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OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/5/2018 10:56:32 AM

chaos45

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So just got to OCT 1941 soviet sapper regiments now downgrade to sapper battalions.

This is mainly an FYI to all veteran soviet players they are now pointless to build and for sure not worth the 2 AP for regiments prior to the downgrade.

The designers really need to vet massive nerfs like this before they are added to the game.

Many players will hit OCT then realize ohh crap I just wasted AP on sappers that are now useless. At less than 400 men per BN these units are effectively useless now for the Soviet OOB/play as they are no use for construction value or combat value now.

Good job Devs on once more putting in an unneeded and bad change without asking the community. Just like you soviet air group Morale/EXP nerf out of no-where that wasnt needed.

My advice for german players is to master the opening and understand how to keep your panzers fueled and you will do really well. The patch team does not and should not continue to pile on soviet nerfs so that all players can do exceptional as the Germans. Sorry to say but learn to play, the germans are still extremely good in skilled hands.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/5/2018 10:57:54 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/5/2018 8:05:20 PM

thedoctorking

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This is odd, I had no idea? Has anybody else had this experience?

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 2

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/5/2018 8:11:33 PM

thedoctorking

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Yep, sure enough, in the 1.11.02 changelog: " [445] 41b Sapper Regiment: last year changed from 1945 to 1941, upgrade changed from 0 to [384] 41b Sapper Battalion, element 1 changed from [790] 7.62mm Machine Gun to [1501] Support, element 2 changed from [1501] Support to 0, element number 1 changed from 8 to 24, element number 2 changed from 30 to 0. "

You'd think there would have been some discussion of this. I've been innocently building Sapper Regiments in a 1.11.03 game I'm in.

The change is historically defensible. But the new Sapper Battalions were organized into brigades and further into higher-level formations called Sapper Armies. Would have been nice to simulate these.

(in reply to thedoctorking)

Post #: 3

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/6/2018 6:14:09 AM

Denniss

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These sappers were actually construction engineers and defensive specialists with very limited (if at all) offensive capabilities. Most of them were stationed at the western border and were overrun by the germans, most/all Sapper rgts were disbanded therefore or not recreated after loss. Soviet had to rebuild this organisation from scratch and created offensive sappers by later 1942, somewhat similar in capabilities to the german pioneers. You'll find these in the onmap Assault Engineer Brigades. A welcome side effect is stopping the sapper regiment spam some soviet players liked to operate with.

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Post #: 4

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/6/2018 7:29:12 AM

MarauderPL

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The offensive capabilities are long gone and not in question. Now with regiments gone there is no effective defensive/construction option for the soviets. Construction battalions are too small to be useful, especially with little ways of vetting up their exp and thus construction value. I agree that the old sapper regiments were too good (universal, cheap and easy to manage). Nerfing them to a solely defensive/construction unit is enough, removing them from the game is dubious. Maybe allow construction regiments instead?

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Post #: 5

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/6/2018 8:53:30 AM

chaos45

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The problem you don't see Denniss is that sapper spam was needed to help generate alittle extra CV power in an otherwise super weak 1941 soviet army. So you in effect removed a ton of soviet combat CV without a reduction in combat power on the German side. It was never about the combat engineer capability it was about the slight extra CV generation from 40+ additional infantry(sapper) squads and the additional construction support they give the soviet armies with leader initiative checks to support fort building.

Remember you have to balance the game to make it playable for both sides not just allow german wins. When soviets were to powerful due to, to many men- aka historical replacement rates you nerfed the amount of soviet replacements long ago to make it balanced and give the german player a chance to win. The key word is chance, so if you take away things from one side you need to balance that esp when it is obvious the game is to finely tuned in the Germans favor and has been for at least 12+ months now. I had thought it would be fixed with these recent patches but it is not.

(in reply to MarauderPL)

Post #: 6

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 3:39:34 AM

thedoctorking

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We've had this conversation about the inability of early-war Soviet units to build fortifications, despite the historical testimony to strong Soviet fortification lines in, for example, the defenses of Moscow in December 1941. The Sapper Armies were created to organize construction of field fortifications in the early war, and they were very effective.

