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RE: Air war in Burma

 
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RE: Air war in Burma - 8/10/2018 9:28:10 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

In attacking the IJ fights over the Allied territory. Without armor and with fragile planes, losing the pre-war 70-80 experience pilots becomes all too regular even with apparent superiority. The Allied pilots, even when shot down, often live to fight another day. While those that are shot down lose experience from being wounded, the group as a whole gains skill and kills. In looking at the CR Sutton thread asking for pilot losses recently Allied players had decidedly fewer pilots lost at ALL stages of the game. One P-38 sweep in late 42 can wipe out half your 'expert' group flying the A6M.


pilots lose experience from being shot down and wounded


If you are relying upon page 14 of that AAR then you are very badly mistaken as to what constitutes evidence for the claim. No dev posted on that page. Nor did any of the then experienced players who had had relevant "off air" feedback from the relevant devs, post on that page.

AARs are particularly prone to the creation of AE urban myths. Devs rarely posted in them and many anecdotal claims are made by individuals who fail to rigorously assess before posting. Far too often the anecdotal "evidence" is quite contaminated by the presence of multi variables which are not properly quarantined in any so called "corobative testing" by the poster. These "testing" posters usually mistake degree of effort with quality of setting up proper test parameters.

There is still no evidence for the claim that pilots shot down lose experience.

Alfred

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 91
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/10/2018 9:41:04 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Well, since I have seen where I had pilots that experience over 80 and I was going to pull them out for Tracom had dropped to under 80, my game must be messed up. I am sure that if someone had a utility that tracked pilot experience, then checked the experience after a pilot was shot down and possible wounded and determined that the experience was lower, then they could reasonable claim that being shot down reduced their experience.

Since you have the code and know exactly what goes on in the game mechanics, whether or not the developers have said anything about it and wanted to keep it a secret, I will now log out and never post on anything again.

Come to think of it, I might just log in to edit all of my posts to state that they were not approved by you.


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 92
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/11/2018 9:13:26 AM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Alfred,

even without need thank you, I feel better doing so - thus many thanks for the cultivation of my paranoia and the helpful remarks .

Hartwig

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 93
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/11/2018 11:32:15 AM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I am a more than a little surprised to see how "huffy" some can get over a simple and concise response from Alfred.
Not only is he revealing how a pilot may lose experience and why he is adding more information for you.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 94
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/11/2018 10:45:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		One last post for my evidence:

1LT Tapner A

He went from 86 experience to 77 experience.
Exp = 86
Air = 71
Defn = 48

From the aoperationsreport for 28 April 1942:

1LT Tapner A. of 34th PS is credited with kill number 16
1LT Tapner A. of 34th PS bails out with WOUNDS but is RESCUED

Still listed as WIA on May 10. Shows up on the squadron pilot list on 11 May 1942 with a 1 day delay.

Exp = 77
Air = 71
Defn = 48

So if he got 1 experience point for the combat or kill to go to 87, then loses 10 points or 10% for being shot down, that would explain the drop.

The reason why I noticed is that the 34th PS is in the Philippines with the other squadrons that start there and they are controlling the area over Manila and Clark. They are based in Manila with a current 50% CAP, altitude of 20,000 feet and a range of 2. When those squadrons disband, those top pilots are going to be trainers.

On May 11, the unit had 189 kills with a total loss of 20 aircraft. 0 Ops, 9 WOff, 10 A2A, 0 Flak, and 1 ground. They are not the best squadron there. The other two squadrons there have shot down 564 aircraft.

More checking with other pilots would be useful if someone were to bother to keep track of such things. The developers may not have told everything about the game otherwise somebody could just take their work and write a new and possibly better program that would also add new things.

********************************************************************

It is easier to prove a positive than a negative. It would be a lot easier to prove that someone went to a store if there were witnesses and/or video there. It is hard to prove something that no one has seen or detected. For instance, prove that someone actually has an organic brain and not an electromechanical device controlling them. Unless someone has actually seen, felt, and/or touched said organic brain, it would be difficult to prove that they have an actual organic brain.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 95
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/11/2018 11:02:56 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		My God! Ranger, what are you doing?

How in the world would you let an 86 experience high A2A skill pilot into combat with a 48 Defense?




