Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

So far my experiences with Netplay have been pretty bad. I haven't been able to get past turn 5 of the Global war game yet due to a myriad of bugs. I've had the game since release and the guy I game with (Bloodybill), both of us have pretty much given up trying to do Netplay. I'm not into the solitaire aspect of the game but Bloodybill does like it.


I've been playing WiF from day one and still have the original first version along with 5 and 7. I recently received the Collector's Edition Deluxe a few weeks ago and 3 of us are about to embark on a Global War 39 campaign starting next week.

There are tons of changes to Raw 8, not just in the ruleset, but on the counters and with the map. Personally I think this is the best version yet. I really like what they have done with offensive points and how the oil rules have changed. A lot of changes to minor country order's of battle now with the inclusion of reserve militia units in places like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Iran, Iraq and many others. It's going to be interesting seeing how this new version plays out.

I would agree that it's the best version and changes have been extremely good.

What doesn't mean there are no setbacks as the really stupid sub warfare values, which makes it difficult anytime and impossible after 1941. A real nonsense.

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ORIGINAL: gw15

We are using raw8 in a Vassal game but I'm not playing the Axis.
Paul - are subs way under powered after 41?

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I don't think so. One notable change for the better is subs do not lose a factor each in surface combat. If the ASW values seem high then perhaps the table of their values (see 11.5.10 in the rules) versus the kits used is being interpreted incorrectly. After all, no matter which kits you use, BBs are worth nothing. Also the first version of the rules - since erratisized - had CAs worth 4 each in '43 and thereafter when playing with CLs. This was a typo - they should be 1 each.

Also the criticism may be true if the CL option is used. If you're naval nut and want to play with ALLL! the ships then you may want to use CLs but personally I think the CL option should not be used as it is way too allied-friendly.

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21


I'm using all the options for naval in the game I'm about to start and CoiF option 7 caps light cruiser ASW at 2 each from 41 on. CV's and Ca's remain at 1 each for the war. You also can add in naval factors on planes aboard any carriers and each 5 CP's get 1 ASW factor now.


ASW ships are now integrated into a few convoy chits that now consist of 3 cp's and either a scs or cve group. There's not too many of those though and they don't start coming available until 41.


You can also interdict most subs now with sub-hunter aircraft forcing subs to either stop or fight thru a sea zone. These don't come available until 42 and are few and far between.


From the sub perspective, a single naval move now allows a major power at war to move all his subs from as many ports that he chooses and with the new way of having a land/sea action using offensive points (no more chits) opens up all new kinds of strategies.

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


It's difficult for me to explain why, because the 8.xxx rules are changing all the times and it difficult to be updated.

What I say comes from a recent experience, I just finished a game with 8.107 (?) where I was GE. After '41, the values go insane: 2 each SCS not BB (like in older rulesets), 1 each 5 convoys (way too much for game balance), 1 per CV, 1 per air ot sea factor with the right climate.

When you consider all this in a game, you'll experience how sub warfare is kaputt.

First you have to find the enemy (as always) and the enemy not find you.

Let's say you are in box 2 or 3 depending on the sea you are attacking and then you can have a 0 or -1 because of wheather, plus the number of convoys divided by 5. Let's say you have a 30 - 40% probabilities to find the enemy. The higher boxes escorts may be in box 3 or 4 modified by cliimate. Let's call it a modified 3.

you'd have a 60 or 70% not to find, the convoys but in this case there would be a 30% that the escorts finded you. You also have a 30-40% to find the convoys and then there will be a 30-40% that the enemy finds you.

This means the probabiliy that you¡:

- don't find anything but the upper boxes escorts find you, it is (let's convert the 30-40% into a 35%) : 65%*30% = 19.5%. This is called complete desaster, since it's pretty usual that there is at least one battleship in the upper levels, ans the combat is Surface , no Sub. Plus they have usually a lower surprise roll.

- don't find anything and they don't find you: 65% * 70%= 45.5% You are not f*cked but you spend a/some naval move/s for nothing.

- find them but you are found by upper boxes escorts: 35%*30% = 10.5% Disaster as well, still found by upper escorts including some BB usually with Surprise on their side. And it's a Surface combat, not Subs.

-find the convoys and you are not found. Only favourable scenario: 35% * 70% = 24.5%.

This means 30% (19.55+10.5%) disaster, no conv sunk, several subs damaged or sunk. 45% you activate for nothing. 25% some posibilities at a high cost, see what follows:

Even in this last case (probability under 1:4) if there is any plane (NAV, CV) or several of them (and the weather is not storm or blizzard) you still have to spend some (variable) surprise points to change from Naval air combat. If you don't, it will be air to sea which means you cannot attack convoys. Disastrous, you get hits and do nothing.

