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How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands

 
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How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/22/2018 10:53:25 PM   
rsallen64


Posts: 172
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I am playing my first GC as the Allies against the AI. It's June 1942 and so far I am satisfied with my progress. No big mistakes, no carriers lost, etc. I didn't do a full Sir Robin, and held out in parts of the PI until April. Most of the DEI is gone, but the major bases are still in my hands but doomed to fall soon. I retain PM.

My problem is this: for about 2 months now the KB has been sitting still in the Shortlands. It first sortied down the east coast of Oz and did some damage, but then went back to the Shortlands and has been sitting there for two months and won't move. I've sent subs in, tried some LBA, everything. I know not to get close with my CVs, because I will get hammered, but I would like to move it out so I can invade into the lower Solomons in a month or so. I don't want to rush things, but I don't understand what the AI is doing? I've raided elsewhere to try and draw it off, to no avail. Is it stuck due to a script not firing?

Any suggestions?

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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/22/2018 11:38:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Is it defending?! Waiting for your CVs.

quote:

I know not to get close with my CVs, because I will get hammered


That may be it's orders.

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Post #: 2
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/22/2018 11:42:32 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Ha, I thought it said "stuck in the Shorthairs"....GP

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Post #: 3
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 12:46:40 AM   
Nami Koshino


Posts: 100
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Salem, Oregon
Status: offline 		In the past I've often seen the AI post ships in the same locations for weeks and months. Stuck like glue they were, until I eventually succumbed to the temptation to send something in and sink them. However, they were usually merchant ships, not the KB.

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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 3:16:58 AM   
rsallen64


Posts: 172
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


Is it defending?! Waiting for your CVs.

quote:

I know not to get close with my CVs, because I will get hammered


That may be it's orders.


I don't think it's defending anything in particular, as my nearest base is PM, and it hasn't moved any ships to attack any of my SCTFs that have been ranging across the Coral Sea area sinking the AI convoys, etc.

I do know better at this stage, what with the greater range of the KB's aircraft and the better quality of their crew, to attack with my own CVs, so I think that Nami Koshino's post is probably correct: it's stuck for some reason, and I have to try and pry it loose. I do know it's the KB, because I have scouted it heavily with aircraft, and have seen scores of carrier aircraft come out when I've tried to come close to the Shortlands with any ships. But the ships themselves have not moved.

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Post #: 5
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 5:12:06 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Open the game head to head and play a turn as the IJA and re-route KB.

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Post #: 6
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 11:43:23 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Run in with DD TF (or PTs) for a surface engagement. Chances are KB will retire for ammo resupply afterward

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Post #: 7
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 2:53:39 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

My problem is this: for about 2 months now the KB has been sitting still in the Shortlands. It first sortied down the east coast of Oz and did some damage, but then went back to the Shortlands and has been sitting there for two months and won't move.


1) Are you certain its carriers. How good is your spotting ? I mean do you have "multiple Catalina squadrons" with high NAV search skill actually spotting them in 1942 in that area ?? The spotting is not perfect and in 1942 you may be spotting BB / xAKs identified as carriers but they are not.

Rule 1 : Search / recon - search / recon and when you are 100% certain - search / recon some more.


2) Sub patrols - are DD and or PB at Shortland's reacting ? Are you sending Subs into ports specifically ? Are you just cruising a hex away. Sub spotting in 1942 a hex away is NOT an effective spotting technique.

3) What base do you hold nearby ? Luganville ? Do you have Dive Bombers, Bombers and Lightning escorts that can sortee that far? You indicate Bombers but what type of bombers - where ?

Flying Fortress Bombers on Naval Attack 20K altitude with Pilot skills in the low 30's flying from PM or Townsville will not get the job done. They wont even spot correctly.

Have you tried Port Attack at 10K for example?

4) Why not attack from <insert here>......i.e. Luganville ?

Why not take Nimitz's advice / orders that you are to engage being governed by the principal that you think you can inflict more damage to the IJN than you sustain ? Balance of risk.

If you have 4 American Carriers (i.e. Lexington / Saratoga / Enterprise / Yorktown) available and you have F4Fs onboard - or at least F4F3s - and you load up some Marine squadrons to supplement their air groups (say some devastators / SBD / Even Buffalo's- give kick at the can

You might be surprised and find out it is only 3 IJN carriers one of which is a CVE and that you have already 'thinned' their airgroups.

