2018 may go down in history as one of the most significant days in world finance.
At 9am local time, the first trades in crude oil futures denominated in Yuan – China’s currency – appeared on the screens of the Shanghai International Energy Exchange.
Overall, 15.4 million barrels of crude oil changed hands through the new contract.
Oil trading powerhouses Glencore and Trafigura participated in the trade, lending their gravitas to the nascent market. The petro-yuan was born."




The Hunt for USS Petrodollar

(in reply to sstevens06)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 11:09:23 PM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

The petro-yuan was born."
The Hunt for USS Petrodollar


The Petrodollar is alive and well. As for the petro yuan, at 1% of foreign exchange reserves, it is a very long ways away from being a reality. You can make a number of contracts exchanged through local currencies, but I bet you within those Yuan trades, someone, somewhere, is being paid in dollars and therefore the petrodollar is backing it up.


< Message edited by Anachro -- 7/31/2018 11:11:43 PM >

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Post #: 55
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 11:41:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Those petro-yuans might just be for oil going to the PRC . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 7/31/2018 11:57:56 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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Status: offline 		Remember when the Euro was making noise about supplanting the USD as an 'alternative' reserve currency? Circa 2010 or 2011, IIRC. Yeah. It's as funny now as it was then. Same sort of deal with the Renminbi. I don't think other nation states trust a reserve currency that is beholden to the fickle and autocratic opacity that is the PRC Communist Party.

As for the Venezuelan Petromoneda, or other virtual petro-denominated 'IOU', please let me know if you are planning on investing in these so I can take the other side of that bet.

_____________________________


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Post #: 57
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 8/1/2018 1:14:09 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		"Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Iran have agreed to use the petro-yuan for oil purchases."

And China is making other deals with Venezuela and Nigeria. The Saudi Arabia - Iran will be interesting.


But don't lose focus, Oil and the economy will be just some of of a 1000 cuts.


Observation... without a judgement of I'am right or I'am wrong... but for understanding and guidance. And what is seen may not be real or it may be more real than it looks.

I got in the habit of doing this while training under someone who was in the 173rd Airborne Brigade during the last of it's tour in Vietnam. He was involved in getting intel on important NVA/VC peoples and trying to ambush them as they moved from village to village. He made a ambush a work of art.

As he use to say "If your chute don't open, no problem... don't panic everything is fine... it's only that last few inches you have to worry about."

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 8/1/2018 1:40:12 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I like to say that the fall would not bother me, it's that sudden stop at the end.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class? - 8/1/2018 6:52:08 AM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I like to say that the fall would not bother me, it's that sudden stop at the end.



"If your chute don't open, no problem... don't panic everything is fine... it's only that last few inches you have to worry about."

Applies to more than just parachutes

(in reply to RangerJoe)
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