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Winter Line - 11/19/2018 4:08:10 PM

Zug
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New guy, first post.

Playing my first grand campaign, as Axis. First summer has gone well, and I am thinking ahead to what I will need to do to prepare for the blizzards and possible counteroffensive.

It's now mid-September and the line runs from Leningrad (should fall soon) to just east of Moscow, through Voronezh to Rostov.

Any tips on how to set up my winter defense? I can push further anywhere south of Tula as there is little defense, but supply lines are stretched to the limit, so thinking of halting here and getting that squared away.

More than positions though I am wondering whether I should dig in, fortify anywhere? I've read many posts here on this board and I see both extremes with some building a line around the September positions, then pushing forward 5 or 6 hexes, and then falling back on the forts during the blizzards.

I also see blanket statements like do not build forts. I suspect that these extremes come from changing rules and mechanics over the years, or maybe just personal preference. Under the current version, what is the best advice? What might you do in my position?

_____________________________

Animals flee this hell. The hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure.

Post #: 1

RE: Winter Line - 11/20/2018 7:44:39 AM

MarauderPL
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Welcome to the forums Zug :)

If you are past Moscow mid-September then you have nothing to fear in winter :)
As to the digging, units generally dig themselves (their fort level will rise every turn) - you dont need to create fortified zones to help them. You can however create some zones behind your front line, so the zones create fort levels there in advance - and your troops can fall back on these lines if need be. Assign some construction units directly to the zones to speed up building fort levels.

On the other hand you may still go forward, you have plenty of time till mud. Stalingrad maybe? Or the northern border of the map, north from Moscow (Cherepovets etc.)?

(in reply to Zug)

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RE: Winter Line - 11/20/2018 8:23:46 AM

AlexSF
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Mid-September and you almost hold Lengrd, hold Moscow Voronezh and Rostov ?? You should try a game against a human Soviet, be careful your experience of the game might change significantly !! :)

< Message edited by AlexSF -- 11/20/2018 8:24:12 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Winter Line - 11/20/2018 8:37:40 PM

Kielec
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Whatever you do, remember three things:

1. Rivers will freeze stiff and provide no barrier till after the spring thaw, so don't plan your defence lines along rivers.

2. Axis units will fare better during the blizzard when in towns/cities/urban. Consider your armour for winter garrison duties, and try to rotate the infantry units holding the front with the ones resting in nearby towns/cities.

3. During the blizzard the costs of moving supplies off the railheads will be high. Plan your defence lines with that in mind, but don't let the enemy come close to your strategic rails going along the front as enemy contact breaks supply...

(in reply to MarauderPL)

Post #: 4

RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 1:11:34 PM

Zug
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Thanks for the welcome and the tips!

Yes, that is more or less the line. Not sure I'm ready for head to head, as I've still a lot to learn, but I am loving this game.

Stalingrad is out of the question. I mean, if logistics were not a thing, 1st Panzer could have reached Baku by now. But as we all know, logistics is very much a thing.

If anyone might care to see this campaign, I've written an AAR about my adventures on SimHQ.

Ooops, cannot post links....

I've made some mistakes, but overall I am quite pleased with our progress especially as it's my first go at this. I played the Road to Minsk scenario five times, then jumped in to the grand campaign. Keep in mind the AAR is written for sim-heads, not necessarily wargamers.

_____________________________

Animals flee this hell. The hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure.

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Post #: 5

RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 1:31:23 PM

timmyab
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I would keep pushing South of Tula with infantry if the ground is there to be taken. Create a buffer for December that you can retreat out of.

What to do in first blizzard is highly dependent on the game position. Although you have a very dominant position geographically in this game, if your Soviet opponent is strong (say 6M+ men), then he is still dangerous and you should be wary.
Normally if Axis players control Moscow then their blizzard defense will revolve around holding the city throughout the Winter. The heavy commitment needed to do this means that some other areas have to be thinned out, so parts of the front will need to adopt an elastic defense. This is usually going to be in the South because the terrain is unsuitable for defending. Beware of the North too though because enemy buidups are more difficult to spot and surprise attacks can cause serious problems up there.

Keep your recon aircraft busy looking for enemy cav and tank concentrations and back away from them where you are weak, especially in December.

The mountain and light divisions are a crucial part of your defense. Form at least one corps from these units into a strategic reserve and use it to counterattack the most dangerous threats.

