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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy

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Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/18/2018 3:32:15 PM

Yaab

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Scen 100, Allies

I have long suspected something is fishy with torpedo bombers attacking ships with bombs. My Vildebeests in Malaya in December 1941 alaway seemed to achieve 50% hit rate from altitudes of 5000-6000 feet provided there was no CAP over xAK ships, but these Kate guys here (average exp 55, NavBomb skill 55) from the Jap CVLs make B-17s on 100 feet look irrelevant.

--------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Iloilo at 80,84

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 5
B5N1 Kate x 10

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAKL Dos Hermanos, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 17000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Massive explosion on xAKL Dos Hermanos
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAKL Dos Hermanos

----------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so a 20% hit rate from 17,000 feet against a small moving xAKL. Who is really using the Norden bombsight in this game? At the same time, the IJA guys with similar exp/skill level have hard time hitting stationary airfields in China.

Imgaine, create a CV group with TB groups only and drop bombs from 25,000 feet on enemy CVs when you get the TB skill to 70s.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/18/2018 3:36:06 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/18/2018 3:40:32 PM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, I don't think you can tell anything from 1 attack result.

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Post #: 2

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/18/2018 3:50:41 PM

Yaab

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You can see this phenomenon happen observing the automatic attacks on turn 2 performed by the Swordfish and Vildebeest at Kota Bahru, provided the Nate CAP is be diverted to Hudson/Blenheim attacks, and the TBs arrive over the Jap TFs unmolested.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/18/2018 4:22:58 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/18/2018 10:04:49 PM

Dili

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Yes i have found that too. You put a Swordfish at 1000ft and it hits anything, much better than using torpedoes. It is completely out of what is supposed to be.

< Message edited by Dili -- 11/18/2018 10:05:50 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 4:51:34 AM

Yaab

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This is an attack against the most AA heavy TF at start (Boise/Houston) patrolling Cebu under sacrficial CAP of P-26s.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Cebu at 80,86

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 8
B5N1 Kate x 16

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Boise, Bomb hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
6th PS PAAC with P-26A (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you put Nells/Bettys instead of Kates , they hit water 99 times out of 100 times due to high altitude/flak interference. It got to a point that I dont fear Nell/Betty/DB/IJA bombers, but once Mabels/Kates arrive over a TF it is game over.

Who needs the no-B-17-at-100 feet house-rule, when the TB horde is the death from above?

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 5

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 4:51:11 PM

spence

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As Allies I pretty much always move my Vildebeests and Swordfish from Malaya to Borneo. There they always seem to inflict all sorts of mayhem on the Japanese merchant marine unless the various invasion fleets are covered by fighters. Interesting that even if (and its a big if) they manage to bomb ships in Malaya they never hit a thing but with the same experience and morale (and obsolescence) they seem to "never" miss when conducting missions in Borneo.

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Post #: 6

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 6:57:21 PM

Lokasenna

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Have you checked the skill levels of the pilots involved and repeated the turns for a sample size?

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Post #: 7

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 7:20:32 PM

Yaab

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Well, I redo turns 2-4 quite a lot, and the results are consistent. The Kate pilots come from the starting Jap CVLs (sorry, don't remember their names - Mizuho?).

The other interesting thing I use those small PI xAKL carry to resources to Manila and I see this MASSIVE EXPLOSION DAMAGE message quite a lot when they get hit by bombs, as if the code treated resources as fuel transported as cargo.

The good thing is Kates and Mables only carry two bombs. I dread a mod which will switch their bombloads to 4 x 250 lb SAP bombs, and they will carpet-bomb main Allied shisp to raise their System damage.

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Post #: 8

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 7:58:19 PM

adarbrauner

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I always thought that was done to allow high level bombing B5N to hit something at Pearl and then it stuck;

but are you sure these results are always consistent?

I've noticed too anyhow a particular lethality of Kates while bombing (also ground objectives) but always tended to ascribe it to their high training level.