If you are lucky enogh to have enough surprise to be able to use surprise to attack convoys in spite of the planes,...

... you still need to use it to avoid complete destruction of your subs: the combat value of the escorts is cumulative and it's not strange to find like 2 or 3 points because of 6+ convoys or 10+ convoys, plus like 6-10 from 4-5 escorts plus possibly one for a CV (maybe light CV), plus planes (CV +NAV).

It means you WILL most probably have a roll for a wolf pack sunk (at least)in exchange for one convoy pack or maybe 1 X + 1D.

Real, Real Nonsense.

Note: BB worth 0 only if using an optional, although in this case I guess you don't get CLs or get fewer.

Note 2: The statistics worsen if there is a plane or CV in the upper level escort and they can fly (climate) by a 10%, affecting the rest of the calculations.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Much of what you say is true, but has always been true since at least RAW7. Nothing new here. However, the latest CE rules have been stable for months now and BBs are not worth any ASW anytime.

Also the stats you give are essentially for always attacking when moving second. There are times to attack and times not to attack.

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ORIGINAL: Grotius

Jose, would you mind if I quote or link your post over in the BoardGameGeek forums? There are a couple guys there (Bruce Jurin, Randy Gabor) who insist that subs are stronger in CE than in RAW7, and I'm curious to see how they'd respond to your post. I'm still learning CE -- I'm in S/O '39 of my first solo Global War -- so I don't know enough to reply myself.

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You can do it freely. I will comment Paul's post later, but basically it's true that most of what I said was there earlier, but it was an unbalanced sub warfare earlier and the small enworsements just made it a little bit worse, which is simply unbearable.

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ORIGINAL: Bibs

How many subs did you build? One of the things I always note is that WIF German players never put the emphasis on the building subs that the Germans really did but expect the same results.

German sub builds
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)

at 20 subs per counter that is 38 subs built between 1942-1944. I have never seen a German player build half that in a WIF game. They are too busy building mech and planes.

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ORIGINAL: Bibs

How many subs did you build? One of the things I always note is that WIF German players never put the emphasis on the building subs that the Germans really did but expect the same results.

German sub builds
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)

at 20 subs per counter that is 38 subs built between 1942-1944. I have never seen a German player build half that in a WIF game. They are too busy building mech and planes.

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Each SUB unit represents 50-60 (SiF option 5: 25-30) submarines.

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

We finished setting up the Global War 39 game for 3 of us, we are starting to roll the dice tomorrow.


To add to the above, there have been several map changes and added rules that affect ship/sub movement.

For instance, no more running French cruisers into the Baltic to disrupt German convoys, at least not as easy as before. The Allies have to control either Oslo, Copenhagen, or Kiel in order to get to the Baltic, so no more freebie sneak attacks.

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4. You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.

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Several militia units have now been added to the game too, Denmark gets one as soon as war is declared, so unless the Germans get that unit knocked out on the attacking impulse, in come the French cruisers. Oh, and unless one of those 3 are allied controlled, no getting the Polish sea units out of the Baltic either.

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You also can't use the English channel unless you control London, not even subs can sneak thru so they have to go around. So until France is taken, sub warfare is limited for the Germans...but then it always has been pretty much for the first 5 or 6 turns and unless the Germans build a decent sub fleet it never will be.

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You can’t move naval units between the North Sea and the Bay of Biscay (even via Brest or Plymouth) if a major power you are at war with controls London.

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Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Didn't notice that but I guess you can use Genoa's Major port or minors in Corsica (early navals could only disrupt the subs in minor ports most of the times, supposing they have the range to reach).

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Ships in Flames now incorporates the CliF and Convoy in Flames, so playing with that ruleset makes 3 convoys equal to one ship point. So when a ship gets destroyed, there goes 3 convoy points. So a strong sub wolfpack (say 5 or 6 good subs) could devastate a convoy, it's just choosing to build it which most folks really don't.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Much of what you say is true, but has always been true since at least RAW7. Nothing new here. However, the latest CE rules have been stable for months now and BBs are not worth any ASW anytime.

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ASW Unit
1 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included prior to 1941
2 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included from Jan/Feb 1941 to Nov/Dec 1942
3 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included from Jan/Feb 1943 onwards
1 every (full) 5 convoy points included
1 each CV included (0 if playing CLiF option 6)
1 each (modified) air-to-sea factor (including those on un-damaged CVs) included during fine, rain or snow

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Also the stats you give are essentially for always attacking when moving second. There are times to attack and times not to attack.