Another interesting subject is how to use the armour. Some of it will have to be deployed on the front line, but how much will depend on the game situation and how powerful the Soviet army is.
Generally speaking deploy front line armour opposite enemy mobile formations (armour and cavalry) in locations where you intend to defend elastically. Mobility is the key here, not CVs. Keep these divisions well supplied with fuel.
The strongest armour should be in cities and 4 level towns as close behind the front as possible. These units are often well placed to counterattack and, in an emergency, plug holes in the front. Cities which form part of the front line are particularly good places for these 2nd line armoured units.
Keep an armoured strategic reserve as well. One corps of strong armour centrally located on good rail links to be deployed in an emergency only.

Building rear fortifications is useful where you intend to hold, i.e. Moscow. Try to get most of the building done before December.

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Post #: 6

RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 1:50:29 PM

Zug
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Great post timmy, thanks. That brings up a good point, from where I am, where should I look to push to? I've taken Rostov, but the supply situation, and mud arriving next turn caused me to pull the advance elements of 1st Panzer back to Rostov. I didn't want them isolated when the mud arrived. But a brief period should follow with the freeze where I can make final alterations, correct?

I wish I could post the link to the AAR which would show my situation specifically, if not a couple turns behind where I actually am now, and allow folks to offer advice based on the actual situation.

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Post #: 7

RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 3:21:02 PM

SparkleyTits
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http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4449191/the-war-in-the-east-grigsbys-wite#Post4449191

Here is the link to Zug's AAR it's very murderous and a good read if anyone would like to check it out!

I would definitely advise going up against a human you seem to have more than enough of the mechanics down to beat the AI with absolutely no trouble at all
Moscow turn 8

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Post #: 8

RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 5:39:39 PM

Zug
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Thanks mate, but that was down to the Russian forgetting to defend more than because of what I did I'd reckon :)

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RE: Winter Line - 11/21/2018 9:24:33 PM

AlexSF
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Yes, nice AAR, well written and lots of screen shots.

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Post #: 10

RE: Winter Line - 11/22/2018 3:21:39 PM

Zug
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Thanks, and a new installment has been written, General Mud has arrived.

About the winter line, as advised above, the troops dig in while stationary. So in general terms where I reach before the mud could be considered my fall-back line, as the month they sit there allows some fortification. If I can then push forward during the freeze, there would exist a semblance of a fortified line to fall back on as the Russian pushes me out of my positions during the blizzards. Or at least that's how I interpret the situation.

Experience is a valuable thing, and as this is my first go at this I have learned a hell of a lot. One maxim has been impressed upon me, and that I did not consider beforehand. And that's the fact that my turn 22 positions (when the snow starts) must be reached by the end of turn 17. I need to be able to see the turn 22 operations four turns in advance and get my forces, especially my Panzer Corps, in to these positions by then, because to try and reposition during the mud is not profitable.

When turn 22 arrived I realized that some of my panzer units were not ideally placed to take advantage of the narrow three week window of the freeze. Lesson learned and will pay off hopefully should I attempt another go at the grand campaign.

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Post #: 11

RE: Winter Line - 11/22/2018 3:43:47 PM

SparkleyTits
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The best thing to do with armour and motorised is set them all to 20% TOE before winter arrives as each turn damaged elements (which there will be alot of) will have a 5-20% to turn into a lost element the lower the morale the higher to 20% the losses will be
The blizzard also has a higher chance than most weather debuffs to damage your equipment and trucks when you move a unit and again this will turn into lost from winter debuffs so try and stay as static as you can if the situation allows you to so you can save on a few more losses

Another very vital thing but this is more in the case of PvP games is putting as much as you can into winter garrisons to bypass this rule too and you also will not lose any morale each turn so I would advise putting your armour into garrisons and high priority infantry like the I corp and others if you feel comfortable in practicing the logistics it takes before taking on human players

Ultimately if you are anxious to do well in your first winter and do not want to learn all the minutua just yet of garrisoning units, then against the AI you will be fine if you do not do it but I would definitely advise getting into the good habit of setting your armour and MOT to 20% TOE as this will save you a good 1000 tanks you would lose needlessy otherwise just from keeping them outside in the cold then once the bad weather ends set them to 100% again and your armour will be fresh, strong and ready for 1942

Good luck!

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Post #: 12

RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 12:41:49 PM

Zug
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Thanks for the great tips, these are the sorts of things I need to learn to become an advanced player.

I want to understand the mechanics of what you are advising. What does changing the ToE do? Is it done to prevent my panzer units from replenishing losses to just have them lost again?

Is MOT, motorized units?

By setting the ToE to 20% will these divisions be of any use in the winter as a mobile reserve, or are they simply mothballed for the winter?

