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IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

 
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IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories - 10/27/2018 10:47:50 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
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Status: offline 		Historically for oil, fuel, resources(minerals) . Anyone knows, i guess somewhere, someone might have made that calculation.

Also interesting would be to know how much they lost in transit from total.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/27/2018 3:05:04 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		A good deal of an answer to your questions can be found here in this article by Jon Parshall:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/guadoil1.htm

Another one which speaks to the amount of resources lost in transit:

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/j/japanese-naval-merchant-shipping-losses-wwii.html#

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/28/2018 11:15:55 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		From "War, Economy and Society, 1939-1945" by De Alan S. Milward:



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 10/28/2018 11:16:05 AM >

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/28/2018 2:06:03 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks.

Parshall says that "practically" all refineries were in Japan, what does he means by that? i am not aware that those in Palembang, Borneo and Balikpapan were destroyed.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/28/2018 3:27:59 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		Since the British decided pre-war not to defend their possessions it seems that the refinery near Miri was mostly destroyed right away following the Pearl Harbor attack. The Dutch destroyed most of the facilities at Tarakan before capture as well. At Balikpapan some facilities were destroyed although from the article it remains a bit unclear how many (In both cases the Dutch pow's were executed for those transgressions). It seems that the Japanese did not initially benefit much from the refineries captured from the Dutch/British on Borneo. Anyways the article is here:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/BorneoOil.htm (same site, different author)

Apparently the Navy "got" Borneo and the Army "got" Sumatra.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/SumatraOil.htm

Interesting that the Japanese "owned" one of the major refineries for a month when a delayed demolition charge set by the Dutch blew up and pretty much destroyed the whole refinery.





< Message edited by spence -- 10/28/2018 3:36:22 PM >

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/28/2018 4:07:09 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks.

Parshall says that "practically" all refineries were in Japan, what does he means by that? i am not aware that those in Palembang, Borneo and Balikpapan were destroyed.

Part of the reason may be simply the availability of enough tanks in the holds of tankers and other ships. Crude oil is one product - you can fill the whole tanker with it and ship it.
Once distilled into various oil products, you need separate, clean tanks for each kind of product - bunker fuel, avgas, motor fuel, diesel, benzene, propane, butane, lubricating oils, etc. Much easier to send it to Japan for refining and use smaller tankers to distribute the various products.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 10/28/2018 10:13:10 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks.

Parshall says that "practically" all refineries were in Japan, what does he means by that? i am not aware that those in Palembang, Borneo and Balikpapan were destroyed.

Main air training facilities were moved to Philippines, and Sumatra, because of proximity to fuel sources. So I doubt they delivered AVGAS there, back from Home Islands.


I had somewhere page with percentages of Japanese cargo lost during transit. Numbers were pretty low until 1944. In 1945 it was something like 56%, or maybe even over 60%.

< Message edited by inqistor -- 10/28/2018 10:15:31 PM >

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/7/2018 6:39:47 AM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		I remember reading somewhere about Jap ships hauling rice from Thailand to the Home Islands during the war, so they also imported foodstuffs for civilian consumption, which is not simulated in the game.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/7/2018 2:51:44 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

I remember reading somewhere about Jap ships hauling rice from Thailand to the Home Islands during the war, so they also imported foodstuffs for civilian consumption, which is not simulated in the game.


It would seem that all those workers who make steel (HI), ammunition (LI), airplanes, and etc have to eat. IRL the Tokyo Times was publishing "tasty recipes" for grass (the green stuff on the front lawn, not the smoking kind) by the end of 1944 due to the sinkings of so many ships bringing food to the Home Islands. The mining campaign by B-29s in the last few months of the war caused widespread starvation. Being relieved of any necessity to supply food to the civilian workers is a major boon to the IJ Player.

As I recall from a lecture I heard long ago much of SE Asia exports a great deal of rice to other Asian countries. A few other observations might be germane too. From the picture book about the Russian Front by Paul Carrell (can't remember the name)there was a chart that showed that it took 250 or more bomber sorties to equal the sinking of one 5000 ton merchant ship in terms of destroyed cargo. It seems in-congruent that an island nation that starts the war with a deficit of a millions tons of shipping should find it possible to park half its merchant fleet in some out of the way port safe from attack until they need a replacement to move oil/fuel/resources to their Home Island industries.




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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/7/2018 8:43:11 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

so they also imported foodstuffs for civilian consumption, which is not simulated in the game.


Just as 'supply is supply', 'resources are resources'. Just because its resources doesn't mean its oil, fuel, rubber, or tin. It could just as well be food. Can you say abstraction?