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 7

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 7:06:20 AM

morvael

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I think this will be improved in the next version. From what I know Denniss will use the new non-combat engineer ground element type, and will increase the number of those squads in units (so they will be good at digging). And I have discovered yesterday that Soviet digging bonus introduced in 1.08.00 was unintentionally removed in 1.08.05, so it will be back. I'd expect Soviets to be better at digging, less so at fort destruction.

(in reply to thedoctorking)

Post #: 8

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 9:28:10 AM

VigaBrand

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You could get the cv with other support units too, if you really need it.

The last days I had the impression, you didn't know whats changed and cry for your old strategies, which doesn't work with the new changes.

Please don't kill everything because one is crying.

The standard options are with +1 anf full winter, this means, you don't need these little extra cv. The fort constructio is reduced, so you could fortified postion you need forts.

9. In land battles, in which the attacker lost, there will be no morale changes for either attacker or defender.
This helps the soviets, you could now attack with all units without the fear, the germans get extra moral.

12. Soviet units will not suffer extra losses due to damaged equipment being abandoned during failed attacks before September 1941.
This was made and you argument this in the experience thread.
...

Please don't cry for changes if you doesn't realise all the changes in the last patches.

actual:
More experience gain for soviets (huge changed)
sapper regiments (huge change)
easy digging in (huge change)

these helps the soviet side and each alon could change the balance, but all change it massiv.

Please play a actual game against good german player with +1 soviet attack, full winter and random weather.
I don't believe that this is automatic german victory.
And it is nice, that if an unexperience german player meet a veteran, you could play without +1 and mild weather and both players could enjoy a entertaining game.

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Post #: 9

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 9:56:55 AM

chaos45

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Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I�ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it�s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn�t in my opinion. I�m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren�t censored they can speak their mind

(in reply to VigaBrand)

Post #: 10

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 12:45:04 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I�ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it�s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn�t in my opinion. I�m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren�t censored they can speak their mind

The Soviet +1 used to be in the game at the very beginning and was later added as an option. What makes the +1 Attack option bad is during the Winter which makes this rule over the top. IMO make the +1 attack end the last day of Nov. This would round this out rather nicely.

Secondly, the Soviets still take horrid losses. These loses are even accentuated against German PZ and Moto units. Even after the last day of August you will take these losses. Yes these are tied to the experience level of the unit so what I have done now is any unit under 30 exp I limit the TOE down to 50-60% on these low exp units & just accept these loses. The loss rate with higher experience level is a bit better but to have these horrid loses to end of August hurts when it has been said that the Soviets need to attack. I will actually have videos of my turns in the BrianG game so everyone can see the carnage that the Soviets take. I am going to look past these loss numbers to see what it does to the Germans during this game. Hopefully others will be looking too.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 8/7/2018 12:46:00 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 2:17:09 PM

VigaBrand

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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I�ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it�s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn�t in my opinion. I�m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren�t censored they can speak their mind

I'm only afraid, that the next patch will change the balance in to much in favor of the soviets. That means, the patch after that will change it to much in axis favor and so on.
What is with the idea, that the "normal" campagne the soviets get extra manpower/armament to take such losses to gain experience and so on.
Than you need a campagne with more and one with less manpower, so that players with different experience could play interesting games against each other.

The balance issue, I had the problem, that different mind set in options means different wishes of changes.

EDIT: The ski battailon gives you in blizzard nearly 1 cv per battaillon, because the cv is three times as normal in blizzard.

< Message edited by VigaBrand -- 8/7/2018 2:29:48 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 2:43:37 PM

chaos45

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only works in blizzard tho...and you cant build them until basically blizzard which means they are untrained and slagged in 1 battle...thus no CV at all really.

3x ski battalions are almost no CV for a long time till trained....and only marginal CV boost in blizzard due to lack of time to train up the brand new units.

