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The Sugar war machine - 9/30/2018 11:40:00 AM   
Rannug61


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/14/2018
Status: offline 		Sugar playing style as Axis:

No investment in U-Boat tech until very late

Doesn't do Seelöve unless you send an invitation

Builds all air units and has focus on air tech... even with Italy

Industrial tech is an early focus

Likes to kill enemy air units and HQ's

Starts of very slow and late in Russia

"Never" makes mistakes, doesn't hurry and rarely has any units being killed

Strong focus on Egypt and Iraq/Persia

No Atlantic wall in France

Only builds Anti-air and other special units late

Probably sells tech chits as rockets, artillery and antitank early

Always gets Spain via diplo or DE

Uses his air-force as counter to any early D-Day


What more is typical for the Sugar playing style? Can he be beaten? Ever?

_____________________________

"En svensk tiger"
Post #: 1
RE: The Sugar war machine - 9/30/2018 12:00:00 PM   
Ktonos

 

Posts: 282
Joined: 3/16/2018
Status: offline 		-Micro manages HQ attachments (don't know if this is the norm. At least I find it too tedious)
-Spends like 15%+ of total income to operate HQs and Air around the map where action is the thickest. It's like Luftwaffe is everywhere
-Last calorie burned in every single Axis game is his index finger clicking London while a Para is selected

(in reply to Rannug61)
Post #: 2
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 4:47:20 PM   
GeneralFerraro


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		Dear Commanders, thank you for this fascinating information about the mighty Sugar War Machine! It's always useful to learn from the Master.

A quick question: does the Sugar War Machine invade Greece at all? Or does it rather ignore Greece and go faster for Barbarossa?

By the way, I had a good laugh from the "last calorie" bit!

< Message edited by GeneralFerraro -- 10/1/2018 4:49:14 PM >

(in reply to Ktonos)
Post #: 3
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 5:43:50 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline 		Rannug,
I cannot help but notice that the strategy you lay out here appears to be the exact strategy you are using in your game against me. Comrade Stalin will make you pay for ignoring him!!! I can't believe that I have gotten through the first whole campaign season without a single point of damage to my core units. On the other hand, you would never have taken Cairo if you hadn't devoted your entire air force to it for a year.
If I can beat Sugar's plan, maybe one day I can beat Sugar!

(in reply to GeneralFerraro)
Post #: 4
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 6:09:05 PM   
Rannug61


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/14/2018
Status: offline 		I think Sugar wants to go for Greece but doesn't always do it, depends on the situation.

I did pick up some moves from Sugar but only the stuff I can handle.. I don't dare to leave France undefended like he does. I make lots of small errors and some big ones. The Sugar war machine doesn't.
You can probably beat my weak version of the Sugar plan but it's not anything like facing the real thing

_____________________________

"En svensk tiger"

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 5
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 6:48:07 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline 		I am a little concerned that this Sugar "cookie cutter" plan is all that Allied players are going to see until someone finds a way to beat it.
Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar? Let's see how he beats his own plan! Then we can copy it and force players to use more varied strategies.
I just hope that this game is not "solved". It would be a shame.

(in reply to Rannug61)
Post #: 6
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 7:06:12 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar


Sure, and I won all my Allied games also. The plan is mainly to conquer the victory objectives asap, with some variants regarding a Mediterranian strategy and the general approach of air superioty.

The balancing's fine, like it was in Breakthrough SoE. The difference is my experience of more than 70 PbEMs SC3 and more than 200 of Breakthrough, including SoE, and of 12 years with SC alltogether.

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 7
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 7:11:57 PM   
GeneralFerraro


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss

I am a little concerned that this Sugar "cookie cutter" plan is all that Allied players are going to see until someone finds a way to beat it.
Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar? Let's see how he beats his own plan! Then we can copy it and force players to use more varied strategies.
I just hope that this game is not "solved". It would be a shame.



Nah, that doesn't happen, and it won't in the future. The Sugar War Machine doesn't really work without Sugar in charge. The Machine needs a commander with nerves of steel, who doesn't make mistakes ever, or very minor. I've tried following the blueprint of the Sugar War Machine. But you make a couple of serious mistakes, as every human being does, and you are dead. There is no possible copy of the Sugar War Machine

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 8
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 7:31:45 PM   
GeneralFerraro


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar


Sure, and I won all my Allied games also.


