RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/14/2018 6:53:40 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I'll convert 3 back to the NE Turbojet

Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.

Fair enough. Maybe I'll get to see how they work before my first PBEM.

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Post #: 3841

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/14/2018 7:14:16 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Ha-43 is going to have a fairly high late war demand. Could there be another late war model that changes to it? Or maybe its some other aircraft that I want in pretty good numbers that uses it. I forget. Anyway...

Remember in '44 you'll need lots of fighters. IRL Japan produced some 13000+ plus that year... And she lost!!!

Here's what I see using the Ha-43:

A7M2 Sam
A7M3-J Sam
J7W1 Shinden
N1K5-J George
Ki-74-I Patsy
Ki-83
Ki-95

The last 3 are all 2 engine.

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Post #: 3842

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/14/2018 8:09:13 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I'll convert 3 back to the NE Turbojet

Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.

I had 2 factories for the Ki-201 and will be getting it sometime in mid-1945 at latest... I think. With 6, you might get it earlier? I'm surprised you won't have the engine sooner however...

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Post #: 3843

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/14/2018 8:54:32 PM

rustysi

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quote:

J7W1 Shinden

quote:

Ki-83

These are probably what I was thinking of...

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Post #: 3844

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/14/2018 9:25:13 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I'll convert 3 back to the NE Turbojet

Not bothering with the Japanese jets. Did you see its SR rating. A 4. I don't even know if I'll be able to keep those SR3 aircraft in the air, let alone a 4.

I made that decision YEARS ago. I have 6 R&D factories working on the Ki-201. They're at 18, 15, 14, 10, 8 and 3 of 30. No way I'm changing that decision. I expect to get the NE Turbojet 2/45. No estimate on the Ki-201, but it is advancing.

I had 2 factories for the Ki-201 and will be getting it sometime in mid-1945 at latest... I think. With 6, you might get it earlier? I'm surprised you won't have the engine sooner however...

Because of my royal engine R&D foul up, I have 4 remaining and they're all on the Ha-43 (switched over a few game months ago). In May 44, I'll convert 3x30 to NE Turbojet so it'll start up again in June 44. Right now NE Turbojet is at October 45 and will accelerate to February 45.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 9/14/2018 9:26:16 PM >

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Post #: 3845

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/15/2018 12:49:39 AM

Zorch

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Do you have a tickler list of things to do different next time, such as engine R&D and getting ships with Type 2 depth charges on escort ASAP?

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Post #: 3846

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/15/2018 12:55:49 AM

mind_messing

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I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

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Post #: 3847

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/17/2018 10:32:49 PM

rustysi

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quote:

quote:

What are your Ki-115 R&D factories looking like right now?

I'll have to check, but IIRC one is ~20/31. Its an oddball that starts that way. The other is ~10/30. I'll get back with the exact amounts.

The exact amounts are 21/31 and 13/30. I'm currently in mid-Feb. '43. I think I said late Feb in another post somewhere, don't know how I messed that one up.

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Post #: 3848

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/18/2018 3:25:07 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

+1

Can never, ever have too many Shindens.

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Post #: 3849

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/18/2018 9:57:25 AM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I wouldn't be afraid to over-estimate your needs for late-war airplanes. Think of what you'd like, then add 50%. They'll be used up in some capacity, and most importantly, the Allies can't bomb your engine and airframe pools.

+1

Can never, ever have too many Shindens.

Guess I need to bump up my airframe & engine production at some point.

Still waiting for a turn...

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/18/2018 12:42:51 PM

PaxMondo

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Well, I crunch the numbers on plane production like this.
Scen 1
End game 9/45 onwards: Allies get ~1000/month top line fighters from production (P51,P47,F4U,Spit,Yak9). They get another 500/month in 2nd line fighters (older p51/p47/p38 types). Double that to account for all the new groups that come in fully stocked. At best, I have to plan for 1.5:1 loss rate. So, 3000 fighters/month losses. Minimum. Assuming I have not let the allies build pools, or that I have built pools to match.

IJ top end fighters are a mix of: Ki84/94, Shinden, A7M, Ki83, Ki201. Assuming 85/15 split between the 1E/2E that means 3450 (let's round it to 3500) 1E equivalents or ~130,000 HI/month. Also means that I had to expend 6M supply to have built the factories.