The whole experience problem...�

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Post #: 13

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 2:48:52 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

only works in blizzard tho...and you cant build them until basically blizzard which means they are untrained and slagged in 1 battle...thus no CV at all really.

3x ski battalions are almost no CV for a long time till trained....and only marginal CV boost in blizzard due to lack of time to train up the brand new units.

The whole experience problem...�

I agree with Chaos45 on this. It is pointless to build ski battalions that will take up to 6 months to be even remotely effective in the blizzard. If the Soviet could build them earlier to train up that would be nice. But to buy them right on the precipice of the blizzard to be at 15-20 experience level and gain 1 exp per turn. This is like throwing 12 year old boys into the front line against veterans. The Soviets have NO incentive to build these what-so-ever the first blizzard imo.

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Post #: 14

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 3:13:36 PM

VigaBrand

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this means, if the ski battaillon will be availble to built at the start, this will solve the cv problem, right?

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Post #: 15

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 3:16:01 PM

chaos45

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now if when built these auto had 45-50 exp...as they should as I think they picked from better units...don't think they were all new conscripts.

or maybe just maybe the patch/design team should just remove them as a build option but give the soviet player like 12 trained battalions at the start of winter.....just a thought lol

They were apparently effective in the actual war as the germans then copied it with divisions building ski companies and battalions out of what they scrap together as reserve forces for the winter and as equipment was allowed so think this was more winter 1942 on the northern part of the front.

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Post #: 16

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 3:17:47 PM

chaos45

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it might if T1-2 the soviet player could find the AP to waste on units they wont use till December......as well with the experience gain being fixed they would actually be useful by then

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Post #: 17

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 5:17:01 PM

Stelteck

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Personnally i wonder if there is any use in building any support unit at all (At least until you can add some to increase combat value of cavalry and tank corps), and save the political point to built as much rifle brigade as possible as soon as possible.

Of course you also have to finish each turn with zero political point left in order not to pay "rebuilding unit penalty when you lost a unit" so you may need to buy some support units, but all these support units have so low CV and cause so few looses. Even the good one.

Most are so useless.
- Soviet AA is non existent.
- Soviet AT kill 3/5 tanks but german production is huge so it will not change anything.
- Soviet artillery do little damage with so few number in a support units, only division size artillery unit show a difference. (And you need a lot of them).
- soviet tanks support unit use light tanks and you lack light tanks during the whole war. And they do not do so much damage anyway.
- Sappers were at least usefull for building.
- We do not know if rocket trucks do anything. (And they are really expansive).
- Mortars at least are cheap and have lots of tube which will frighten the ennemy when he analyze the amount of guns in soviet army.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 8/7/2018 5:21:47 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 5:40:29 PM

chaos45

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Stelteck----I would disagree on Soviet artillery SU-- I love them.

As well the PVO AA Regiment is good....100x 76mm aa guns in 1x SU added to a battle is huge.

Now these are true support units tho as you cant attach them to units later....but I still stand by 6x artillery SU and at least 1 AA regiment per army....perfect would prolly be 2 AA regiments with how much better airpower is.

As all units in the command should get those AA guns in support against directed air strikes.....and then if you get lucky the general will send a regiment into the ground battle either adding some heavy ground fire or even more deterrence vs the air.

I also really like the lowly 120mm mortar BN 36 tubes...support sucks tho....but it will be awhile before you get the 120mm mortar regiment with same tubes and like 4x the support. So poor mans cheap AP/extra heavy artillery support. I also recommend 1-2 mortar BN per army.

You want lots of support units to give the general alot of rolls and it allows a rotation of support units in alot of battles.....so if you lose a couple battles and those support units are beat up hopefully more battles against the same army will see the still fresh support units deployed. I know is a penalty for lots but with lots I find I still get several in most battles as long as the general is at least 5 Init and the HQ stationary.

I also like the rocket trucks as they are basically free aside from some AP....so even more artillery that is auto built for free each turn......I recommend building these.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/7/2018 5:42:37 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 7:50:48 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Personnally i wonder if there is any use in building any support unit at all (At least until you can add some to increase combat value of cavalry and tank corps), and save the political point to built as much rifle brigade as possible as soon as possible.

