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Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 3:19:05 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
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Where does this number (5971) of pilots come from? How to reduce this number?
What happens if I do not have enough HI points?

Post #: 1

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 4:31:25 PM

Rafid

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/24/2015
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This is the total number pilots currently (off map) in the replacement pilot pipeline. Since this pipeline takes 12 month it is roughly 12 times the replacement pilot rate (sum of IJN+IJA). This is fixed for the scenario (but depends on the current year) and can't be influenced by the player in game. You could in theory empty your replacement pilot pool and if you then continue to draw pilots from it, you'll empty the replacement pipeline. The pilots drawn in this way will enter the game with appaling experience levels however.

I don't know what happens if you don't have the necassary HI points.

(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 2

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 4:36:44 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

Your information here is a bit sketchy, but based on your questions I'm assuming you're asking about the once a month HI expenditure for pilot training. Is that true?

OK, if so...

quote:

Where does this number (5971) of pilots come from?

I would double check, but I think it comes from the aggregate of the pilots in the training pools. Those in the 1-12 month training cycle. Although it could be their Training cost. At any rate add all those pilots together and multiply by 5. That's their cost, 5 HI/month while in the initial training cycle.

quote:

How to reduce this number?

IIRC you'd first have to drain all those that have 'graduated' their 'basic' training then you could start to drain the 1-12 month pools. This though would not be easy to do and you would have a huge surplus of untrained pilots in your units. These would have to then get some training and that would cost you pretty large amounts of supply. Supply that is better used elsewhere.

quote:

What happens if I do not have enough HI points?

Don't know, never had it happen. The above cost is a once a month cost. Don't know how you wouldn't have enough HI, unless it was very late in the game. If its early in the game you've probably done something seriously wrong.

It would be helpful if you could give us some more info.

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(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 3

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 5:09:16 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

Your information here is a bit sketchy, but based on your questions I'm assuming you're asking about the once a month HI expenditure for pilot training. Is that true?

Yes. I'm worried about very high HI cost. I don't have so many HI points now.

I'm playing for first time in Mod BtS. There are many different factories in it, more than in stock scenario. I did not take this into account and I see that an industrial catastrophe is waiting for me. Without HI Points everything will stop. Even if I turn off all factories, I still don't have enough HI points.

I can give you any information. What are you interested?

I just don.t understand (I donэt see) where this figure comes from. There is much less in pool.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 4

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 5:22:15 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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I believe that the number that you've circled is the number of 'graduated' pilots in your pools that you've pulled out of the 1-12 month training program. You've pulled quite a number of IJN semi-trained pilots into your on-map units over the month of December (1662-593). Lesser amounts of IJA pilots have been graduated, pulled into on-map units and remain as reserves (2197-2028).

It is my understanding that you pay the HI costs on the pilots in your training schools. These pilots correspond to the numbers underneath the 1-3; 4-6; 7-9 and 10-12 brackets. For example, on 12/31 you had 922+870+893+924 (3609) pilots in your IJN schools from months 1-12, inclusive. IJA schools had 618+573+581+590 (2362). 3609+2362=5971. You will pay the aforementioned x5 HI cost / pilot as the month turns over.

I've no idea how the different mods handle pilot training costs, so can't be sure if your game changes this formula at all. For those scenarios (e.g., sc. 2 v. sc. 1 stock) that have larger pilot training pools, it's a double-edged sword. Better quality pilots, but the ongoing HI burden is oppressive. In later sc. 2 games, for example, it's not uncommon to be forking over 40,000 HI points per month for pilot training. Better bank HI accordingly.

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Post #: 5

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 5:25:06 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

Now I understand everything. If you add all monthly numbers of pilots, top is radiated this figure - 5971.

(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 6

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 5:45:58 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

I'm playing for first time in Mod BtS.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with any of the Mods.

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Post #: 7

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/27/2018 9:17:55 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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Yes, it is the sum of the pilots in school - not in the replacement pools.

If you want to reduce the HI cost, you should pull all your replacement pilots and then do it some more to pull them from the schools instead.

There's actually no reason why you shouldn't pull all of your replacement pilots ASAP, as the average XP of the replacement pilots only deteriorates as the war goes on. The pilot is not generated ("spawned") until pulled from the replacement pool, so there's no point in "saving" them in there. You should pull them out and place them in the pilot reserves immediately, in 1941, when the average XP is higher.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 8

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/28/2018 7:44:43 PM

AW1Steve

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Of course losses in real life training exercises are higher than the game! The real commands didn't set their range at "0".