Please notice that the Sugar War Machine plays against itself, as shown in the answer to the question "has anyone played the Sugar plan against Sugar?" the Sugar War Machine says "Yea, I did"

However, please notice also that the Sugar War Machine plays against itself, and it wins nonetheless

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 9
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 8:16:48 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Couldn't find a more competent opponent.

(in reply to GeneralFerraro)
Post #: 10
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 8:49:09 PM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline 		Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 11
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 8:57:22 PM   
GeneralFerraro


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy


OMG, just imagine the Sugar War Machine instead of Adolf in the bunker. All of us would be speaking German... JAWOHL, AND WIR WÄREN SEHR GLÜCKLICH DARÜBER, MIT GEWISSEN AUSNAHMEN SELBSTVERSTÄNLICH

(in reply to Titan)
Post #: 12
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 9:05:06 PM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralFerraro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy


OMG, just imagine the Sugar War Machine instead of Adolf in the bunker. All of us would be speaking German... JAWOHL, AND WIR WÄREN SEHR GLÜCKLICH DARÜBER, MIT GEWISSEN AUSNAHMEN SELBSTVERSTÄNLICH


In reality i doubt there would of been any chance of that, Germany would never of been able to build that many aircraft let alone teleport aircraft all over Europe within a flash with there support crews destroy D-Day then teleport back to the Russian front without even having to worry out fuel and all the other logistical issues this game doesn't model. And it certainly doesnt work in a more historical game such as war in the east not that thats perfect either, but it is abit closer to the mark

< Message edited by Titan -- 10/1/2018 9:06:18 PM >

(in reply to GeneralFerraro)
Post #: 13
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 9:19:45 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		Of course Titan, and it explains perfectly why I'm winning every game on either side. Could you also explain where the exploit is, if any side can do the same? And why isn't the Axis winning every game, if it was that easy?

(in reply to Titan)
Post #: 14
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 9:26:11 PM   
Rannug61


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/14/2018
Status: offline 		SC3 doesn't try to be an historical simulation.... it's a game and both sides should have an equal chance to win. In RL Axis was more or less doomed once they started the war on Russia. Sugar would have been a better war leader then Hitler but from a military point of view Axis couldn't win once all the allied power were united even if a sane leader was in charge. I'm sure there are better games out there that tries to simulate history but that is not the idea with SC3. If the Axis should have won the war it had to be some kind of diplomatic or political solution before everyone ganged up on them.

With that said I also think teleporting air units is too easy/cheep as it stands now.

_____________________________

"En svensk tiger"

(in reply to Titan)
Post #: 15
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/1/2018 10:42:44 PM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 638
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline 		I think what the game needs is a better representation of the logistics to operate a Luftflotte.

That being a definition of what constitutes a Luftflotte or for the Allies an air wing(force) and the limit of one of those air groups controlled by an HQ(the logistical base).


Usually one HQ controls the air group and I would define that as a SC fighter, TAC and a medium, strategic, or Naval bomber unit, 3 total(any combination).


Not perfect, but for our game of grand strategy, good enough!

_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to Rannug61)
Post #: 16
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 12:03:21 AM   
Elessar2


Posts: 883
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

I think what the game needs is a better representation of the logistics to operate a Luftflotte.

That being a definition of what constitutes a Luftflotte or for the Allies an air wing(force) and the limit of one of those air groups controlled by an HQ(the logistical base).


Usually one HQ controls the air group and I would define that as a SC fighter, TAC and a medium, strategic, or Naval bomber unit, 3 total(any combination).


Not perfect, but for our game of grand strategy, good enough!


We already have transport points, so see no reason why we can't have Operational movement points, reflecting rail capacity [and thus allowing for Logistics tech to up your capacity a bit].

(in reply to James Taylor)
Post #: 17
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 12:13:34 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		That would make air combat more expensive, I doubt that's the solution. The Brits can easily have the same amounts of aircraft in Egypt and additionally 5 carriers. No reason to lose against a strong Luftwaffe, unless you didn`t get how air combat really works imho.