Of course you also have to finish each turn with zero political point left in order not to pay "rebuilding unit penalty when you lost a unit" so you may need to buy some support units, but all these support units have so low CV and cause so few looses. Even the good one.

Most are so useless.
- Soviet AA is non existent.
- Soviet AT kill 3/5 tanks but german production is huge so it will not change anything.
- Soviet artillery do little damage with so few number in a support units, only division size artillery unit show a difference. (And you need a lot of them).
- soviet tanks support unit use light tanks and you lack light tanks during the whole war. And they do not do so much damage anyway.
- Sappers were at least usefull for building.
- We do not know if rocket trucks do anything. (And they are really expansive).
- Mortars at least are cheap and have lots of tube which will frighten the ennemy when he analyze the amount of guns in soviet army.

Stacked AA now is "crazy", putting it nicely. I have been beating this drum and one day it will come to light with others when they figure it out.

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Post #: 20

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 7:53:47 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Personnally i wonder if there is any use in building any support unit at all (At least until you can add some to increase combat value of cavalry and tank corps), and save the political point to built as much rifle brigade as possible as soon as possible.

Of course you also have to finish each turn with zero political point left in order not to pay "rebuilding unit penalty when you lost a unit" so you may need to buy some support units, but all these support units have so low CV and cause so few looses. Even the good one.

Most are so useless.
- Soviet AA is non existent.
- Soviet AT kill 3/5 tanks but german production is huge so it will not change anything.
- Soviet artillery do little damage with so few number in a support units, only division size artillery unit show a difference. (And you need a lot of them).
- soviet tanks support unit use light tanks and you lack light tanks during the whole war. And they do not do so much damage anyway.
- Sappers were at least usefull for building.
- We do not know if rocket trucks do anything. (And they are really expansive).
- Mortars at least are cheap and have lots of tube which will frighten the ennemy when he analyze the amount of guns in soviet army.

Stacked AA now is "crazy", putting it nicely. I have been beating this drum and one day it will come to light with others when they figure it out.

The unit that has me the "most" excited about, and it is not a SU, it is the damn AT brigade. I used them in this latest patch and got pretty darn good results with them. Been experimenting with Rifle division, AT brigade controlled hex with AT brigades in reserve mode. Been pretty interesting. But in 41 they are cost prohibitive too :(

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Post #: 21

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:18:32 PM

xhoel

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As far as I can tell the Soviets take horrible losses either when they are beaten up badly and have to retreat or when they try to attack in 1941 (should be the case as it actually happened).

In my GC against Bitburgerdraft during T8 my offensive in the sector of AGC got held back by the Soviets and I suffered terrible losses, while the Soviets suffered either losses that were on par with mine or even lower losses than mine. And this wasn't from hasty attacks but deliberate attacks, by 2-3 German divisions with SUs in them, after ground bombing the enemy and with ground support on. I call that pretty fair. This divisions got their fortifications up pretty fast too.
Now I'm not an expert German player and I still learn new things everyday but for me and for most of the Axis players that are not masters of the game (which are guys that you don't see doing AARs or guys that are not active on the forums), the game is not unbalanced and the Soviets are not nerfed as its claimed. Hardlucks strategy for defending Pskov seems to work quite well for the Soviets, maybe you could try employing that or find other defensive strategies that prioritize certain sectors (eg Moscow).

There have been a lot of changes that make being the Axis harder than you think. The HQ Build Up that I did last turn cost me 37 APs. I'd say that's quite a price to pay for doing a HQ Build Up, not to mention the changes done that affect attacking regiments, or that failed attacks cause no morale loss on the attackers which means that as the Soviets you can do soaking attacks every turn and will only pay the price in casualties but not in morale. Changes in AA are also quite good for the Soviets since as the Germans you can no longer do whatever you feel like and bombing cities causes more losses than gains.