(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 96
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/11/2018 11:53:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

My God! Ranger, what are you doing?

How in the world would you let an 86 experience high A2A skill pilot into combat with a 48 Defense?


He started in Manila. The intention was to use the pilots that started there with very few replacements until relief convoys got there. I now have had some convoys come in, bringing in the 18th UK which, with some armor and II Corps assistance, clear out southern Luzon. The 7th Aus with artillery units went into Clark, relieving units there and is grinding down 24 units with two Army HQs, 3 Divs, the 65th brigade and artillery, The two tank regiments are useless. They are surrounded.

So now the plan is to leave those highly trained pilots there until the unit disbands which is soon since it is May 26th. Then those pilots from the disbanded/withdrawn squadrons will go to Tracom/training units. I frequently kill 40+ enemy aircraft for little or no A2A loss. The only carrier from the KB that is left is the Soryu. The Junyo and 4 CVLs are gone along with the Hosho and the Taiyo CVEs. So the best of the naval fighter pilots should be gone or are flown at a distance to attack. Two Oscar I units were over run and 1 Zero unit as well. Airdrops and tank shock attacks. That one turn, 82 Oscar Is were OP losses.

Joe

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 97
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 2:33:02 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

One last post for my evidence:

1LT Tapner A

He went from 86 experience to 77 experience.
Exp = 86
Air = 71
Defn = 48

From the aoperationsreport for 28 April 1942:

1LT Tapner A. of 34th PS is credited with kill number 16
1LT Tapner A. of 34th PS bails out with WOUNDS but is RESCUED

Still listed as WIA on May 10. Shows up on the squadron pilot list on 11 May 1942 with a 1 day delay.

Exp = 77
Air = 71
Defn = 48

So if he got 1 experience point for the combat or kill to go to 87, then loses 10 points or 10% for being shot down, that would explain the drop.

The reason why I noticed is that the 34th PS is in the Philippines with the other squadrons that start there and they are controlling the area over Manila and Clark. They are based in Manila with a current 50% CAP, altitude of 20,000 feet and a range of 2. When those squadrons disband, those top pilots are going to be trainers.

On May 11, the unit had 189 kills with a total loss of 20 aircraft. 0 Ops, 9 WOff, 10 A2A, 0 Flak, and 1 ground. They are not the best squadron there. The other two squadrons there have shot down 564 aircraft.

More checking with other pilots would be useful if someone were to bother to keep track of such things. The developers may not have told everything about the game otherwise somebody could just take their work and write a new and possibly better program that would also add new things.

********************************************************************

It is easier to prove a positive than a negative. It would be a lot easier to prove that someone went to a store if there were witnesses and/or video there. It is hard to prove something that no one has seen or detected. For instance, prove that someone actually has an organic brain and not an electromechanical device controlling them. Unless someone has actually seen, felt, and/or touched said organic brain, it would be difficult to prove that they have an actual organic brain.


Again, I have to ask, did the squadron change aircraft while the sample pilot was in the hospital tent? If so, that would be the explanation for the Exp. drop.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 98
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 2:51:09 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		No upgrades of aircraft for any units in the Philippines, only replacement aircraft. My P-40B squadron is the best with 357 kills while losing 2 Op2, 6 WOff, 11 A2A, and 1 Ground. The best pilot there is T(om?) Jones with 90 Exp, 72 air and 47 Dfen. He only has 23 kills in 143 missions. There are 19 pilots with experience over 80 (81+) in that one unit. It disbands on 1 June so it will only be around for a few more days. If I were to try and replace all of those pilots now, the replacements would barely make it into the squadron before it disbands.

The only change was Lt Tapner having a kill then being shot down.

The easiest way to get lost? Give the butterbar a map!



_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 99
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 3:15:11 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I just trawled through Tracker.

Each of my pilots on the WIA list has suffered an experience hit on the turn they were wounded.

I checked over 50 pilots.

Sounds correct, and IMVHO, quite reasonable that a pilot would lose a bit of "touch" while sitting in hospital.

BUT, I kept checking.

It seems to affect ALMOST all fighter pilots. It affects only a minor portion of other pilot types??????