Come spring, and setting it back to 100% are they automatically replenished? Just boom! and full strength division?, or do they need to enter refit and it takes time?

_____________________________

Animals flee this hell. The hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)

Post #: 13

RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 1:47:18 PM

SparkleyTits
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Yes by setting the divisions to 20% TOE they will not be reinforced throughout winter, saving your AFV pools for when they will not get winter attrition debuffs
MOT is motorised division, sorry for not clarifying!
If you have panzers that are set to 20% TOE and you use them in winter they are still very useful as they will be as strong as they are before winter (Minus the winter debuffs on offensive/defensive CV) and they will not drop to 20% over 1 or 2 turns it'll be a slow process of degradation, even at 20% TOE panzers are still annoying nuts to crack and will still cause many losses to the Soviets so they are always useful!
Once you set your tanks to 100% TOE if they are on rails and there is enough pool then yes WHAM tonnes of 100% TOE panzer division in all your units that can allow it
The closer to your railhead the quicker the replenishment, the further away then vice versa
Just remember this is also dependant on panzer pools as they cannot replace what they do not have but I imagine in your case currently this won't be a problem

You mentioned mothballing panzers in cities over winter this is a great idea as it retains your morale and the offensive mobility of panzers in 1942!
If you garrison panzers over winter they can retain 85+ morale for 1942 meaning they can still move 2mp per enemy hex for 25 maximum hexes instead of 3mp per hex with 16 maximum hexes, so it's a big difference!
It also means they will have on average about 5-7 more morale if managed properly, resulting in more maximum EXP for that the all important CV stat
If you keep your panzers out in winter you will never reliably be able to get them to that kind of position again throughout the game

Tried to keep that as simple as I could and there are of course some exceptions with things like elite divisions but do shoot back with any questions if you have any mate!

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Post #: 14

RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 3:36:08 PM

Zug
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Awesome stuff, thanks a lot. To garrison units in cities, do they have to be in the actual city limits, or do adjoining hexes count?

ST, you are reading the AAR and know my situation. My initial plan would be to send 4th Panzer to winter in Leningrad, 3rd Panzer in Moscow, 2nd Panzer, where? Kharkov and Kursk? 1st Panzer in Stalino and maybe one corps in Denpro in case of a breakthrough out of the Crimea.

How does the size of the city I choose affect things like Timmy alluded to? I've read there is a varying chance of losses from the dice roll depending on city 'class'. How does that work? How do I identify the level of the city? Thanks for the help everyone, I think with these tips I might weather the storm. I know this stuff is in the manual but it's more fun discussing it. There are no RTFM answers here and that's cool.

quote:

1. Rivers will freeze stiff and provide no barrier till after the spring thaw, so don't plan your defence lines along rivers.

My lines are indeed up against rivers in many places. I realize they will freeze over and not stop even armor. When frozen are there no advantages to making a stand here? What matters is how it's coded, but in real life this would not only be slippery, but terribly exposed. In the game a frozen major river is treated as if it's just a clear hex for combat calculation purposes?

quote:

if your Soviet opponent is strong (say 6M+ men), then he is still dangerous and you should be wary.

Before the mud hit on turn 18 he was 2.4 million men. During the month of mud he reinforced by about 120,000 soldiers per turn, or 500,000 men total, bring him to 2.9 million. We would slice another few hundred thousand off of that during the snows. At that rate of replenishment I would reckon the Russian will have roughly 3 million troops when the blizzard hits. Is there a sudden injection of the Siberian armies at the start of the blizzards? Or are these troops already accounted for in the totals?

Looking at the map the enemy looks very strong, especially in the north. But looking closer I can see these are at least 80% brigades, and even closer, that although they are in good supply, have very low morale and experience.

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Post #: 15

RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 4:14:17 PM

SparkleyTits
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Black: Level 4 towns, these can garrison 1 division
Red: Cities, these can garrison 2 divisions
Yellow: Urban, theses can garrison 3 divisions

I have no doubt I missed some or have some wrong so do double check if you wanted to use this pic yourself
If you hover your mouse over the hex it will say town, city, urban
To check if it is a level 4 town just hover over a town and there will be a number 1,2,3,4 next to the town name that is it's level

The Moscow area has an absolute tonne of possible garrison spots for winter

About the different rolls for garrisoning in hex types I did not knowthat myself but I would love too, hopefully somebody else can answer that one for us both

Atm around 4.5 mil OOB is an average game give or take a couple of hundred thousand so if he is at 2.9 million you will find winter very, very easy!