If the game favors the Germans till '42, in '43 even if you have done everything within your power to maintain a strong Axis force the tide will turn against you and the Soviets have the upper hand (just check Stef78 AAR).

I would advise you to play the game as the Axis and see for yourself that playing as the Germans is not a nice picnic trip but takes a lot of effort to get everything right and if you are facing a good Soviet player, he will make you pay for every mistake.

This is my take on things as I have been following both the AAR between you and Beender and the comments made about Soviets being nerfed.

Cheers,
Xhoel

< Message edited by xhoel -- 8/7/2018 8:20:09 PM >

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(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 22

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:22:22 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

As far as I can tell the Soviets take horrible losses either when they are beaten up badly and have to retreat or when they try to attack in 1941 (should be the case as it actually happened).

In my GC against Bitburgerdraft during T8 my offensive in the sector of AGC got held back by the Soviets and I suffered terrible losses, while the Soviets suffered either losses that were on par with mine or even lower losses than mine. And this wasn't from hasty attacks but deliberate attacks, by 2-3 German divisions with SUs in them, after ground bombing the enemy and with ground support on. I call that pretty fair. This divisions got their fortifications up pretty fast too.
Now I'm not an expert German player and I still learn new things everyday but for me and for most of the Axis players that are not masters of the game (which are guys that you don't see doing AARs or guys that are not active on the forums), the game is not unbalanced and the Soviets are not nerfed as its claimed. Hardlucks strategy for defending Pskov seems to work quite well for the Soviets, maybe you could try employing that or find other defensive strategies that prioritize certain sectors (eg Moscow).

There have been a lot of changes that make being the Axis harder than you think. The HQ Build Up that I did last turn cost me 37 APs. I'd say that's quite a price to pay for doing a HQ Build Up, not to mention the changes done that affect attacking regiments, or that failed attacks cause no morale loss on the attackers which means that as the Soviets you can do soaking attacks every turn and will only pay the price in casualties but not in morale. Changes in AA are also quite good for the Soviets since as the Germans you can no longer do whatever you feel like and bombing cities causes more losses than gains.

If the game favors the Germans till '42, in '43 even if you have done everything within your power to maintain a strong Axis force the tide will turn against you and the Soviets have the upper hand (just check Stef78 AAR).

I would advise you to play the game as the Axis and see for yourself that playing as the Germans is not a nice picnic trip but takes a lot of effort to get everything right and if you are facing a good Soviet player, he will make you pay for every mistake.

This is my take on things as I have been following both the AAR between you and Beender and the comments made about Soviets being nerfed.

Cheers,
Xhoel

This was directed at Chaos45 or me?

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Post #: 23

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:26:45 PM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

As far as I can tell the Soviets take horrible losses either when they are beaten up badly and have to retreat or when they try to attack in 1941 (should be the case as it actually happened).

In my GC against Bitburgerdraft during T8 my offensive in the sector of AGC got held back by the Soviets and I suffered terrible losses, while the Soviets suffered either losses that were on par with mine or even lower losses than mine. And this wasn't from hasty attacks but deliberate attacks, by 2-3 German divisions with SUs in them, after ground bombing the enemy and with ground support on. I call that pretty fair. This divisions got their fortifications up pretty fast too.
Now I'm not an expert German player and I still learn new things everyday but for me and for most of the Axis players that are not masters of the game (which are guys that you don't see doing AARs or guys that are not active on the forums), the game is not unbalanced and the Soviets are not nerfed as its claimed. Hardlucks strategy for defending Pskov seems to work quite well for the Soviets, maybe you could try employing that or find other defensive strategies that prioritize certain sectors (eg Moscow).

There have been a lot of changes that make being the Axis harder than you think. The HQ Build Up that I did last turn cost me 37 APs. I'd say that's quite a price to pay for doing a HQ Build Up, not to mention the changes done that affect attacking regiments, or that failed attacks cause no morale loss on the attackers which means that as the Soviets you can do soaking attacks every turn and will only pay the price in casualties but not in morale. Changes in AA are also quite good for the Soviets since as the Germans you can no longer do whatever you feel like and bombing cities causes more losses than gains.