< Message edited by JeffroK -- 8/12/2018 3:21:13 AM >

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 100
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 4:37:48 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Most of the other pilots would not be recovered over their own base and would probably be MIA for awhile. Those probably lose experience if that is checked as well.

I know from personal experience that laying on a hospital bed for over two weeks, hooked up to IVs, only walking to the toilet and shower, takes a lot out of you. It is a fact (look it up if you want) that not being active for one week costs you 80% of your muscle tone - your fine motor control. Not to mention any physical therapy.

It may just from being wounded or from being shot down. But I only noticed it when my hot pilots suddenly lost a lot of experience.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 101
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 9:11:03 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

My God! Ranger, what are you doing?

How in the world would you let an 86 experience high A2A skill pilot into combat with a 48 Defense?


He started in Manila. The intention was to use the pilots that started there with very few replacements until relief convoys got there. I now have had some convoys come in, bringing in the 18th UK which, with some armor and II Corps assistance, clear out southern Luzon. The 7th Aus with artillery units went into Clark, relieving units there and is grinding down 24 units with two Army HQs, 3 Divs, the 65th brigade and artillery, The two tank regiments are useless. They are surrounded.

So now the plan is to leave those highly trained pilots there until the unit disbands which is soon since it is May 26th. Then those pilots from the disbanded/withdrawn squadrons will go to Tracom/training units. I frequently kill 40+ enemy aircraft for little or no A2A loss. The only carrier from the KB that is left is the Soryu. The Junyo and 4 CVLs are gone along with the Hosho and the Taiyo CVEs. So the best of the naval fighter pilots should be gone or are flown at a distance to attack. Two Oscar I units were over run and 1 Zero unit as well. Airdrops and tank shock attacks. That one turn, 82 Oscar Is were OP losses.

Joe


An 86 experienced Japanese fighter pilot is Royalty. He gets to shake the hand of the emperor and fly on padded cushions.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 102
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/12/2018 9:16:46 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

My God! Ranger, what are you doing?

How in the world would you let an 86 experience high A2A skill pilot into combat with a 48 Defense?


He started in Manila. The intention was to use the pilots that started there with very few replacements until relief convoys got there. I now have had some convoys come in, bringing in the 18th UK which, with some armor and II Corps assistance, clear out southern Luzon. The 7th Aus with artillery units went into Clark, relieving units there and is grinding down 24 units with two Army HQs, 3 Divs, the 65th brigade and artillery, The two tank regiments are useless. They are surrounded.

So now the plan is to leave those highly trained pilots there until the unit disbands which is soon since it is May 26th. Then those pilots from the disbanded/withdrawn squadrons will go to Tracom/training units. I frequently kill 40+ enemy aircraft for little or no A2A loss. The only carrier from the KB that is left is the Soryu. The Junyo and 4 CVLs are gone along with the Hosho and the Taiyo CVEs. So the best of the naval fighter pilots should be gone or are flown at a distance to attack. Two Oscar I units were over run and 1 Zero unit as well. Airdrops and tank shock attacks. That one turn, 82 Oscar Is were OP losses.

Joe


An 86 experienced Japanese fighter pilot is Royalty. He gets to shake the hand of the emperor and fly on padded cushions.

I'm sure he'd prefer half inch of armour plate.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 103
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/13/2018 3:45:00 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		I've noticed this effect as well by checking the top pilots list every once in a while. They will lose about 10 EXP after getting wounded.

Reading accounts from the war it makes sense to have some sort of negative effect. A lot of fighter pilots lost their nerve after being shot down or having one too many close calls. The U.S. system of rotating them back Stateside for training (or war bond) duties made a lot of sense.

Cheers,
CC

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 104
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/13/2018 3:49:21 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

I've noticed this effect as well by checking the top pilots list every once in a while. They will lose about 10 EXP after getting wounded.

Reading accounts from the war it makes sense to have some sort of negative effect. A lot of fighter pilots lost their nerve after being shot down or having one too many close calls. The U.S. system of rotating them back Stateside for training (or war bond) duties made a lot of sense.