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RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 4:44:22 PM

Zug
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Fantastic effort there thanks. So the entire 3rd Panzer could easily winter in and around Moscow itself, dispersal considerations aside.

Back when I started this campaign I tried to look ahead and consider how I would finalize my lines before the blizzards. Every student of this stuff has read the horror stories of what actually occurred, and the reports by players of the blizzards in the game. But now I see that instead of pushing my lines beyond these cities to 'protect' them, that they actually make great anchors for the line itself. As a result cities like Rostov and Voronezh will be in the line, not behind it. I hope that proves a sound decision.

Everyone is saying that with the Russian at 3 million men that I have nothing to worry about, but I find I still do :)

I am playing the 260 point campaign, and have 249 as of turn 23. I must survive the winter in good shape, then victory should follow during the summer offensive, or at least that's the plan.

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Post #: 17

RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 5:46:58 PM

SparkleyTits
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December will always seeing the Axis being pushed back at least a little bit and losing a couple of battles across the front no matter the Axis postion as your offensive CV will be 33% it's usual and your defensive CV will be 50% and ontop of that any deficit in trucks will translate into less applicable CV in units with deficiences
But with each new month the debuffs get less detrimental for the Axis

Aslong as you are not in a general retreat of 20 miles across the frontlines each turn, in danger of having more than the odd division being pocketed & losing 50 battles a turn you probably in control
Which I hope is the case!

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RE: Winter Line - 11/23/2018 11:56:47 PM

Kielec
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Be cool.

From what you are saying here, and from your AAR, you will be more than comfortable through the Blizzards.

Make sure your defence line, as designed before the Mud comes, is supplied well - building fortifications costs supply. Go to the manual for the details, but to build Fort level 2 it is already a substantial cost. And you may need some of them Lvl 3 forts in more exposed areas. Well, make sure the diggers get them supplies.

Also, digging-in goes slow(er) on the front line. Consider putting some units in front of your intended Blizzard defence line to keep the enemy ZOCs away from the diggers. When the Blizzard comes pull them in, or not, depending on situation.

Good luck, but it seems to me you will not really need it ;-)

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Post #: 19

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 12:51:12 PM

Zug
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Thanks, and after the first two weeks of blizzard I'm starting to believe you guys

Up to this point I would guess I hadn't seen more than 6 Russian attacks on any turn, but the first week of blizzard and there were thirty at least, and more on the second week. My troops held, though we are suffering massive losses to the cold of course. Nearly four division's worth per week. These losses, combined with incessant enemy pressure will surely result in a contraction of lines at some point. It will depend in large part I think on how quickly these men disabled by the cold are returned to the line units.

I was happy to see the number killed was far less than what we suffered during the mud. So while these high losses hurt, the fact they should return is good. How long is the 'convalescent' period?

This is my first campaign, and I feel I've handled the troops in the field well, but I've made a bit of a hash of the rails. Mistakes, misunderstandings and partisans have all contributed to put the rail system behind where it should be. All of my line troops are in supply, but with it being so sub-optimal, it's putting a severe strain on my motorpool. It seems we suffered a net effect of -40,000 trucks in the first week of blizzard alone. This could have the most telling effect on my campaign. A combination of weather related and combat losses combined with withering supply could force the line back. If so, they will be falling back on the rail heads and it should be self correcting.

I look forward to another campaign when I get another shot at the rail system. It should go much better with what I've learned.

In Army Group Center and Army Groups A and B I managed to get my armor in to the winter positions in time, but in Army Group North I needed the armor to hold the line while the troops released from the capture of Leningrad moved in to it. Now these panzer units are trying to get to their winter positions and are being chewed up by the terrain and the weather. If I could have captured Leningrad even two weeks earlier it would have saved a hell of a lot of vehicles.

The tips in this thread have been invaluable, and to be able to hold the line through the first two weeks has been comforting. It also appears that the enemy failed to draft in any new replacements during these two weeks, as his strength returns haven't increased. Not certain why this is, but I expected it to increase at the same rate as during the mud, roughly 120,000 per week. Hopefully this continues for some time!

Do the effects of the blizzard lessen during the first winter? It lasts until March? The loss rate would be hard to sustain for that long.