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/7/2018 10:49:30 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		Can you say STARVATION. It was not a war crime in the 1940s and the US employed it forcefully and successfully against Japan then. The IJ Player gets to hide half his merchant marine in out of the way ports because he doesn't have to feed his workers (or his soldiers). Airplanes, tanks and bullets don't taste that good and are not nutritious at all.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 12:10:48 AM   
PaxMondo


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Status: offline 		Refineries:
These consume a surprising amount of material in terms of just normal maintenance. Then, twice per calendar year there are major, scheduled maintenance cycles that require a huge amount of material (pipe, catalysts, etc) and the orchestration of enormous number of contractors (electricians, pipe fitters, welders, labor, etc). To create this plan requires intimate knowledge of the refinery units.

Given the distances and the fact that local expertise was not available after 'acquisition', IJ would have been hard pressed to keep just the distillation towers running, forget any reactors. My understanding is that is essentially what happened. IJ was understandably loathe to ship experts into the field, so the refineries only ran basic units upon capture (distillation). The exception was Singers where they kept the alkylation unit (reputedly the only one in asia at the time) to make AvGas The unit was small, sized to support British requirements in Singers only, but still of value. I did hear that even this unit eventually "failed" after a couple of years. The failure may have been assisted by locals ...





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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 12:13:37 AM   
PaxMondo


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As noted above, they got a lot … even more than they had planned. The Philippines alone was a veritable wharehouse of resource that the US had developed over the preceding 20 years. Many strategic elements were present that IJ had no access to elsewhere.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 12:28:26 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Resources:

As noted above, they got a lot … even more than they had planned. The Philippines alone was a veritable wharehouse of resource that the US had developed over the preceding 20 years. Many strategic elements were present that IJ had no access to elsewhere.



The greatest "what if" for me is what would have happened if the Japanese had went in with a "liberating" mindset rather than a colonial one.

I've spent some time reading on the Japanese occupation of the DEI. For the first three months, the Indonesian people felt this was their chance at freedom and welcomed the Japanese invasion. Over time it became clear that the Japanese were just replacing the Dutch.

The war would have taken a drastic turn if the Japanese had established popular national government under their umbrella from the start. A complete fantasy given the Japanese mindset of the time, but interesting nonetheless.

quote:

Being relieved of any necessity to supply food to the civilian workers is a major boon to the IJ Player.


Ditto with the Allies relived of any necessity to be loss averse due to the political fallout.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 12:47:24 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		Japan's (Home Islands) refining capabilities were slow. They were still cracking Mexican and California crude until late '44. I would guess that was pre-war bought oil.

Japanese ships could burn oil as fuel in their boilers, although with a decrease in engine performance and a increase in needed maintenance.

Allied POWs were worked in the fields. Sugar beets were one of the crops they grew.

Shipping stuff back to Japan, along with the Convoy System in general, was lacking in guidance and motivation.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 11/8/2018 1:04:08 AM >

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 2:11:43 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

The greatest "what if" for me is what would have happened if the Japanese had went in with a "liberating" mindset rather than a colonial one.


Seems to me that that is asking the leopard to change his spots. The greatest "what if" from my point of view would be "what if the Japanese had attacked the British in Malaya and the Dutch in the DEI without starting a war with the US by attacking Pearl Harbor or any of the US possessions/colonies in the Pacific (at least right off the bat). I figure that Roosevelt would ultimately have gotten Congress to declare war on Japan but exactly when and at whose initiative could be an interesting situation to explore.

I am an unabashed Allied only player (the blush is way off the rose as far as production is concerned). I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 3:42:05 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The greatest "what if" for me is what would have happened if the Japanese had went in with a "liberating" mindset rather than a colonial one.


Seems to me that that is asking the leopard to change his spots. The greatest "what if" from my point of view would be "what if the Japanese had attacked the British in Malaya and the Dutch in the DEI without starting a war with the US by attacking Pearl Harbor or any of the US possessions/colonies in the Pacific (at least right off the bat). I figure that Roosevelt would ultimately have gotten Congress to declare war on Japan but exactly when and at whose initiative could be an interesting situation to explore.


I agree.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 12:38:14 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		"FBI Maps of Japanese Nationals and Economic Interests in the 1930s"
https://blogs.loc.gov/maps/2018/01/fbi-maps-of-japanese-nationals-and-economic-interests-in-the-1930s/




Attachment (1)

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 3:10:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		Well there's the problem - the Japanese were not getting enough coffee!