These are the numbers that haunt all of my early and mid-game plans. Given that the amount of supply and HI that IJ will have between 12/7/41 and 9/1/45 is finite and calculable, if your strategy is to outlast historical IJ efforts and push the game to 46, then the player has to temper their expenditures in the early/mid game (which historically IJ did). Arriving at 6/44 (my target date for keeping DEI whole at a minimum, I need to have 6M supply in the bank just for AC factory builds (less whatever I have already spent on final factories which will be some) and at least 2M HI in the bank with full ARM/VEH pools (minus whatever final engine pools) to be able to build out my AC plan.

That's it in a nutshell.

This is why I have long believed and espoused the Major Solli methods of economic expansion: slowly, carefully, and only the minimum needed. It is so hard not to build 1000/month Ki44 in the mid game and just dominate easily. But if you do, then you are going to have to fight endgame Stangs with Tojos � I prefer Shindens for that, but that's just me.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/18/2018 12:44:22 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/18/2018 4:10:42 PM

mind_messing

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It's also worth paying special attention to the plane types that you get mid-war that you'll be using all the way through to the end. It's worth building a big pool of them early, then rolling back production as you get a large stockpile. There are quite a lot, but it can help to top up the pools early so that production can keep up with losses, and you've a cushion against the bad days where you'll lose 400 or more aircraft in a single day.

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Post #: 3852

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/18/2018 7:33:50 PM

Mike Solli

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Thanks Tony and John, now you got me doing some calculating again.

When does the Tojo become obsolete? I still use them and they are still effective. But, my IJA fighters are mainly the Frank and a few Tony sentai for bomber defense. I'm also building more Nicks too. I'm going to look at the Tojo monthly losses over the past year (yeah, I have all the turns

). I want to try and estimate how many I'll need (including the Helen bomber and transport, which I use) and do a final production run. I have a single size 360 factory for the Ha-34 engine. I'd like to convert it to something else, but it'll take a year to repair.

Right now I have 674 Ha-34s in the pool. I'll bet I can live with that for the war. I'll have to look up my Helen bomber pool. I suspect I have ~100 of them. I will need to reserve some engines for the transport, which is my IJA transport plane. At any rate, I'll pull up the numbers in the pool and go from there. Maybe it's time to phase out Tojo production.

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Post #: 3853

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 12:44:45 AM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks Tony and John, now you got me doing some calculating again. When does the Tojo become obsolete? I still use them and they are still effective. But, my IJA fighters are mainly the Frank and a few Tony sentai for bomber defense. I'm also building more Nicks too. I'm going to look at the Tojo monthly losses over the past year (yeah, I have all the turns ). I want to try and estimate how many I'll need (including the Helen bomber and transport, which I use) and do a final production run. I have a single size 360 factory for the Ha-34 engine. I'd like to convert it to something else, but it'll take a year to repair.

Right now I have 674 Ha-34s in the pool. I'll bet I can live with that for the war. I'll have to look up my Helen bomber pool. I suspect I have ~100 of them. I will need to reserve some engines for the transport, which is my IJA transport plane. At any rate, I'll pull up the numbers in the pool and go from there. Maybe it's time to phase out Tojo production.

You can stretch the Tojo in to 1944 if it's relegated to second line CAP duties, or China/Manchuria, but my outlook is that they should be gone in favor of the Frank by 7/43. This gets the Tojo out of the field before the Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts start to appear, and the Tojo just can't compete.

I checked the aircraft comparisons in tracker, and the Tojo IIc model compares reasonably well to Soviet fighters, so if the Manchurian air force is still using Nates before August '45, give them the Tojo's that you're stuck with.

The Tojo is a common trap for IJ players IMO: it's a great airframe for a decent section of the game, but it's performance goes right off the cliff after the end of 1943.

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Post #: 3854

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 2:30:36 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The Tojo is a common trap for IJ players IMO: it's a great airframe for a decent section of the game, but it's performance goes right off the cliff after the end of 1943.