If the game favors the Germans till '42, in '43 even if you have done everything within your power to maintain a strong Axis force the tide will turn against you and the Soviets have the upper hand (just check Stef78 AAR).

I would advise you to play the game as the Axis and see for yourself that playing as the Germans is not a nice picnic trip but takes a lot of effort to get everything right and if you are facing a good Soviet player, he will make you pay for every mistake.

This is my take on things as I have been following both the AAR between you and Beender and the comments made about Soviets being nerfed.

Cheers,
Xhoel

This was directed at Chaos45 or me?

Chaos45. I wouldn't advise you to use your own strategy, which is quite impressive btw!

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(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 24

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:39:09 PM

VigaBrand

Posts: 303
Joined: 12/19/2014
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Stelteck----I would disagree on Soviet artillery SU-- I love them.

As well the PVO AA Regiment is good....100x 76mm aa guns in 1x SU added to a battle is huge.

Now these are true support units tho as you cant attach them to units later....but I still stand by 6x artillery SU and at least 1 AA regiment per army....perfect would prolly be 2 AA regiments with how much better airpower is.

As all units in the command should get those AA guns in support against directed air strikes.....and then if you get lucky the general will send a regiment into the ground battle either adding some heavy ground fire or even more deterrence vs the air.

I also really like the lowly 120mm mortar BN 36 tubes...support sucks tho....but it will be awhile before you get the 120mm mortar regiment with same tubes and like 4x the support. So poor mans cheap AP/extra heavy artillery support. I also recommend 1-2 mortar BN per army.

You want lots of support units to give the general alot of rolls and it allows a rotation of support units in alot of battles.....so if you lose a couple battles and those support units are beat up hopefully more battles against the same army will see the still fresh support units deployed. I know is a penalty for lots but with lots I find I still get several in most battles as long as the general is at least 5 Init and the HQ stationary.

I also like the rocket trucks as they are basically free aside from some AP....so even more artillery that is auto built for free each turn......I recommend building these.

+1

two years ago I love the sapper regiments. All my cav and tank corps get three of these beasts and the dig in very well, they get extra cv and most important, they reduced axis fortifications in an attack. So there was a no brainer for me, only built sapper regiments. So yes, this was a nerf to the soviets, but now I think new about the SU units in my cav corps.

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(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 25

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:43:39 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

xhoel, yes there are certain things you must do as the Axis to do well.

The comment I will make in reply is most of these things the Soviet player cannot impact really at all, as they all happen about T5 or earlier where the soviet player can do little but put up a delaying action if the German player knows what they are doing.

New German players must understand they must have a perfect Turn 1- easily achievable with practice because the Soviet players gets no influence on T1. Then T2 is even more land grab and destroying soviet units......T3 is re-fuel....T4 the German player should be breaking Soviet delaying actions as the German infantry will now be able to hit the land bridge and Pskov and the super limited amount of soviets cannot stop German infantry and armor.

With a perfect german T1- The soviets options are greatly reduced and again only requires practice on the German players part as they have a resettable sandbox to just keep re-trying until they get it right.

I will tell you a bad German opening is almost an auto soviet win if the soviet player knows the game....a good german opening means as long as the german player manages his rail lines and supply its going to be a tight game if they stay aggressive and shoot for soviet weak points...as the soviets will have weak points for most of the early game with the good opening.

Yes you can HQBU and selectively it greatly assists the German advance esp in the south where the soviets virtually have no chance to defend right now.

I would suggest if you feel bad playing germans, play soviets against a skilled german player and you will quickly see you have very little influence on the game until later turns.

As has been stated the patch team has been told several times by different people about the AA issues im sure its being addressed for next patch its off the charts crazy bonus for both sides vs Air. German AA is even more lethal than soviet.