At least it should be somehow possible to reach the goals for both sides. The limited speed and numbers of tanks compared to Breakthrough SoE shifts the focus to aircraft. I would prefer the opposite, but at least it`s perfectly reflecting WWII warfare. How many aircraft did the Allies use in Normandy? And what happened to Army Group Center after losing air superiority in 44?

(in reply to James Taylor)
Post #: 18
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 2:57:13 AM   
elxaime

 

Posts: 304
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rannug61
What more is typical for the Sugar playing style? Can he be beaten? Ever?


The only thing that can kill Barnes - is Barnes!

(in reply to Rannug61)
Post #: 19
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 3:43:48 AM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline 		Don't get me wrong here..certainly Kudo's to Sugar for mastering this...But the point is he is winning by having good knowledge and better understanding on game mechanic's than anyone else and how to use them, thats all, and less so than strategical or tactical skill, i can play him at one of my favourite games (Combat Mission series...Turnbased as well) that is probably as far as games go one of the best tactical games out there that is as close to real life tactics and physics as one can get....And i would clean him up big time. A game that allows one to teleport air power and all over the map from hotspot to hotspot to blast all threats off the map just shows how over powered air units are in this and it boils down to just to who knows how best to manage to do that and the right steps to take to achieve it that,s all.....Nothing to do with being a strategical master or tactical genuis i'm afriad..

< Message edited by Titan -- 10/2/2018 4:40:08 AM >

(in reply to elxaime)
Post #: 20
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 6:21:54 AM   
Bolko

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 7/10/2015
Status: offline 		I don't know, its pretty expensive to teleport air units around the board. I don't think the cost is the issue. By the way, I am currently being toasted by Sugar while I am playing the Axis and yes he is doing this with his air. And we are only in France. But I made a ton of mistakes that I don't normally make. Probably because I knew I was up against Sugar!

Maybe a greater readiness penalty for air that is operated. This should last a turn with a faster recovery. That might be more realistic but I don't know how it would effect play.

I think the way the game handles operating units is just right. It is good "design for effect". I have played tons of wargames (you know, real old timey wargames with paper maps usually covered in hexes and cardboard counters and charts etc.) and its hard to get that soupcon of the unknown where suddenly the Russians have mustered a new army and just as suddenly the Germans have a reposite. The games that work best have something akin to operating units. The context is definitely there for this mechanic.

< Message edited by Bolko -- 10/2/2018 6:54:32 AM >

(in reply to Titan)
Post #: 21
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 6:54:52 AM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline 		He has mastered that aspect of the game, then zaps your Hq's which effects am even bigger part of your army. If the Airpower was bought more into line where it should be and this operating units one end to another turn aftr turn and perhaps a few other sensible tweeks that would bring this game more towards a game of manouvre and strategic thinking i think you would find your opponent is not to be feared as much as you may think..

(in reply to Bolko)
Post #: 22
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 7:40:47 AM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline 		You're asking the wrong question. If Sugar can do this on either side, and everyone knows he does and succeeds, why don't they do it themselves?
The only answer is: self restraints. Look at my game against KZ, he had more aircraft in France than the Axis, but decided to not attack. Same in Russia on ground units, when the Luftwaffe was committed in the Middle East.

(in reply to Titan)
Post #: 23
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 7:47:26 AM   
Dmondragon75

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/4/2016
Status: offline 		He s just a best player by a mile(s).
Update 1 on his tactics - using tons of diplochits on USA, in our current game its october 42 and USA still on cca 60% which would historicaly be impossible, but still-this is not a ww2 simulation as someone noted🙃
Update 2 - he s sending heavy axis troops on Voronezh, obviously trying to cut USSR in 2 (railway) parts

< Message edited by Dmondragon75 -- 10/2/2018 7:48:07 AM >

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 24
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 1:57:46 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline 		Originally posted by Sugar:
quote:

Breakthrough SoE shifts the focus to aircraft. I would prefer the opposite


Does this mean that you would be willing to play a game with limited aircraft? In the most fun game I ever had against the AI, I was playing Allied, put the Axis on "hard", and did not allow myself to buy any aircraft or aircraft tech, with soft build limits. It took forever to win!
I think it would be a blast to play a PBEM game the same way. It would be a knock-down, drag-out, bare knuckles brawl, decided by "push-of-pike" in the battle line rather than who can kill whose HQ with an air armada.
It could not be part of the tournament, of course, but it would be a riot. Maybe after the tournament is over, we can set-up a few games like this and see how people like it. I know I would.
The rules could be: You may keep any aircraft you start with, but may not buy more.
You can keep any aircraft tech that you start with(including tech already purchased), but you may not buy more.
Soft build limits(because you will need more tanks and such).