+1

The issue (IMO) is speed. Once the delta gets to be above 80, the plane is obsolete. So when the +440 allied planes start showing up, the Tojo is just not enough. The extra 20-30 that Frank has is what keeps it competitive.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 3:24:30 AM

Mike Solli

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Well, you guys convinced me. I'm done with the Tojo and producing any more Ha-34 engines. I have 7 1/3 sentai totaling 274 Tojos, mainly in Burma with a few scattered around the rest of the Pacific. There are 207 in the pool. I have 674 Ha-34 engines in the pool, enough for 337 Helen bombers and transports. So, I will figure out what to do with the single size 360 engine factory. I'll convert it before this month is out. That'll be expensive, but necessary. I also have 3 Tojo factories, 1x60 and 2x30. Gotta figure out what to do with them too.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 12:46:05 PM

PaxMondo

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Hate the factory changes, but there are some that are just inevitable; Tojo is one of them. Pretty hard NOT to build it because so strong mid-game, but it cannot last into the end game very well. The only away around it is to commit to the Frank early and BIG. But that means living with the Oscar (yuck!) for 12 months � a very, very long time. To compensate, you can go big on the George/Jack (pick one) so that you have at least one competitive fighter in early '43. You are still stuck with the Oscar, but have something to fall back on. George/Jack unlike Tojo are still useful in the end game. They are NOT premium fighters, but are still effective. Still, Sam is your main objective for IJN � you just gotta have it ASAP. Going all in on it, you can get it in '44 � but you have to go all in to do that. Means a lot of pain in the early years �

Good Luck!

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 5:29:55 PM

Lokasenna

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I re-activated the Tojo after the Tony was performing poorly, particularly against bombers. Not what I expected given the relative strengths of the airframes, but the Tojo is just a better CAP plane even if the Tony is slightly better overall. Even in late 1944. You basically have to choose between the two and they're both mediocre.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 7:29:30 PM

rustysi

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What about the SR ratings? Don't I need some SR1 planes to help out. If not how do I keep all those high SR rated planes in the fight? I mean I have a few ideas, but no experience as yet. One of the reasons I'm continuing my current AI game.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 7:32:38 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Well, I crunch the numbers on plane production like this.
Scen 1
End game 9/45 onwards: Allies get ~1000/month top line fighters from production (P51,P47,F4U,Spit,Yak9). They get another 500/month in 2nd line fighters (older p51/p47/p38 types). Double that to account for all the new groups that come in fully stocked. At best, I have to plan for 1.5:1 loss rate. So, 3000 fighters/month losses. Minimum. Assuming I have not let the allies build pools, or that I have built pools to match.

IJ top end fighters are a mix of: Ki84/94, Shinden, A7M, Ki83, Ki201. Assuming 85/15 split between the 1E/2E that means 3450 (let's round it to 3500) 1E equivalents or ~130,000 HI/month. Also means that I had to expend 6M supply to have built the factories.

These are the numbers that haunt all of my early and mid-game plans. Given that the amount of supply and HI that IJ will have between 12/7/41 and 9/1/45 is finite and calculable, if your strategy is to outlast historical IJ efforts and push the game to 46, then the player has to temper their expenditures in the early/mid game (which historically IJ did). Arriving at 6/44 (my target date for keeping DEI whole at a minimum, I need to have 6M supply in the bank just for AC factory builds (less whatever I have already spent on final factories which will be some) and at least 2M HI in the bank with full ARM/VEH pools (minus whatever final engine pools) to be able to build out my AC plan.

That's it in a nutshell.

This is why I have long believed and espoused the Major Solli methods of economic expansion: slowly, carefully, and only the minimum needed. It is so hard not to build 1000/month Ki44 in the mid game and just dominate easily. But if you do, then you are going to have to fight endgame Stangs with Tojos � I prefer Shindens for that, but that's just me.

I mean the whole thing... The whole thing. Mind boggling, how in the H$ll do I do that.

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Post #: 3860

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 7:33:38 PM

rustysi

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quote:

So, 3000 fighters/month losses. Minimum.

Sure, like its nothing....

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 7:36:28 PM

rustysi

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quote:

IJ top end fighters are a mix of: Ki84/94, Shinden, A7M, Ki83, Ki201. Assuming 85/15 split between the 1E/2E that means 3450 (let's round it to 3500) 1E equivalents or ~130,000 HI/month.

OK, I should be good here, with the exception of the Ki-201. Not going for it. That should leave the Ki-83 as the only twin engine plane.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 7:56:07 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

What about the SR ratings? Don't I need some SR1 planes to help out. If not how do I keep all those high SR rated planes in the fight? I mean I have a few ideas, but no experience as yet. One of the reasons I'm continuing my current AI game.

That's what I mean by you really have to choose between Tojo and Tony, and neither are very good later on. They're not completely awful, they just aren't very good.