Is alot of really good German AARs you can look at....Germans are now much faster and soviets much weaker CV wise than many of the older AARs....and in many of these AARs guess what the Germans won....and in many of the currently running AARs the Germans are going to get the win when the game ends....Stef won that game long ago, they are just playing it out.

Also let me caveat---I think balance should be done around no +1 advantage for soviets. With the +1 advantage maybe the soviets are just fine, IDK havent had a german in the last couple months will to give me the soviet +1 lol.....So seems maybe that is to good for soviets? esp as hardluck says in the first winter so no germans want to play with that.

So thats a quick rambling snap shot on balance and how the game should play out...I have little forgiveness for german players doing bad openings, they can practice as much as they want prior to game start......I will give the german player some pointers and tell them to practice more.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 26

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 8:48:38 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

The problem of most support unit (except maybe sapper regiment) is that they are designed to be usefull in combat phase.

Unfortunately, the combat phase is far from being the most important phase of any battle. The most important phase is CV calculation, which is done after the combat phase with the units not disrupted, damaged or destroyed during the combat.
You can have sometimes miraculous and exceptionnels results, but most of the time, the combat phase impact like 2% of the unit, so i'am not s�re it is important to bother with it.

Event for looses, the most important looses are retreat attrition and even frontline normal attrition. I'am not s�re the combat phase change anything.

I'am a little too strong on this opinion here. I noticed that combat phase can have real effect, but you need massive superiority for it.

My guess is that to begin to have a real effect in the result of a battle, you need 3 times the amount of guns than the ennemy. To begin to suppress a a 300 guns german ennemy division, you need 1000. So you need entire artillery divisions for that, and i fear support units that add 24 to 36 guns do not change a lot.

WITE is an awesome games with lots of factors managed, but i hope i'am wrong but i fear that a lots of these factors and parameters are in fact not very usefull and do not change the outcome of the game, and even could be removed from the game without any effect, except for flavor.

I think the combat phase was maybe more important when the game started, but since a lots of hardcoded scripted mecanism have been added, that nerfed this phase a lot.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 8/7/2018 8:51:52 PM >

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 27

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 9:13:21 PM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

xhoel, yes there are certain things you must do as the Axis to do well.

The comment I will make in reply is most of these things the Soviet player cannot impact really at all, as they all happen about T5 or earlier where the soviet player can do little but put up a delaying action if the German player knows what they are doing.

New German players must understand they must have a perfect Turn 1- easily achievable with practice because the Soviet players gets no influence on T1. Then T2 is even more land grab and destroying soviet units......T3 is re-fuel....T4 the German player should be breaking Soviet delaying actions as the German infantry will now be able to hit the land bridge and Pskov and the super limited amount of soviets cannot stop German infantry and armor.

With a perfect german T1- The soviets options are greatly reduced and again only requires practice on the German players part as they have a resettable sandbox to just keep re-trying until they get it right.

I will tell you a bad German opening is almost an auto soviet win if the soviet player knows the game....a good german opening means as long as the german player manages his rail lines and supply its going to be a tight game if they stay aggressive and shoot for soviet weak points...as the soviets will have weak points for most of the early game with the good opening.

Yes you can HQBU and selectively it greatly assists the German advance esp in the south where the soviets virtually have no chance to defend right now.

I would suggest if you feel bad playing germans, play soviets against a skilled german player and you will quickly see you have very little influence on the game until later turns.

As has been stated the patch team has been told several times by different people about the AA issues im sure its being addressed for next patch its off the charts crazy bonus for both sides vs Air. German AA is even more lethal than soviet.

Is alot of really good German AARs you can look at....Germans are now much faster and soviets much weaker CV wise than many of the older AARs....and in many of these AARs guess what the Germans won....and in many of the currently running AARs the Germans are going to get the win when the game ends....Stef won that game long ago, they are just playing it out.

Also let me caveat---I think balance should be done around no +1 advantage for soviets. With the +1 advantage maybe the soviets are just fine, IDK havent had a german in the last couple months will to give me the soviet +1 lol.....So seems maybe that is to good for soviets? esp as hardluck says in the first winter so no germans want to play with that.