But how do you compare "3 a day in Tampa bay" with anything any competent player in this game would do? The air forces in ww2 committed horrible wastage of trainees and airplanes in trying to force so many people through training at once. You couldn't possibly do that in most countries today. And our collective mind sets echo that concept.

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Post #: 9

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 9/28/2018 8:52:14 PM

rustysi

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quote:

The air forces in ww2 committed horrible wastage of trainees and airplanes

IIRC more than were lost in actual air-to-air combat.

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Post #: 10

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/1/2018 8:57:11 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Yes, it is the sum of the pilots in school - not in the replacement pools.

If you want to reduce the HI cost, you should pull all your replacement pilots and then do it some more to pull them from the schools instead.

There's actually no reason why you shouldn't pull all of your replacement pilots ASAP, as the average XP of the replacement pilots only deteriorates as the war goes on. The pilot is not generated ("spawned") until pulled from the replacement pool, so there's no point in "saving" them in there. You should pull them out and place them in the pilot reserves immediately, in 1941, when the average XP is higher.

After the first 500 or so pilots will come with xp lower than what you would have on graduation in 42. Also, you don't have nearly enough airgroups to train this mass of pilots on map. Better let them get to their 40+ xp/skill offmap. HI is usually not the bottleneck for Japan anyway.

Goes without saying that starting from somewhere in later 44 it is indeed time to empty the schools and keep doing that each month after that. I wish there was a switch in the game to tell pilot schools to stop enrolling new trainees

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 10/1/2018 8:58:52 PM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 11

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/1/2018 9:01:09 PM

Lokasenna

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You can see a really stark example in the screenshot posted by the OP (well, it's broken now, but he did have a screenshot showing the arrival XP/skills for navy/army being in the 50s/40s).

If you pull every replacement pilot in December 1941, they will have 55 average XP. If you wait until January, it drops into the 40s.

I'm not talking about the schools at that point, the ones that actually cost HI. Just those already graduated to the replacement pool.

The top level of the pilot school, after the average XP from replacements drops into the mid-30s, are actually possibly better to be drawn directly into training units anyway - there seems to be a maximum total XP/skill threshold for pilots, so the lower the non-useful skills for a certain type of pilot (e.g., fighter pilots don't need NavT in the 30s or even 20s) then the faster his other skills will reach high levels or the higher his other skills will be able to go before they reach that "soft cap." That's just conjecture on my part, but it's not without some evidence.

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 12

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/8/2018 11:12:27 AM

Edward75

Posts: 194
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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
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Incomprehensible situation!
I had at end of month (31.12.41) Production / Total 7440 (14,680) HI Points
Average consumption per day 1000+ HI points. Pilot Training Cost was to subtract 29855 HI Points, and I had to stay with a big minus or stopped in production or get a fine in Pilot Training.
BUT, next day (01.01.1942) I had 7,494 HI Points in pool. Why so much and how to find out expense. Where to find it in tracker?

In Operation Reports I have message only: Accelerated training for 181 IJ Army pilots from month-cycle 10
What does this mean? Good or bad for me?
How to find out what HI Points are spent? I need more information!

< Message edited by Edward75 -- 10/8/2018 11:45:59 AM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 13

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/8/2018 2:04:55 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can see a really stark example in the screenshot posted by the OP (well, it's broken now, but he did have a screenshot showing the arrival XP/skills for navy/army being in the 50s/40s).

If you pull every replacement pilot in December 1941, they will have 55 average XP. If you wait until January, it drops into the 40s.

I'm not talking about the schools at that point, the ones that actually cost HI. Just those already graduated to the replacement pool.

The top level of the pilot school, after the average XP from replacements drops into the mid-30s, are actually possibly better to be drawn directly into training units anyway - there seems to be a maximum total XP/skill threshold for pilots, so the lower the non-useful skills for a certain type of pilot (e.g., fighter pilots don't need NavT in the 30s or even 20s) then the faster his other skills will reach high levels or the higher his other skills will be able to go before they reach that "soft cap." That's just conjecture on my part, but it's not without some evidence.

I will neither confirm nor deny your conjecture is correct. But I will confirm that there is some evidence to support your conjecture.