< Message edited by Zug -- 11/24/2018 1:20:21 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 1:08:46 PM

SparkleyTits
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Ways you can temporarily alleviate your truck situation is by putting your planes into reserve as you probably don't need many of them atm just keep some fighters out and some ground support in areas if you feel you need it but putting as many of the heavy planes as you can like LB's and transports will help
Another thing is keeping your lines as static as possible throughout the blizzards, definitely don't move divisions with alot of trucks, panzers, motorised etc as they will eat your trucks badly (Everytime you move a division it's elements have a chance of breaking down, this chance is high in the blizzard second only to mud)
So definitely never ever move in muds as Axis unless you absolutely have to, it will destroy your trucks and panzers and such like no other weather debuff!

Soon you will get your HIWI's being put into divisions soon and they will bolster your manpower needs very nicely so I imagine your men will be in no trouble at all once that happens
In december your divisions will be replenished very slowly as there are big limits on reinforcements but like all the other debuffs they diminish with each new month

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Post #: 21

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 1:27:30 PM

Zug
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You bring up a good point. I haven't been able to make heads nor tails of how to deploy my air groups. I see the units in National Reserve, and I've gotten some to be deployed by adding capacity to an airfield and clicking move. But I had no control over which units moved. I need to research how this is all done.

Speaking of this, Luftlotte 2 just withdrew and I now have no air cover for Army Group A. I see no fighters above staffel strength in reserve. How do players handle this? I'd really like to get some air power down on the right wing. There was also a large fleet of Ju-52s added to the reserve, and I'd like to deploy them for supply drops when needed. Can I deploy airfields in some way? This game is fantastic, so much to learn.

< Message edited by Zug -- 11/24/2018 1:30:33 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 1:29:31 PM

SparkleyTits
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You can make airbases as Soviets but you only have the airfields you are given as Axis
You need to transfer the airframes from other theatres that can do without as much cover to the areas you feel needs more air power

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Post #: 23

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 3:50:06 PM

Zug
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By transfer, that means 'driving' the airbase overland correct? That will gobble up the few trucks I have left.

I need another Luftlotte!

Speaking of another... I also need another Army HQ. When AGS split I was able to fix overloading on the Army Group level and the corps level. But a few Armies still have some overloading especially 9th Army. I'd love to fix this without assigning infantry to Panzer Armies and without assigning German units to satellite HQs. Any chance of this? Does another Army HQ eventually make an appearance?

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Post #: 24

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 4:46:06 PM

SparkleyTits
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No you can transfer planes in and out of different airbases in two ways
By sending them to reserve and then bringing them to your desired base next turn. This takes 1 turn to reserve then 1 turn to bring out of reserve then another turn use the planes offensively (will still fly defensive missions when you bring them out of reserve)
Or use the support setting for air allocations which can be sent back and to a new base in one turn (But you get no fatigue reduction or morale additives if applicable)
This bit would be much easier to show with a pic but I aren't at my PC atm mate so hopefully somebody else could help here but if not will PM you tomorrow

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Post #: 25

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 5:17:59 PM

Zug
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Thanks, and I have turned this thread in to catchall and gotten away from the winter line topic, apologies.

I asked my overloading questions here

Ooops, no links yet.....

As to the transferring of squadrons, thanks for the answers, but when the Luftlotte withdrew, they took their airbases with them, so I cannot use the methods described above, as there is no airbase to send them to. Or I am missing the obvious.

Anyway, this is off topic and I should keep things where they belong or title the thread 'Answer all of my questions'

You've been a big help SparkleyTits.

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Post #: 26

RE: Winter Line - 11/24/2018 5:30:18 PM

SparkleyTits
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My pleasure mate I always love to help so do please keep asking!

When I first joined many people did this very same thing to me helping me with my questions and helping me to understand the game so the way I see it, it's the least I can do to give a little to the forum back!

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Post #: 27

RE: Winter Line - 11/25/2018 6:36:02 PM

Kielec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug

Do the effects of the blizzard lessen during the first winter? It lasts until March? The loss rate would be hard to sustain for that long.

The First Blizzard effects become less painful with every passing month. Go to the updated manual for the details (22.3.1 and around).

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Post #: 28

RE: Winter Line - 11/25/2018 6:55:42 PM

Zug
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Thanks Kielec. I've reached the end of January and indeed the effects have abated somewhat. Replacements are trickling in at the rate of about 3,000 per week and I look forward to when the troops disabled by the cold make their way back!

< Message edited by Zug -- 11/25/2018 7:58:13 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Winter Line - 11/26/2018 12:51:30 PM

Zug
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Thanks for the help everyone. We successfully navigated the blizzard turns in good shape. The line mostly stayed in place and the armor was preserved in garrison positions. We took heavy casualties from the conditions of course, but these men will be back in time and we can begin to plan the summer offensive.

(in reply to Zug)

Post #: 30