So thats a quick rambling snap shot on balance and how the game should play out...I have little forgiveness for german players doing bad openings, they can practice as much as they want prior to game start......I will give the german player some pointers and tell them to practice more.

@Chaos45
It's nice to engage in discussion in a constructive manner about something that we both see differently.

Yeah turn 1 is an advantage to the Germans but that is an advantage that is given to them because of how the actual Barbarossa went down. The game must be able to capture the shock and the power that the Germans unleashed on the Soviet units correctly and turn 1 allows players a couple of choices as to where they send some of their PzGroups. I don't expect you to forgive a German player that makes a terrible T1, and most expert German players have done T1 so much that they will rarely give you a chance to break a pocket or do anything that would hurt them.

Is turn 1 what decides who wins or not? I don't think so, or at least my experience is not that. I messed up one of my T1 in the GC and 2 out of 3 pockets got broken. In the end around T11 my opponent gave up after his whole Southwestern front got surrounded on the Dnepr.

On the matters of the HQ Build Up, yes it does help the Germans but its costs are so high now that you cannot spam HQ Build Up and therefore are not able to do what you could have done in older patches.

I agree with you on the AA. I feel it is a bit overpowered in this patch but I have not seen German AA show amazing results even though I have SP Flak Battalions attached to armored formations and LW Mixed Flak Battalions in Panzer HQs the results have been meager. Even if the German AA is more lethal than the Soviet one as you stated, I still think that it is quite a help to the Soviets as it curtails what the Germans can and cannot do in the Air. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

I think BrianG AAR is a perfect example of a Soviet win in 1942 even. Check topeversts AAR too where he is doing quite well as the Soviets. Stef has won the game already I know, but still to make so many mistakes as the Soviets and still be able to reach Prussia is quite something. I did play the Soviets in the Leningrad scenario and was able to pull of a minor victory. Have not had time to go into the GC so I cannot say, but from what I have seen as the Axis, the Soviets have no problem getting fortifications up.

You didn't adress the points I made about the case in my AAR where the Soviets are doing quite well in the center so far though.

Something else I would like to add: The Germans will have supply problems in the South because the Romanian FBD is complete **** and only repairs 2 hexes a week while the German one can repair 4. So the further you advance, the less MPs you will have for the Panzers, not to mention that you have the Dnepr to cross.

I agree on the +1 though. I would LOVE to see Soviets be much more aggressive in summer but like Hardluck says when winter comes +1 simply makes it too easy for the Soviets. Maybe a middle solution would be to stop the +1 in November on the last snow turn as suggested.

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(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 28

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 9:22:06 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

Didn't brianG's game use +1.....

pretty sure it did. Just checked yep it did.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 29

RE: OCT 41 Sapper nerf in recent patches - 8/7/2018 9:30:26 PM

chaos45

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline

as to center/Moscow around T10 the germans will have to start fighting harder to move on Moscow that's a given....even against beender Ive managed a couple small counterattacks with no +1....and the game is still going I would say badly for me still waiting for return of T9 to see how bad lol.

Also you have to play full GC as the geramn player will often overload AGN, go weaker in the center relying more on infantry...and overload south with panzers.

THe reason the soviets cant defend in the south- is the germans have 2x decent attack routes you must defend against...the coast and Kiev...as a breach at kiev T4 is very good for the germans the coast is almost impossible for the soviets to guard esp since you will lose almost the entire Southern front T2 if done right. Also you must send southern units north to have a chance to hold Leningrad and Moscow....the only thing stopping the germans in the south is supply....and well as you can see Beender seems to have no trouble with supply there, as well Ive had another game awhile back that got as far as fast in the south. So its not an exception it can be done.

When they fix EXP gain...the soviets will have a slighter better chance to at least defend the crimea since the new units wont all be CV 1 for 5+ turns turns. Many german players are like life is so hard on the german side, but when they flip to play a GC as the soviet player against a good german opening their eyes open as to how much is stacked against them.

(in reply to chaos45)

Post #: 30