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[FIXED] AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead

 
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[FIXED] AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/26/2018 2:07:42 AM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		Problem:

When manually controlling the fighter using a F3 waypoint, and manually designating a target for R-27ET via Shift-F1, the missile flies straight ahead along the aircraft's heading, instead of towards the target.

Steps to reproduce

1) Load mission Flight Tutorial 7 - AAW5 - Russian and Chinese Modern Weapons
2) Launch unit Flanker #1 (SU-27SM/SM3)
2.5) EMCON Radar ACTIVE
3) Use Plot Course (F3) to direct the Flanker towards any target
4) Once within weapons range, use F3 to point the Flanker so the target is offset left / right but within radar gimbal limits
5) SHIFT-F1 to manually allocate ONE R-27TE and ONE R-27RE
6) Watch as the R-27RE is launched towards the target, but the R-27TE flies straight ahead and never guides.


If anyone is confused, I have a screenshot demonstrating it but I cannot post pictures or links apparently until a week after my 10th post? Please PM me and I can send you a link.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 11/3/2018 7:52:47 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/26/2018 12:24:37 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

Posts: 330
Joined: 1/4/2018
Status: offline 		A developer should confirm it, but that behaviour is WAD for that missile and it's shorter legged cousin R-27T.

If you look in the database you'll see that both have IR seekers with 10nm detection range and no datalink. So they are launched in a straight line without lock on, and if they pass near enought the target the seeker acquires it and starts maneuvering. And yes, that makes them fairly useless at long range, in fact, the R-27TE is utter nonsense to me.

The R-27T can be sometimes useful since at shorter ranges there are more probabilities of the scheme working, and since its an autonomous weapon that doesn't self destruct when it goes blind; it serves as a distracion to the enemy at a minimum. Personally I use them as WVR IR missiles with an expanded rear aspect launch envelope, and avoid the A/C/D flanker loadout whenever I can.

Also before someone asks, it's not a datalink missing error of the database, the real thing works that way; ask the ruskies what where they thinking about.

Ancalagon

< Message edited by Ancalagon451 -- 10/26/2018 2:35:27 PM >

(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 2
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/26/2018 3:26:41 PM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		Irregardless of if the missile had a datalink, it should still have been fired towards the target instead of straight ahead.

(in reply to Ancalagon451)
Post #: 3
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/26/2018 3:45:16 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Can we have a save game prior to missile launch please. It's hard to investigate otherwise.

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(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 4
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/26/2018 4:07:04 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		According flight manual of Su-27, radar or OE targeting system provides target acquisition (aiming) for missile. Target seeker locks target.
Pilot launches missiles after signal "missile acquire target".
Here is dead proof link for seeker characteristics. Lock-on range - 20-45 km. (http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php/topic,10371.msg80532.html#msg80532)
In flight manual range envelope is pointed as for front hemisphere - 2-33 km, for rear hemisphere - 0,7-5,5 km.
So, I conclude that missile has no inertial or data-link midcourse guidance, range of acquisition is greater than 10nm and is about 20nm.
Missile shouldn't flight after launch straight ahead without turning to target.



(in reply to Ancalagon451)
Post #: 5
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/27/2018 12:58:49 AM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		Save file attached. Manual fire has already been allocated, all you need to do is unpause.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 6
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/30/2018 7:12:26 PM   
Kobu

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 5/14/2018
Status: offline 		I tested this missile and i dont see any bug.
If the missile only have a IR seeker and no datalink or SARH guide the behavior is correct and in the db only have the ir seeker so if IRL the missile have same features the behavior is correct.

Obviously the use for this missile is very limitated and is reduced to shoot at support planes, drones or fighter running away (that do not maneuver). The advantages is that not trigger any warning due to IR seeker.

Regards

(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 7
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 3:49:52 AM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		Even I commanded him to fire a dumb rocket, the pilot should still aim it at the target at the moment of initial launch (or with the appropriate amount of lead assuming the target does not maneuver, the SU-27's FCR should be able to compute that). Instead, he just shoots it off straight ahead.

(in reply to Kobu)
Post #: 8
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 7:09:04 AM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: intjMaster

the pilot should still aim it at the target at the moment of initial launch

Yes, as I mentioned above - preliminary aiming using radar or IRST - one of the step of weapon release workflow

(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 9
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 12:55:30 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

Posts: 330
Joined: 1/4/2018
Status: offline
quote:

Even I commanded him to fire a dumb rocket, the pilot should still aim it at the target at the moment of initial launch (or with the appropriate amount of lead assuming the target does not maneuver, the SU-27's FCR should be able to compute that). Instead, he just shoots it off straight ahead.


If you delete the manual plotted course in your testbed before unpausing, the IA pilot does exactly that for the most part (sometimes launches too early and the missile goes in a course too off-taget to intersect). But since it is under a manual plotted course, that one has overriding priority and the plane launches without maneuvering.

Perhaps the boresight of a weapon like the R-27T/TE should be reduced to avoid dumb launches but that's all it needs.

Ancalagon

< Message edited by Ancalagon451 -- 10/31/2018 12:56:17 PM >

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 10
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 1:39:49 PM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		Sure there's a manual course, but if the "Ignore Plotted Course when Attacking" Doctrine is set to ON, shouldn't the AI ignore the plotted course when attacking and launch the missile towards the target?

(in reply to Ancalagon451)
Post #: 11
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 1:48:52 PM   
Ancalagon451

 

Posts: 330
Joined: 1/4/2018
Status: offline 		Not sure about that, never use that switch myself; anyone here knows it for sure?

Ancalagon

(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 12
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 10/31/2018 6:18:45 PM   
intjMaster

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 12/20/2014
Status: offline 		So the way I think it should work depends on whether the R-27T/TE has a lock-on-after-launch capability (LOAL).

IF LOAL YES AND MISSILE SEEKER DOES NOT HAVE AN IR LOCK AT LAUNCH
- Missile should fly towards predicted intercept point and track the first / brightest IR signature it sees.
- Potential to miss the target entirely if he maneuvers, or track a friendly / neutral contact.

IF LOAL NO AND MISSILE SEEKER DOES NOT HAVE AN IR LOCK AT LAUNCH
- Unable to manually fire the missile

Irregardless of LOAL capability, if seeker has an IR lock, it should track the target at launch.

(in reply to Ancalagon451)
Post #: 13
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 11/3/2018 7:52:34 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		So, good news and bad news on this.

First, the bad. I checked this with the current public version (B998.12) and the behavior is indeed erroneous. The missile should be fired on the estimated intercept point, not straight ahead.

Now the good. I also checked it using our current internal beta, and it works exactly as designed. It is fired on the estimated intercept point, and it correctly homes on the target if it is able to acquire it.

So you will probably see the correct behavior on the next update release.

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(in reply to intjMaster)
Post #: 14
RE: AA-10D (R-27TE) Fires Straight Ahead - 11/3/2018 8:36:42 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Hope this can be useful. Characteristics of 36T - IR seeker installed at R-27T.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 15
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