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ORIGINAL: gw15

sub warfare - I'm playing the Allies in a netplay game with Peter. He sent out 6/7 German subs and 2/3 Italians into the Mid Atlantic on the first impulse. First search: Axis 1, Allies 10. Killed like 6 convoys. I contemplated but decided to stay. Axis rolled a 2, allies rolled a 10. More convoys destroyed. I aborted and sent remaining convoys through the faearos gap where he had 1 sub in the 2 box in rain. Axis rolled a 1, Allies rolled a 9. Lost more convoys. Then in the regular search in Faroes the Axis rolled another 1 and allies rolled an 8.
14 Allied convoys sunk disrupting the whole supply chain to British Is.

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I'm used to playing with the Mwif ruleset over the last few years and I thought it was based on Raw 7. Evidently not from what you indicate above.

It is pretty easy in MWiF to send a few French cruisers into the Baltic on impulse 2 of turn 1, I've done it several times. Sure they eventually die, but if you do it right they can be a major pain for a couple turns forcing the Germans to react to you. You can't do that at all now unless the allies control Copenhagen. Also I've been able to move German subs into BoB thru the channel. I've done it as has my opponent.

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As far as those new militias..yep, they are reserve units and they are present even in many of the minor countries now. Poland gets 2, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, and Norway each get 1 just to name a few.

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As for Italy, as I mentioned there are NO Italian Major ports in the western Med nor Eastern med. There are a couple minor ports in Sicily, one in each of those sea zones that could be used but they are easily bombed from Malta.

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The German player can now select a naval and a land action using a few offensive points and move all of his subs to sea without impacting his plans on land. Being able to buy 5 offensive points at a time rather than 15 in the old chit type no longer breaks the bank either. All kinds of new possibilities with this new system.

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ORIGINAL: gw15

sub warfare - I'm playing the Allies in a netplay game with Peter. He sent out 6/7 German subs and 2/3 Italians into the Mid Atlantic on the first impulse. First search: Axis 1, Allies 10. Killed like 6 convoys. I contemplated but decided to stay. Axis rolled a 2, allies rolled a 10. More convoys destroyed. I aborted and sent remaining convoys through the faearos gap where he had 1 sub in the 2 box in rain. Axis rolled a 1, Allies rolled a 9. Lost more convoys. Then in the regular search in Faroes the Axis rolled another 1 and allies rolled an 8.
14 Allied convoys sunk disrupting the whole supply chain to British Is.

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19.4 Minor country units
19.4.1. Setting up

When a minor country not currently aligned to any major power
aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up
in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s
initial units must set up in its home country.

Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units (PiF option 4: including
any Planes in Flames units) that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the
current year on its back put it (PiF option 46: and its pilot) on the production
circle to arrive as a reinforcement next turn. For setting up reserves see 9.7.

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9.7 Calling out the reserves

Each major power and many minor countries have reserve units that
may now be called out provided they are at war with a major power.
During your impulse you may call out reserves of such major powers
and minor countries you control that have ‘Res’ on the back of their
counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its
back, you may only call it out while you are at war with that major
power.

Example: It’s Anna’s impulse. She may now call out her Moscow
MIL provided the USSR and Germany (‘Ge’) are at war.

You don’t have to call out all eligible reserves at your first
opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war
with a major power.

When you call out your reserves put your eligible reserve (and any MIL,
see 13.7.7) units that have previously been removed from the game back
into your force pools. Then move your eligible reserve units (and any MIL
there) from the reserve pool to the map (DiF option 52: except Guards
Banner units, see 22.4). in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2)
except that they are set up face-down. From now on treat these reserves just
like any other units.

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To Jose's point, early there are minor country CPs to take the place of any sunk CPs. But add in all the losses, and the need to convoy lent US resources and BPs to both GB and SU, and pretty soon GB will need to build CPs. How many is enough? I don't know. What does the group think?

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med.

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Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

I wonder how many unexploded ordinance I'll stumble into, buried in the new rulebook, once we start to play.

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Side note: on BGG someone posted a version of the rulebook which omits all the optional rules - even the holy cows (ships in flames, mechanised movement, oil etc.). Basically, you play "more vanilla than the vanilla". I'm curious to play such a game because, IMHO, it will then give more context to each optional rule when you decide to use it.

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ORIGINAL: JagWars

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.