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 4:03:59 PM   
MakeeLearn


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There is more info in these .pdfs. Especially the Fuel and Lubricants

REPORTS OF THE U. S. NAVAL TECHNICAL MISSION TO JAPAN
https://web.archive.org/web/20141211145152/http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ_toc.htm

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 10:00:18 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.

To be honest, since I am not handicapped by the silliness of politics, I am able to efficiently use my merchant marine. Thus, I have far more than needed. It has been many years since I have built a "merchie" in the game … there is no shortage - ever.

Remember, I play Andy AI and I developed the "Miracle Highway" so YMMV.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/8/2018 10:14:20 PM   
PaxMondo


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Status: offline 		If you can read Japanese, the economic records from the war still exist and can be obtained with permission from the national archives. some are being translated and are available. Production records just preceding the war for the DEI and PI are both readily available.

That the IJ was grossly overmatched is the truth. That they were as backward as frequently portrayed by the victors is not. That their political system, which allowed the war to start and be fought on the terms that it was (disdain for the conquered, etc) and handicapped them severely, is also accurate.

In so many words, IJ was a riddle to the West for most of the war. Since they didn't hold Western values, yet were able to defeat Western forces was something that had not been seen in centuries. NOt since the Golden Horde really. The Crusades to some extent.

Anyway, it is a fascinating period of history....



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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 1:37:10 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

To be honest, since I am not handicapped by the silliness of politics, I am able to efficiently use my merchant marine. Thus, I have far more than needed. It has been many years since I have built a "merchie" in the game … there is no shortage - ever.

Remember, I play Andy AI and I developed the "Miracle Highway" so YMMV.


I do love this game but it is most assuredly a game. (I am skeptical about the ability of anybody to IRL create a "Miracle Highway" through a hostile nation under any circumstances. That ability is right up there with "all we need to do to break the stalemate in China is to declare war on the rest of the world".)

For an island nation (with a deficit of merchant shipping from the get go) to NOT SUBJECT ITS LINES OF COMMUNICATION TO ENEMY ATTACK IS UNREALISTIC IN THE EXTREME. That unrealistic ability is compounded by allowing the IJN/IJAAF to improve its ASW capability while simultaneously not requiring a report of every merchant ships' noon position (as the lackadaisical IJN shipping bureau really required [in a code a 3 year old could break]) and giving a whole bunch of IJN submarines a 4 hex search ability (their GLEN a/c can search a 4 hex radius twice a day even though IRL they could just barely fly a search pattern to a distance of 1 hex given 12 hours). Now it seems that even if one doesn't create a "Miracle Highway" one can still squirrel away most of that initially deficient merchant marine with no worry that your industry will ever suffer any problem producing at full measure much in the manner of Germany in WW2.

The game unfortunately requires that the Allied Player "play in IJ's ballpark and by IJ rules even though historically it was the IJN that decided to throw away 20 years of prewar planning for "The Decisive Battle" (to take place a few kilometers from the Imperial Homeland) and go out to seek the enemy in the far reaches of the Pacific. The Japanese Army had a telling name for the pivotal Battle of Guadalcanal: "Starvation Island".

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 8:28:06 AM   
Veloz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well there's the problem - the Japanese were not getting enough coffee!





besides as WITP and WITPAE send coffee to china and home island Osaka and Hiroshima-kure (better supplies once you found it); and the game will run optimal

never take supplies from TOKYO as in WITP

learning WITPAE now what a game¡ ; the mechanics of production system is great

now you can build your own supplies

need a PBME soon, really good this thread

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 10:48:47 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.


Don't forget what said above, that we are mostly free from food shipping to Japan;

in addition, the greatest and most trustworthy resources source for Japan, in game, is from its northern islands (Hokkaido region);

now I have not found yet any document describing Hokkaido as rich in coal or any metal ore or any other meaningful resource besides fish and timber (and even so not at astronomical numbers), fact that leads me to think the extraordinary richness of Hokkaido in resources in game was imposed by the developers merely as a balancing issue;

degrade this importantan resources source in game ( as it coud be done in a mod and as I am planning to do) and you'll find much much less shipping sitting ... well moored in ports rather than sailing, guaranteed;

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 11:53:36 AM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		Obviously, the steroids were given by the devs to the both sides of the conflict. Allied player does need not to move resources from India to UK for their use in military production there. The CONUSA doesn't need to ship resources from South America to the States. I bet the Allied player gets the full merchant wartime OOB at his disposal to ship supply, while in RL those merchies moved both supply and resources.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 2:18:03 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Obviously, the steroids were given by the devs to the both sides of the conflict. Allied player does need not to move resources from India to UK for their use in military production there. The CONUSA doesn't need to ship resources from South America to the States. I bet the Allied player gets the full merchant wartime OOB at his disposal to ship supply, while in RL those merchies moved both supply and resources.