5) Yes the AI will park Carrier TFs from time to time depending upon the script running - its achievements vs the script - and what you are holding verses what it desires.

Over 3.5 complete games I have witnessed this first hand.

Hollandia, Rabul, Truk, Borneo, Singapore, Palemabang, Sorebja variously depending upon where in game I was vs the AI




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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 2:55:40 PM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline 		I'm worried that this has happened in my game, though it has only been for 3 or 4 turns...

I'm running in some subs with mines to blast them out. No idea if this will work.

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Post #: 9
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 2:57:59 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

I'm worried that this has happened in my game, though it has only been for 3 or 4 turns...

I'm running in some subs with mines to blast them out. No idea if this will work.



See my post above.. in addition to the other advice.

What is your best nearest base? Luganville ?

Run some PTB squadrons into the base see what you see.

Above all - you both fail to mention : Search / Recon - Search / Recon and then when you are 100% certain - Search / Recon a little more.

I think you both may be surprised to discover you do not actually know what is there.



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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 4:00:41 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

I'm worried that this has happened in my game, though it has only been for 3 or 4 turns...

I'm running in some subs with mines to blast them out. No idea if this will work.

Dropping mines there is not a bad idea, but if they are parked they will not hit any mines until they move, and even that is only "maybe". If any other ships are going to Shortlands they are more likely to find the minefield. Once found, the minefield will be much less effective.

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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 5:21:25 PM   
rsallen64


Posts: 172
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Good suggestions to all of the above, and here is what I have done over multiple turns in the past month or so:

1. I have run multiple recon/search runs with Catalinas from both Luganville and Efate, as well as PM. I have also run Lightning recon from Luganville over this area.
2. I sent in multiple sub patrols directly into the base, some of which took heavy damage, one of which was sunk.
3. I sent SCTFs to bombard Tulagi/Guadalcanal and attack Japanese cargo/troopship convoys and SCTFs in the area, which resulted in large formations of Carrier based air groups responding and pummeling the SCTFs that they could find.
4. I simultaneously used recon/search on Rabaul (Catalinas for recon), and well as LBA (Fortresses, Mitchells) to bomb Rabaul from PM, to hit the airfields and ports there, from altitudes of 15000 down to 5000, to make sure the airfields and port facilities were damaged as well as any ships, and to make sure the planes I saw attacking my SCTFs near the lower Solomons were not coming from Rabaul. Based on the recon and those results, they weren't.
5. I did run some sub mining missions into the Shortlands, with mixed results.
6. I have not seen ANY Japanese carrier forces appear anywhere during the entire time this force has been parked, nor have I received any intel about Carrier groups either. My intel tells me I have sunk about 1 CV and 2-3 CVEs so far, but I am taking that with a grain of salt, as usual. But the absence of any activity elsewhere is also another convincing piece of the puzzle.

I do have all my carriers available and they could be in the area in a relatively short time frame, but because I have seen large numbers of carrier based air coming out of the area, I am reluctant to engage because the cost benefit analysis tells me the risk is too high. When this same force came down the east coast of Oz, it was quite strong and did some damage, and I didn't have anything to stand in it's way, so I don't think it's air groups are reduced by much.

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Post #: 12
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/23/2018 5:27:13 PM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Dropping mines there is not a bad idea, but if they are parked they will not hit any mines until they move, and even that is only "maybe". If any other ships are going to Shortlands they are more likely to find the minefield. Once found, the minefield will be much less effective.


interesting--I thought they would just from sailing back and forth in the hex.

They are parked in my base. I guess another idea would be to keep cycling in fighters to my base to wear out their CAP, and then move in with my fleet for a carrier battle featuring a fighter-less KB.


edit--also very possible the kb isn't stuck at all and just kicking my ass from one spot for a few turns.

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Post #: 13
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/24/2018 4:33:22 AM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline 		So serious question--how often does the AI KB get "stuck" like this?

I'm asking because the AI KB hasn't moved from Makassar for probably a week. It is a reasonably strong offensive position there--it limits my defensive movement while I get invaded. I don't want to switch sides to get the AI unstuck if it is following a plan, but I don't want to leave it there if it is stuck either.

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Post #: 14
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/24/2018 6:11:56 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

So serious question--how often does the AI KB get "stuck" like this?

I'm asking because the AI KB hasn't moved from Makassar for probably a week. It is a reasonably strong offensive position there--it limits my defensive movement while I get invaded. I don't want to switch sides to get the AI unstuck if it is following a plan, but I don't want to leave it there if it is stuck either.