The overall pilot training program is much more complicated than those who have run very flawed tests understand. Doing what you suggest will not guarantee that your intended outcome will be achieved but that particular course of action will not create obstacles in achieving your intended outcome.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 14

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/8/2018 2:09:54 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edward75

Incomprehensible situation!
I had at end of month (31.12.41) Production / Total 7440 (14,680) HI Points
Average consumption per day 1000+ HI points. Pilot Training Cost was to subtract 29855 HI Points, and I had to stay with a big minus or stopped in production or get a fine in Pilot Training.
BUT, next day (01.01.1942) I had 7,494 HI Points in pool. Why so much and how to find out expense. Where to find it in tracker?

In Operation Reports I have message only: Accelerated training for 181 IJ Army pilots from month-cycle 10
What does this mean? Good or bad for me?
How to find out what HI Points are spent? I need more information!

You could try reading the many threads which have explained this.

The pilot training tax is 5 Heavy Industry points per pilot in the training school.

When you are told of accelerated pilot training, those pilots have been moved to the next 3 month training period.

Alfred

(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 15

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/9/2018 9:53:48 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

I had at end of month (31.12.41) Production / Total 7440 (14,680) HI Points
Average consumption per day 1000+ HI points. Pilot Training Cost was to subtract 29855 HI Points, and I had to stay with a big minus or stopped in production or get a fine in Pilot Training.
BUT, next day (01.01.1942) I had 7,494 HI Points in pool. Why so much and how to find out expense. Where to find it in tracker?

Not quite sure what went on here. Are you playing a mod of some sort?

quote:

In Operation Reports I have message only: Accelerated training for 181 IJ Army pilots from month-cycle 10
What does this mean? Good or bad for me?

It means that the 181 pilots are advanced more quickly through the training cycle. So instead of sitting in month 10, those pilots will graduate a month earlier, and you save 5 HI per pilot for the one month. So, good for you.

quote:

How to find out what HI Points are spent? I need more information!

There're too many expenditures for me to really go into all of them, but they are in the manual. Another place you can see how HI is spent is at the bottom of the 'Industry Screen'.

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Post #: 16

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 8:08:43 AM

Edward75

Posts: 194
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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

Not quite sure what went on here. Are you playing a mod of some sort?

Yes, I play Between The Storm mod. It's not about mod. I want to understand process of this calculation!

quote:

It means that the 181 pilots are advanced more quickly through the training cycle. So instead of sitting in month 10, those pilots will graduate a month earlier, and you save 5 HI per pilot for the one month. So, good for you.

I got it. Did not understand this much or little? What does it depend on?

< Message edited by Edward75 -- 10/10/2018 8:10:31 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 17

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 9:21:39 AM

Mike Solli

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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edward75

quote:

It means that the 181 pilots are advanced more quickly through the training cycle. So instead of sitting in month 10, those pilots will graduate a month earlier, and you save 5 HI per pilot for the one month. So, good for you.

I got it. Did not understand this much or little? What does it depend on?

It varies, but take what you can get. That pilot acceleration is based on the number of pilots you have in TRACOM. They assist in the training.

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Post #: 18

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 9:39:18 AM

Edward75

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

It varies, but take what you can get. That pilot acceleration is based on the number of pilots you have in TRACOM. They assist in the training.

Is there a difference from which pilots are in TRACOM? That is, pilots, fighters, bombers or Recons? Is there a maximum of pilots in TRACOM after which bonus does not work?

It�s strange that I don�t have Army pilots now, only Navy fews. How is this possible?

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 19

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 2:54:39 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can see a really stark example in the screenshot posted by the OP (well, it's broken now, but he did have a screenshot showing the arrival XP/skills for navy/army being in the 50s/40s).

If you pull every replacement pilot in December 1941, they will have 55 average XP. If you wait until January, it drops into the 40s.

I'm not talking about the schools at that point, the ones that actually cost HI. Just those already graduated to the replacement pool.

The top level of the pilot school, after the average XP from replacements drops into the mid-30s, are actually possibly better to be drawn directly into training units anyway - there seems to be a maximum total XP/skill threshold for pilots, so the lower the non-useful skills for a certain type of pilot (e.g., fighter pilots don't need NavT in the 30s or even 20s) then the faster his other skills will reach high levels or the higher his other skills will be able to go before they reach that "soft cap." That's just conjecture on my part, but it's not without some evidence.

I will neither confirm nor deny your conjecture is correct. But I will confirm that there is some evidence to support your conjecture.

The overall pilot training program is much more complicated than those who have run very flawed tests understand. Doing what you suggest will not guarantee that your intended outcome will be achieved but that particular course of action will not create obstacles in achieving your intended outcome.