The allied naval authorities did not commandeer all the ships their countries possessed. They put what they needed to haul war materials (including food to isolated Britain) and left the small coasters to ply their trade up and down the coast moving whatever the civilian economy needed. On large land masses, rail transport expanded greatly to handle both military and civilian needs. So yes, the game does not need to model all of this civilian economy.

On the Japanese side, much of her food came from the sea, and rice/vegetable could easily be sent by rail to Fusan, Korea and moved to Honshu by small ship or barge. Having most of their young men fighting overseas would also reduce the pressure on their food stocks. Women did the farming and fishing.

So obviously, I think the game developers thought of these things and the game production/supply system works quite well.




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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 2:40:26 PM   
spence

 

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 4:06:00 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I am an unabashed Allied only player (the blush is way off the rose as far as production is concerned). I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.


I have seen your first comment about keeping merchies in port but didn't want to reply for fear of triggering another flame war.

But well... I usually keep 'every merchie employed all the time'.

In my current PBEM my entire merchant fleet is busy hauling as many resources as possible to the HI to create a stockpile before increasingly effective Allied subs take their toll and Allied actions close the convoy routes.

My experience with "classic WitP" was that in the later stages of the campaign, I lacked resources but still had ample fuel/oil late war.

Maybe it is different in AE and I'm wasting precious fuel in shipping resources from the SRA.

More experienced players may have fine-tuned the industry management to a point where imports from China / Northern Japan are enough to sustain the economy up to and during the endgame while optimizing fuel consumption.

But I'm not a numbers-cruncher and I prefer to take no chances - better to have too much than too little resources stockpiled.

Dunno if there are AARs of Japanese players who have run-out of resources in the Home Islands?

However, I do have unemployed shipping - my tanker fleet. Even before the Allies started to bomb / take back / cut off oil centers in my current game, I had more tanker capacity available than oil / fuel to ship home.

In my present PBEM (Feb 44) I will lose Sumatra soon, so I plan to cut-back on shipping resources home and will have to lay-off a large part of my merchant fleet in order to preserve fuel - this is by necessity, not by choice.

I am not using the mystical "magic highway" because I consider it "gamey" (i.e. exploiting a game mechanism that allows unrealistic behavior).

I should add that I do play DBB-C exclusively, the mod has reduced cargo capacities of transports, merchant-ships and tankers by 30%.

What is the situation on the Allied side?

I have read comments from Allied players that they have so much shipping and supplies later in the game that they don't need to employ all available ships because front bases are already swimming in millions of supply points.

Probably the consequence of having full supply production on Day 1 (in stock and many mods).

To me it is notable that Allied players don't complain about 1944/45 production levels on Dec 7th, 1941 and the luxury of unemployed shipping later in the war

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/9/2018 4:58:13 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.


Don't forget what said above, that we are mostly free from food shipping to Japan;

in addition, the greatest and most trustworthy resources source for Japan, in game, is from its northern islands (Hokkaido region);

now I have not found yet any document describing Hokkaido as rich in coal or any metal ore or any other meaningful resource besides fish and timber (and even so not at astronomical numbers), fact that leads me to think the extraordinary richness of Hokkaido in resources in game was imposed by the developers merely as a balancing issue;

degrade this importantan resources source in game ( as it coud be done in a mod and as I am planning to do) and you'll find much much less shipping sitting ... well moored in ports rather than sailing, guaranteed;



A Google search with keywords Hokkaido and natural resources yields ample results to find that Hokkaido was an important domestic source of mining products. It holds 45% of Japan's coal deposits and almost the entire supply of iron ore, plus modest amounts of copper and gold. Mining conditions however are difficult and thus expensive and post-war it was cheaper to import resources, so there is little left of the mining industry today.

In other words, it was an important source of DOMESTIC production. However, in the big picture the amounts were relatively minor compared to imports from other areas of the Empire and the SRA. IOW a certain amount of resource production on Hokkaido in the game is justified, but "by feel" it is too generous in the game - or the production in the SRA is too low. Speaking of modding, I have moved a sizeable part of Home Island resource production to the SRA in the Bottlenecks mod.


< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 11/9/2018 5:22:02 PM >

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to adarbrauner)
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