I don't know about KB scripts, but in stock scenario 1 the AI was sending BB Nagato and two DDs to Davao, Philippines in the first few days of the game and let it sit there 3 weeks before an invasion TF appeared and Nagato acted as surface combat cover. After the invasion was done the Nagato left with the other ships.

In subsequent games it did the same thing so I put about six subs in the hexes of the bay including Davao itself. Days would pass with nothing sighted and then a sub would get a look at Nagato and sometimes even a shot at her with torps. In one memorable game the first sub hit the BB with a torp and it stayed at Davao. A few days later another sub found it still at Davao and hit it with another torp. At the beginning of the next turn Nagato left Davao but two other subs in the bay and just outside the bay hit her with three more torps and down she went.

Yeah, it was taking advantage of the AI, but I was new to the game and wanted to know if a sub could stalk an enemy ship that was in a port hex that my side controlled. I learned it was iffy, but patience and persistence can pay off.

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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/24/2018 12:03:29 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

I do have all my carriers available and they could be in the area in a relatively short time frame, but because I have seen large numbers of carrier based air coming out of the area, I am reluctant to engage because the cost benefit analysis tells me the risk is too high. When this same force came down the east coast of Oz, it was quite strong and did some damage, and I didn't have anything to stand in it's way, so I don't think it's air groups are reduced by much.


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

So serious question--how often does the AI KB get "stuck" like this?

I'm asking because the AI KB hasn't moved from Makassar for probably a week. It is a reasonably strong offensive position there--it limits my defensive movement while I get invaded. I don't want to switch sides to get the AI unstuck if it is following a plan, but I don't want to leave it there if it is stuck either.



So I am opining the answer is : The KB AI is not stuck

The KB AI is preventing you from executing some strategy or tactical plan you had in mind.

So either:

(1) send in your Carriers - and using the Nimitz Orders - engage in combat when you feel you will inflict superior damage upon opponents while minimizing the potential losses to your own side.... or

(2) Change strategy.

Just saying - this is not an AI issue.

This is an AI interfering with "how I want the war to go issue"





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Post #: 16
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/24/2018 1:20:13 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

I do have all my carriers available and they could be in the area in a relatively short time frame, but because I have seen large numbers of carrier based air coming out of the area, I am reluctant to engage because the cost benefit analysis tells me the risk is too high. When this same force came down the east coast of Oz, it was quite strong and did some damage, and I didn't have anything to stand in it's way, so I don't think it's air groups are reduced by much.


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000

So serious question--how often does the AI KB get "stuck" like this?

I'm asking because the AI KB hasn't moved from Makassar for probably a week. It is a reasonably strong offensive position there--it limits my defensive movement while I get invaded. I don't want to switch sides to get the AI unstuck if it is following a plan, but I don't want to leave it there if it is stuck either.



So I am opining the answer is : The KB AI is not stuck

The KB AI is preventing you from executing some strategy or tactical plan you had in mind.

So either:

(1) send in your Carriers - and using the Nimitz Orders - engage in combat when you feel you will inflict superior damage upon opponents while minimizing the potential losses to your own side.... or

(2) Change strategy.

Just saying - this is not an AI issue.

This is an AI interfering with "how I want the war to go issue"



My thought (which I should have put in my previous post) is that the AI has not yet launched an invasion that qualifies for KB cover, or is on a script that says it should only react if Allied CVs are detected within "x" hexes. In the former instance, KB is prepositioned in a forward position that would allow it to support invasions in NG, the Solomons, the Marshalls and even northern Oz. In the latter instance, destroying the Allied CVs is the primary goal and it is ignoring all other opportunities to have a shot at that.

But we agree it is not stuck in a technical sense.

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Post #: 17
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 10/24/2018 2:16:54 PM   
brian800000

 

Posts: 225
Joined: 9/15/2010
Status: offline 		BBfanboy--that makes sense...in my game at least the position of the KB is problematic--I've lost naval access to Southern Borneo, and can't easily move warships between Sumatra/Java and N. Australia / New Guinea. It also covers some very clear invasion targets.

Obviously sitting in one place is not going to maximize the strength of the KB, but whoever wrote the script could do a lot worse (assuming it isn't stuck).

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Post #: 18
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 6:47:15 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Maybe those scripts are aimed to conserve KB's fuel?