Cheers,
CC

And then on the other hand, you have Douglas Bader ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 105
Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/13/2018 8:45:52 AM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

still only snippets of action to report as little is happening on the map. Enemy is in the process of clearing a big minefield near Bataan, to avoid mine hits when shipping his units out of PI and has two roving FT TFs to mop up indefended bases on Celebes & the Moluccas. Naval attack by level bombers from Ambon is (expectedly) ineffective against APDs, enemy is outside DB range. My limited air war is averaging 1.5:1 in my favor, which is acceptable for now, especially as I need the VPs.

Only two aspects may be of sufficient interest to report in detail from the last three turns (April 20-22).

1) As predicted by GetAssista, IJ tried to use (presumably) elite Zeros to get things done in Burma. They do not carry the day. Hurricanes with competent pilots on sweep are capable of doing good work for me. Of course, I am not sure enemy CAP setup was truly optimized.

Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 37,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 39

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 3 destroyed

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1/B with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 23 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes


2) Last turn, IJ tried to break trough my roadblock near Sian. This was the result, which is ok, but the supply (-) for the defenders spells doom in the long run.

Ground combat at 84,42 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 120672 troops, 1120 guns, 694 vehicles, Assault Value = 4316

Defending force 67577 troops, 366 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2213

Japanese adjusted assault: 2081

Allied adjusted defense: 3043

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
10907 casualties reported
Squads: 155 destroyed, 986 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 113 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 73 disabled
Guns lost 74 (5 destroyed, 69 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
5914 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 457 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 83 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 47 disabled
Guns lost 92 (1 destroyed, 91 disabled)

Assaulting units:
54th Infantry Brigade
110th/C Division
68th/A Division
15th Tank Regiment
116th/B Division
13th Ind.Mixed Brigade
116th/A Division
61st Infantry Brigade
68th/B Division
10th Division
110th/B Division
3rd Tank Regiment
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
138th Infantry Regiment
12th/B Division
110th/A Division
116th/C Division
12th/A Division
27th Division
12th/C Division
29th/A Division
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
12th Tank Regiment
29th/B Division
13th Tank Regiment
5th Tank Regiment
29th/C Division
68th/C Division
China Expeditionary Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind. Engineer Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
71st Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps
40th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
7th Chinese Corps
4th Construction Regiment
2nd Group Army
Red Chinese Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
12th Chinese Base Force
Jingcha War Area
14th Group Army
15th Group Army
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment

That's all for now.

From the pilot exp discussion, I learned about a function of the tracker that hitherto was never explored by me. I will check my data as well when I find the time and encourage everyone to do so to improve our data base further.

Hartwig

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 106
RE: Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/13/2018 11:01:06 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

From the pilot exp discussion, I learned about a function of the tracker that hitherto was never explored by me. I will check my data as well when I find the time and encourage everyone to do so to improve our data base further


A suggestion, maybe move this pilot discussion to the main boards so more people might see it, discuss it, post information on it, and maybe even determine just when the experience is lost as well as how much is experience lost. Is it lost only by combat action, ops crashes, or unknown to us users? If I started a thread, someone may not like my title.

I just got tracker working and it would not go back to the beginning of the game for me. Maybe I can get it to do that but it might have to be running from the beginning of the game. I will leave that for another day.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 8/13/2018 3:18:22 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 107
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/13/2018 11:54:11 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

My God! Ranger, what are you doing?

How in the world would you let an 86 experience high A2A skill pilot into combat with a 48 Defense?





Happens a lot. Pilots with marginal skills thrown into daily CAP duties will increase both Experience and Air skills while almost never advancing Defense skill.

Pilots have to be free to train to raise defense. If forced to fly CAP they will only get defense increases from actual fights while Experience and Air increase by the act of flying the CAP.


If they can never be freed up from the CAP duties, they will never get a chance to make significant increases in Defense.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 108
RE: Air war in Burma - 8/13/2018 10:55:48 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

Being put on the wounded list and then returning back to active duty may be see as being put into a new plane, by the code.

Has anyone seen exp. go UP after being wounded?

Would be informative to have a Court of Inquiry on this matter.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 109
RE: Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/13/2018 11:21:15 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: modrow
2) Last turn, IJ tried to break trough my roadblock near Sian. This was the result, which is ok, but the supply (-) for the defenders spells doom in the long run.