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Post #: 3863

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:02:11 PM

rustysi

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quote:

and at least 2M HI in the bank

It'll be tough, but I should make it. Got about 900k in Feb. '43 and rising well.

quote:

Also means that I had to expend 6M supply to have built the factories.

If you're including the R&D investment, I'm well on my way. I have about 3.5M in the bank right now, and rising slowly. That should change soon as I, at least, am dealing with my early '43 aircraft increases. At least for me I've gotten a bunch of 'new' aircraft to play with. Production went from 10-12/day to about 20-23/day with the new 'toys'.

quote:

It is so hard not to build 1000/month Ki44 in the mid game and just dominate easily.

Not even close. I just started getting the 'c' a couple of months ago and am building 'up' to five/day right now. The 'a' production was a mere three/day. Now in a PBEM its probable I'd need some more if the tempo demanded it, but I try to only produce the bare minimum to 'get by'.

quote:

with full ARM/VEH pools

Not sure how much is enough here. I'm approaching 200k in the ARM pool, but I've shut off a few. Producing ~400/day now, although that might be a mistake. VEH pool is ~38k with full production expanded over time to 250/day. All three divisions and most regiments have the Type-1 tank at the moment. A few in China and Manchukuo still have lesser models.

quote:

I prefer Shindens for that

I've had five R&D sites working from day one. All will likely go straight to production. Of course they still have a long way to complete their research. Is that enough?

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:08:50 PM

rustysi

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quote:

So, I will figure out what to do with the single size 360 engine factory. I'll convert it before this month is out. That'll be expensive, but necessary.

Over time, and you might not have to repair the whole thing. I did mine a different way. I have three totaling 10 engines/day. I wanted the build-up to be quicker to get the engine bonus early. It'll be easier to get rid of what I don't need. I still have ~830 engines in the bank, but I'm in Feb'43. That's down from over a thousand, but I figured with the expenditure for the bonus it would drop as it has. Same with me for the Ha-35.

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Post #: 3865

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:11:27 PM

rustysi

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quote:

I re-activated the Tojo after the Tony was performing poorly, particularly against bombers.

Sorry to hear that, I always thought the two were about the same. Only reason I chose the Tojo was that I could get it first.

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Post #: 3866

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:22:14 PM

rustysi

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quote:

enough for 337 Helen bombers and transports.

I've produced few Army bombers to date, feeling I wanted more of the Helen-IIb. I've only got them a month or two. Only produced a few IIa's. So now I'm moving to catch up mode on them.

Don't know how many you've in the field, but 300+ may bit a bit short, given that the transport model will more likely be your only Army transport. From my experience transports are difficult to get to high experience levels and subsequently take fairly high op losses, WRT to other plane types. So it might be better to have a few more than you think to be safe. Just a thought.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:31:24 PM

rustysi

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quote:

you can go big on the George/Jack (pick one) so that you have at least one competitive fighter in early '43.

I wouldn't say I went 'big' on the George, unless you consider six R&D sites 'big'. I'll get it toward the end of March, which I thought was 'just in time' for the plane. Production will be somewhat low at first, 'til I get the later models.

I do have the Jack working too, but at a much lower rate. Two R&D, one of which just hit 30. The other has about four to go. I'll build some. It was a 'just in case' decision when I started the game. I do like its climb rate. I figure with the engine bonus I'll get it around June.

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Post #: 3868

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:33:20 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

What about the SR ratings? Don't I need some SR1 planes to help out. If not how do I keep all those high SR rated planes in the fight? I mean I have a few ideas, but no experience as yet. One of the reasons I'm continuing my current AI game.

That's what I mean by you really have to choose between Tojo and Tony, and neither are very good later on. They're not completely awful, they just aren't very good.

Thanks Loka.

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Post #: 3869

RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 9/19/2018 8:44:23 PM

rustysi

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quote:

but my outlook is that they should be gone in favor of the Frank by 7/43

7/43???? Oh, I hope I haven't screwed up here, I won't have the Frank that early. I've got one factory to 30 and another close. The oddball (55 IIRC) is repairing well, but it'll be some time before its finished. The other three R&D I have working I brought in a while later, and they've a way to go. I have the engine bonus to move things along, but... I'm thinking I'll get it the end of '43 beginning '44. Was looking for the George to carry me to that point. I know it may put a bit of a strain on my IJN fighter pilots, but to date I've kept them out of the fight as much as possible. I think I've only one front-line right now in the Solomon's. I've got the Army doing most of the job.

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(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 3870

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