(in reply to Dmondragon75)
Post #: 25
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 2:50:39 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Does this mean that you would be willing to play a game with limited aircraft?


No. This means, in Breakthrough Germany could have 10 tanks and 6 tac., heavy tanks or med. bombers weren't part of the game. Now Germany can have 7 + 1 tanks (and 3 heavy tanks, when it's too late), and 9 + 1 tac. and med. bombers. Tanks in Breakthrough had a speed of 6 instead of 5, and could be upgraded (mot.) twice; on a far smaller map than SC3. 10:6 versus 8:10 shifts the focus to bombers, and those russian infantrymen in Breakthrough weren't immune to tank attacks like they are now on the 3. lvl, hehe.

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 26
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 3:18:13 PM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 638
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline 		A game of limited aircraft is not conducive to a WW2 style combat model, a variant of, sure, but not a realistic approach which is what my suggestion was about.

Logistics is what dictates the armed conflict, always will, IRL, it is undeniable, which is what the HQs in SC simulate. The limitations of what the HQs represent is the way to bring about a more accurate representation of WW2 combat mechanics.


And Sugar puts his pants on one leg at a time. As far as I know he's not an alien from outer space, if he's human the playing field is equal.


He's just our new Terif.

_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 27
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 3:47:31 PM   
Markiss


Posts: 334
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: US Midwest
Status: offline 		Originally posted by James Taylor:
quote:

A game of limited aircraft is not conducive to a WW2 style combat model

I did not say that it was conducive to a WW2 style combat game, I said that it was conducive to fun. Nor did I suggest this as a way to beat Sugar, I'm sure that it would not effect the outcome, but it would be more fun getting to the outcome. I find titanic clashes of ground forces more fun to play-out than teleporting air armadas.
I suppose it was selfish of me to try to get someone to play a style I would enjoy more. As I play some PBEM games, it is occurring to me that in order to enjoy any success, I am going to have to adopt a gamey style of play that I deplore. I bet Sugar could win just buying aircraft and garrisons. Is THAT realistic?
Oh well, it's my problem.

(in reply to James Taylor)
Post #: 28
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 5:36:14 PM   
James Taylor

 

Posts: 638
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline 		The post wasn't a personal poke at you, Markiss, but a further support of the facts that govern the scenario I envision for more realism in SC air unit deployments.

My opinion and you're certainly aloud to have your own and I'm sure your version would be fun to play, evident the massive following of SC.

Imagine my restricted deployment as applied to the German early game. 17 air units possible in the build Q(F, TAC, Mdm)and 7 HQs with infrastructure upgrade.

That limitation demands that 5 HQs must be deployed to operate 15 aircraft and the map spacing allows for a greater dispersion which requires expenditure in the LR tech along with the infrastructure and the MPPs to manage the HQs' positioning.

It all means a greater commitment of resources to accomplish the same thing that is allowed now, which in real life Germany didn't have, but might have been able to pull off with more efficiency that hindsight graces us with.

_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to Markiss)
Post #: 29
RE: The Sugar war machine - 10/2/2018 7:06:33 PM   
Titan

 

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline 		I don't know if limiting aircraft etc is the answer, It would be interesting to see a game played with soft build etc...But since Tac is just so lethal and has too much influence on a game....perhaps have a house rule no tech advances allowed in ground attack or range so tac is always at 0 tech...That would limit the assassination of HQ's and limit the ability of tac a bit I would think....and perhaps you may have a WW2 game where the primary focus has shifted back to large scale ground combat and less of less of the Air fleets shifting around the globe wrecking destruction. Be interesting to see how that would go?...Just a thought.
Think of how much harder it would be for Germany to take out Malta..and as it should be. Just that alone would have an impact on game i would think

< Message edited by Titan -- 10/2/2018 7:08:12 PM >

(in reply to James Taylor)
Post #: 30
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