Serves your opponent right for attacking with A/B/C fragments
He's not very experienced, and this also shows in his CAP settings as you correctly noted.
Am still for conserving your scarce fighters for the possible future stand in Burma/India/Aus, but sweeping against suboptimal CAP has its merits too. Morale for one - down with that belief in uber Zero.

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 110
RE: Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/14/2018 12:38:38 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I don't think that the experience goes down when there is a different model plane otherwise pilots in squadrons that up/down grade would take a hit. I think that the pilots take a hit when they would go from fighter to bomber or to patrol or to recon or to transport - changing the mission type (not model) that they are flying.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 111
RE: Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/14/2018 2:18:40 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I don't think that the experience goes down when there is a different model plane otherwise pilots in squadrons that up/down grade would take a hit. I think that the pilots take a hit when they would go from fighter to bomber or to patrol or to recon or to transport - changing the mission type (not model) that they are flying.


Being put on the wounded list and then returning back to active duty may be see as being put into a new plane type, by the code.

Tracker Alerts shows skill increase for most skills, no experience increase, and no decrease in any skill.


< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/14/2018 11:28:56 AM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 112
2nd DA near Sian - 8/14/2018 11:55:37 AM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

another brief update for April 23, 1942; again from the China theatre. IJ pressed on with the attack to bludgeon its way through, possibly incited by the supply (-), and got another 1:2. I think numbers are still ok for me if enemy decides to continue with the attacks. I have very limited possibilities to rotate units out, but will do what I can.

Here’s the result:

Ground combat at 84,42 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 111263 troops, 1117 guns, 696 vehicles, Assault Value = 3430

Defending force 63897 troops, 410 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1747

Japanese adjusted assault: 1049

Allied adjusted defense: 1867

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
10590 casualties reported
Squads: 204 destroyed, 537 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 88 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 47 disabled
Guns lost 85 (7 destroyed, 78 disabled)
Vehicles lost 100 (10 destroyed, 90 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3763 casualties reported
Squads: 92 destroyed, 357 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 25 disabled
Guns lost 62 (3 destroyed, 59 disabled)

In other news – no other news.

Hartwig

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 113
RE: Elite Zero CAP trap & DA near Sian - 8/14/2018 12:08:04 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Serves your opponent right for attacking with A/B/C fragments
He's not very experienced, and this also shows in his CAP settings as you correctly noted.
Am still for conserving your scarce fighters for the possible future stand in Burma/India/Aus, but sweeping against suboptimal CAP has its merits too. Morale for one - down with that belief in uber Zero.


@GetAssista: Thanks for your thoughts.

I hear you with respect to the conservation of airframes. The way to go may also depend on the nature of the future plans. Point here is – Burma is most likely not a theatre where I will switch to an active campaign with boots on the ground soon, so I welcome assets being devoted by enemy to that theatre.

If enemy should chose to go after India, the Indian army is currently not in shape to put up much resistance, so the air assets I require for this case are modest. This is one of the aspects where a change of players shows – various preparation targets have been changed more than once, as a consequence morale and exp of the bulk of assets in India is still mediocre at best. Also, the “tank” units still have no real fighting power. It does not make sense to allow IJ to destroy when it is weak when device upgrades and some time will turn it into a more formidable force.

With respect to the use of fragmented air units I assume this is an expanded carrier unit, eventually the one whose 81 plane sweep did not please NY59giants. As a matter of fact, IIRC the corresponding carrier was reported to have been torpedoed by him, even though it is not on the sunk ships list.

Hartwig

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 114
Ceylon invaded ! - 8/15/2018 1:42:46 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

on April 24, 1942, the major news is that IJ invades Ceylon at Triconmalee with 4 divisions. The coastal fortress does a good job scoring several hits, including some penetrating hits on two CAs and torching another xAK that has fuel loaded. Unloading is not complete, so I hope for some more CD gun hits tomorrow.

This force will take Ceylon, which has been stripped of most assets apart from the three brigades which start there, relatively quickly. I have no meaningful naval assets to interfere with this invasion at hand.