Alfred

I would need to do a test to be sure, but such a test would take quite a while to put together and I just don't have the time.

I assume you were referring to the total pilot skill levels hypothesis.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 20

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 2:55:24 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edward75

Incomprehensible situation!
I had at end of month (31.12.41) Production / Total 7440 (14,680) HI Points
Average consumption per day 1000+ HI points. Pilot Training Cost was to subtract 29855 HI Points, and I had to stay with a big minus or stopped in production or get a fine in Pilot Training.
BUT, next day (01.01.1942) I had 7,494 HI Points in pool. Why so much and how to find out expense. Where to find it in tracker?

In Operation Reports I have message only: Accelerated training for 181 IJ Army pilots from month-cycle 10
What does this mean? Good or bad for me?
How to find out what HI Points are spent? I need more information!

You could try reading the many threads which have explained this.

The pilot training tax is 5 Heavy Industry points per pilot in the training school.

When you are told of accelerated pilot training, those pilots have been moved to the next 3 month training period.

Alfred

Which, in essence, means that you have saved 181 * 5 HI because they did "2 months of training in 1 month", basically.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 21

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 2:58:23 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edward75

quote:

It varies, but take what you can get. That pilot acceleration is based on the number of pilots you have in TRACOM. They assist in the training.

Is there a difference from which pilots are in TRACOM? That is, pilots, fighters, bombers or Recons? Is there a maximum of pilots in TRACOM after which bonus does not work?

It�s strange that I don�t have Army pilots now, only Navy fews. How is this possible?

Every 10 pilots you have in TRACOM (of each nation) will help accelerate that nation's pilot training school. For the Allies, this basically doesn't do anything.

For a pilot to be able to be assigned to TRACOM, he must have 80+ Exp. That's it. It doesn't matter whether the pilot is a bomber pilot, fighter pilot, transport pilot, etc., when it comes to the TRACOM function. You could have 50 fighter pilots and 30 bomber pilots in TRACOM, and you would get the same results as if you had 20 fighter pilots, 30 bomber pilots, and 30 recon pilots.

If you previously had army pilots in TRACOM, but don't now, then it means you pulled them out of there (presumably into units). Did you click on "Get new pilot" with the source for that pilot being "Any" (as opposed to "Replacements" or "Reserve")?

You can assign more pilots to TRACOM by clicking on their yellow names in the unit pilots screen.

(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 22

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 4:29:56 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
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quote:

If you previously had army pilots in TRACOM, but don't now,

No, I newer have Army pilots in TRACOM. Only IJN. I only had one month of play.

Is there a difference when I send pilot to TRACOM at beginning of month or at very end?

< Message edited by Edward75 -- 10/10/2018 4:32:18 PM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 23

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/10/2018 11:36:26 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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I'm not sure on that question. I suspect probably not - it is probably just a single check at the end of the month and that's it.

(in reply to Edward75)

Post #: 24

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 1:00:46 PM

Mike Solli

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You did answer a question I have wondered about. You have only IJN TRACOM pilots but IJA pilots accelerated. That tells me they can accelerate either branch of pilots.

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Post #: 25

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 2:43:13 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

That tells me they can accelerate either branch of pilots.

Fantasy! I adore this game! )))

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Post #: 26

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 4:15:12 PM

BillBrown

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I will have to look, but I am sure I have had pilots accelerated and I have no pilots in TRACOM. I will find one if I can
I think I had some Soviets pilots advance.

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Post #: 27

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 4:24:08 PM

btd64

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I have had Chinese pilots accelerate with no pilots in tracom....GP

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Post #: 28

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 4:44:41 PM

Edward75

Posts: 194
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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
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Maybe then it makes no sense to keep experienced pilots in TRACOM. Where is evidence that they are help training?
I see there are a lot of inconsistencies in game regarding manual. Going to create a topic on this issue!

(in reply to btd64)

Post #: 29

RE: Pilot Training Cost - 10/11/2018 5:19:19 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I will have to look, but I am sure I have had pilots accelerated and I have no pilots in TRACOM. I will find one if I can
I think I had some Soviets pilots advance.

I'd forgotten about this. I think I've had this happen also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edward75

Maybe then it makes no sense to keep experienced pilots in TRACOM. Where is evidence that they are help training?
I see there are a lot of inconsistencies in game regarding manual. Going to create a topic on this issue!

Since it is documented as doing something, I would assume that the effect is either more likely, greater in magnitude, or both if there are pilots in TRACOM.

(in reply to BillBrown)

Post #: 30