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Post #: 19
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 7:44:26 AM   
Veloz


Posts: 307
Joined: 8/27/2018
Status: offline 		The KB is patrolling defensive triying you not to do your plans (when the KB found finally your plans you better change planes)

if you dont want to change invasion planes please take your 4 carriers and make a battle, if not; you will have a second KB if the war goes far and they will work together

how ta make your 4 carriers allied win agaisnt the KB; please if the weather helps you; and when japan KB strikes first can not do it because of bad weather then you strike first, please less than 3 hexes the battles then you will load 1000 pounds; your torpedoes bombers will not scored but dauntless will

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RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 2:02:25 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		The most common situation for the US winning a carrier battle in 1942 is when KB has to split its strikes between the Allied carriers and other high priority targets like transports, AOs, and battleships. You have no control over weather over your hex or the KB hex, so do not rely on that.

Having the Allied carriers near an Allied base where land-based CAP can help cover the carriers helps. Even if the pilots are not good enough to shoot down much of the Japanese strike, they can greatly spoil their aim.

As for using the Devastators, it is true they do not carry torpedoes very far (usually 3 hexes in my experience) and those torpedoes have a dud rate of about 50%. The pilots are too inexperienced to get many hits, unless the enemy ship has been crippled already. And all too often they waste their torps trying to hit DDs!
For these reasons I load them with bombs for the initial strikes (2 X 500 lb bombs delivered at 1000 feet) and only use torps later if there are cripples. The other thing I do is swap out the Devastators to a land base and take on marine SBDs or fighters. Once the Avengers arrive I start to use them, but torpedoes are still reserved for cripples or BBs in a SCTF until the dud rate improves.

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Post #: 21
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 4:46:25 PM   
rsallen64


Posts: 172
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		All good suggestions, and I very much appreciate them.

My initial thought was to try and draw the KB off with a strike somewhere else, but that hasn't worked. I withdrew my invasion forces for now and sent them back to their initial bases. I think I will let the KB sit for a while and nibble away at the AI's forces around the periphery, mostly in the DEI and the New Guinea area and continue to strike back at any SCTF and invasion forces it moves into my perimeter. In the meantime, I will continue to train my carrier aircrews and improve their skills with raids, and wait until I can replace/upgrade the poor early war airframes.

Once I am a little more confident of my offensive carrier air power I will try and strike this KB, if it is still there, and see what I can do to it, knowing that even if I suffer some losses new CVs will be coming out of the shipyards soon. If I am successful at hurting it and forcing it to go away, I can resume my plans. If not, I can develop a contingency.

Sound like a plan to the more experienced players here (which is just about everyone)?

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Post #: 22
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 5:21:15 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I am guessing that the IJ already controls Guadalcanal/Tulagi and that is where you were planning to invade. Has the AI already tried to invade New Caledonia and Espiritu Santo? If not - though it seems late in the war for those invasions - you might want to keep your carriers in that area to respond to such an invasion, along with substantial land based air support. Using your carriers in an area where you have a lot of LBA is the best way to tame the KB in the first nine months of the war, IMO.

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Post #: 23
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/9/2018 8:04:02 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Maybe those scripts are aimed to conserve KB's fuel?


I don't think the AI gives a hoot about fuel. Playing the AI to date I've looked and have seen AI TF's running around w/o fuel and they acquire no damage while also maintaining speed.

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Post #: 24
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/10/2018 3:12:45 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Maybe those scripts are aimed to conserve KB's fuel?


I don't think the AI gives a hoot about fuel. Playing the AI to date I've looked and have seen AI TF's running around w/o fuel and they acquire no damage while also maintaining speed.

That's one of the things the programmers had to do when creating a computer opponent and scripts - assume that an opponent would have assessed the situation and set in place the fuel needed to run operations. The programmers had no way of knowing what the real situation would be after game start so they had to let the computer do things without going through all the logistics necessary.

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Post #: 25
RE: How to get the AI to budge - stuck in the Shortlands - 11/13/2018 3:44:30 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Maybe those scripts are aimed to conserve KB's fuel?


I don't think the AI gives a hoot about fuel. Playing the AI to date I've looked and have seen AI TF's running around w/o fuel and they acquire no damage while also maintaining speed.

That's one of the things the programmers had to do when creating a computer opponent and scripts - assume that an opponent would have assessed the situation and set in place the fuel needed to run operations. The programmers had no way of knowing what the real situation would be after game start so they had to let the computer do things without going through all the logistics necessary.


Just an observation. I have no problem with the Dev's doing what's necessary to get it to work.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 26
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