In China, IJ just keeps pushing at the Sian blocking position and got only a 1:3 this time, but IMO the loss ratio is more favorable for IJ this time. Tomorrow, I have about fresh 200 AV entering the hex in combat mode, the following turn about 150. What is starting to show is the loss of firepower (continued high gun disablements) of my stack.

Here are some results in more detail:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 24, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Trincomalee (31,47) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

231 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Shell hits 4
CA Takao
DD Minekaze
DD Fumizuki, Shell hits 1
xAK Ayatosan Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
SC Ch 23
AMC Bankok Maru
DD Yudachi
DD Akikaze

Japanese ground losses:
135 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

CA Atago firing at Trincomalee Fortress
Trincomalee Fortress firing at CA Atago
CA Takao firing at Trincomalee Fortress
Trincomalee Fortress firing at CA Takao
Trincomalee Fortress firing at DD Minekaze
DD Minekaze firing at Trincomalee Fortress
DD Fumizuki firing at Trincomalee Fortress
Trincomalee Fortress firing at DD Fumizuki
6" Mk V/VII Gun Battery engaging xAK Ayatosan Maru at 8,000 yards
CA Takao firing to suppress enemy battery at 8,000 yards
SC Ch 23 fired at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 6,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Trincomalee (31,47)

TF 60 troops unloading over beach at Trincomalee, 31,47

Japanese ground losses:
483 casualties reported
Squads: 25 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)

10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of Southern Army /1
20 troops of a IJA HMG Squad accidentally lost during unload of 38th Div /1
20 troops of a IJA HMG Squad lost overboard during unload of 33rd Div
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 21st Div /1
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 33rd Div /4
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 33rd Div /5
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 38th Div
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 18th Div
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 18th Div /3
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 18th Div /4
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 38th Div /3
75mm T94 Mtn Gun lost overboard during unload of 38th Div /3
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 38th Div /4
Motorized Support lost from landing craft during unload of Southern Army /3
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 38th Div /5
Motorized Support accidentally lost during unload of Southern Army /4
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 21st Div
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 21st Div /5
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 21st Div /5
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 21st Div /6
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 33rd Div /6
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 33rd Div /6
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 18th Div /5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Trincomalee (31,47) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

169 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
CA Takao, Shell hits 12, on fire
DD Akikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Minekaze
DD Fumizuki, Shell hits 4, on fire
SC Ch 23
CA Atago
AMC Bankok Maru
DD Yudachi

Japanese ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Trincomalee Fortress firing at CA Takao
CA Takao firing at Trincomalee Fortress
Trincomalee Fortress firing at DD Akikaze
DD Akikaze firing at Trincomalee Fortress
DD Minekaze firing at 99th Indian Brigade
Trincomalee Fortress firing at DD Fumizuki
SC Ch 23 fired at enemy guns
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 5,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Trincomalee (31,47)

68 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
xAK Atutasan Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Yudachi
DD Akikaze
xAK Ayatosan Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Atago
SC Ch 23
AMC Bankok Maru

Japanese ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

6" Mk V/VII Gun Battery engaging xAK Atutasan Maru at 10,000 yards
DD Akikaze firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
6" Mk V/VII Gun Battery engaging xAK Ayatosan Maru at 10,000 yards
DD Akikaze firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
6" Mk V/VII Gun Battery engaging xAK Ayatosan Maru at 10,000 yards
CA Atago firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
SC Ch 23 fired at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 84,42 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 104548 troops, 1113 guns, 692 vehicles, Assault Value = 2839

Defending force 60331 troops, 400 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1391

Japanese adjusted assault: 644

Allied adjusted defense: 2545

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
6746 casualties reported
Squads: 126 destroyed, 450 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 84 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 61 disabled
Guns lost 46 (3 destroyed, 43 disabled)
Vehicles lost 64 (1 destroyed, 63 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2631 casualties reported
Squads: 22 destroyed, 365 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 37 disabled
Guns lost 72 (5 destroyed, 67 disabled)


Hartwig


< Message edited by modrow -- 8/15/2018 1:46:08 PM >

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 115
RE: Ceylon invaded ! - 8/15/2018 9:24:19 PM   
traskott


Posts: 1546
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline 		sucribed!! how is the state of the defenses at India??

ps: no Hawai attack

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 116
RE: Ceylon invaded ! - 8/16/2018 10:07:11 AM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		@ Traskott,

Welcome to this thread – I am happy about any reader, even though time constraints make this AAR sketchy to say the least.

Re. status of the defense of India:

1) So far, I am not sure that the Colombo invasion is truly a prelude to a full scale India invasion (which is a scenario I would welcome, I believe it is not IJ’s best option). The divisions used for Ceylon are 4 of the supposedly 6 that were used for the conquest of Java. There are about 8 divisions that were used to complete the conquest of the PI, so another large scale operation is still possible. It could also make sense to use it as a speedbump to increase difficulties for Allied to create trouble in Burma (which is probably not strongly garrisoned right now) quickly if the majority of IJ assets is used elsewhere.

2) KB or at least major constituents thereof was/were last seen 4-5 turns ago in the vicinity of northern New Caledonia and I am rather certain it did not pass through Torres strait.

3) The main problem for the defence of India is the current troop quality and equipment (or lack thereof). When I took over, I had to disband one of the divisions to get enough Ind Inf42 squads to be able to start the upgrading sequence instantaneously, which is still not completed for all units, but moving ahead. Resetting preparation targets has interfered with buildup of morale and experience. The “tank” units essentially field the improvised AFV devices, so they have no real combat power. Allowing their (partial) desctruction in combat does not only add to IJ VP balance, but also denies the possibility to change them quickly into units with a punch by device upgrade. So I will try a fighting retreat, paying close attention to prevent critical IJ paradrops, so enemy will have to walk.

4) A secondary problem is that I have hardly any naval assets in the vicinity. Most Allied shipping is on the eastern half of the map. This also causes problems for attempts to cause additional trouble where IJ is not.

5) What is good for Allied in India is that NY59giants has provided infrastructure for providing air support during a fighting retreat.

Hartwig

(in reply to traskott)
Post #: 117
Triconmalee falls - 8/17/2018 6:42:14 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

another brief upgrade, reporting about April 25,1942 - another day of defeat for the Allied.

-as expected, IJ attacks immediately and Triconmalee falls this turn. The Indian Brigade that was stationed there is pushed out of the hex with about 50% loss of fighting power, it will try to reach Colombo. VP ratio is now 2.75:1.

-two British DD were all I could scrape together to try to interfere with IJ operations directly. They run into a big, IMO strangely composed (1 slow BB, 1CA, 8CL, 8DD in one TF) SCTF. 1 of my DDs is lost and second one damaged for no damage to IJN. Also, some kind of mini KB is present to provide air support. I will try again to extract some price tomorrow.

In China, IJ does not continue attacking, but bombards the blocking position south of Sian. But I have a first unit of a consolidated corps that is now sitting on the road, hopefully making resupply for IJA more difficult.

Hartwig


< Message edited by modrow -- 8/17/2018 6:43:41 PM >

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 118
RE: Triconmalee falls - 8/19/2018 12:24:52 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: modrow
Re. status of the defense of India:
...

No problem with falling back in India up to Bombay or even Karachi if Japan goes all out IMO. Main goal there is LCU preservation not allowing any encirclements and troop destruction, while at the same time not leaving any freebies for IJA. Heavy industry is halved when conquered in fighting, but remains as is when an empty base flips.

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 119
Some action... - 8/19/2018 8:57:43 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		The sun was setting in the evening hours of April 26 in the harbor of Colombo, 1942 when Admiral James F Somerville reread one last time what was likely to be his last letter to his family, silently cursing the decision of the Admirality to take away essentially all of the fighting power of his Eastern fleet, both Force A and Force B in preparation for the support of operation Ironclad.

So here he was, having his flag trasferred to CL Colombo as the proud flagship of his squadron - CLs Colombo and Capetown and DD Decoy.

How many times had he pointed out that Ceylon was exposed, that it was a more valuable asset than Madagaskar, but to no avail. Probably all due to the grudge Churchill still held because of Cape Spartivento. Oh, well. Lack of offensive spirit would not be something that would be said about him after tonight any more.

He handed the letter over to a runner. Bring this to the shore, lad. And tell the Captain to weigh anchor and set course to Triconmalee at flank speed.


(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 120
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