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Post #: 9

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/19/2018 8:04:56 PM

Yaab

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Well, there is the DL factor. They fly their own NavSearch from the CVLs and get 10/10 in DL on the ships. At the same time, some Kates from Formosa cannot hit the airfield at Wenchow. I wish someone could test the Coral Sea scenario and fill the CVs with TB groups only.

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Post #: 10

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/20/2018 8:04:12 PM

Dili

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You can do this with 50 quality pilots unit of either side. It is torpedo bombers that have a bombing code too optimistic.

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Post #: 11

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/20/2018 11:13:38 PM

mogami

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Hi, I am on my 5th restart verus Allied AI in order to learn game. The first time 3 beasts in PI sank a ship per turn till I sent Zeros after them. In the others they have not been a problem. Subs were also real killers in 1st game not so much since. I replaced the Nates in Malay with Oscars and cut losses significantly. Then i added Zeros. On the other side Betty and Nell miss and are shot down at rates where i have cut their range to try to prevent them flying without escort. (the larger portion of my air loss are those rouge groups that seem to fly without orders before I realized you do not see every air group at a base unless you scroll over (duh) One Sally group went from 27ac to 5 flying missions before I finally found it

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/20/2018 11:30:30 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

You can do this with 50 quality pilots unit of either side. It is torpedo bombers that have a bombing code too optimistic.

If you check the database in game, the bombs that torpedo bombers use in lieu of torpedoes has no greater accuracy that the equivalent bombs used by other aircraft.

You've posted two combat reports. In the first, the target was a slow merchant steamer. In other words an easy target. In the second, the hit rate for the torpedo bombers was 9%. Hardly amazing accuracy as you claim.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 13

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 12:01:09 AM

Dili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

You can do this with 50 quality pilots unit of either side. It is torpedo bombers that have a bombing code too optimistic.

If you check the database in game, the bombs that torpedo bombers use in lieu of torpedoes has no greater accuracy that the equivalent bombs used by other aircraft.

You've posted two combat reports. In the first, the target was a slow merchant steamer. In other words an easy target. In the second, the hit rate for the torpedo bombers was 9%. Hardly amazing accuracy as you claim.

Bold- irrelevant if the code for torpedo bombers is different than level bombers.

Not bold - i did not posted what you say i posted.

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Post #: 14

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 12:21:43 AM

spence

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From: Vancouver, Washington
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quote:

In the second, the hit rate for the torpedo bombers was 9%. Hardly amazing accuracy as you claim.

Actually that hit percentage is considerably higher than any belligerent achieved using level bombing against a moving ship in WW2.

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Post #: 15

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 12:38:31 AM

mogami

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Hi, In the attack on Force Z the Japanese scored 8 out of 49 torpedos. (16.3%) POW was hit by 3 after the first of many disabled her and reduced her speed. It is getting that first hit that reduces ship speed/maneuverability that is difficult. POW had dodged 19 torpedos before that first fatal (because of what was to come as a result) so then you get 7 of 30 (23.3 %)
It all depends on speed and maneuverability of target. The sooner that first torpedo hits the more probable future hits become. (in short it's luck)

Edit correction it was Repulse that had dodged 19 torpedos before being hit.

< Message edited by mogami -- 11/21/2018 12:43:12 AM >

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 12:49:31 AM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

You can do this with 50 quality pilots unit of either side. It is torpedo bombers that have a bombing code too optimistic.

If you check the database in game, the bombs that torpedo bombers use in lieu of torpedoes has no greater accuracy that the equivalent bombs used by other aircraft.

You've posted two combat reports. In the first, the target was a slow merchant steamer. In other words an easy target. In the second, the hit rate for the torpedo bombers was 9%. Hardly amazing accuracy as you claim.

Bold- irrelevant if the code for torpedo bombers is different than level bombers.

Not bold - i did not posted what you say i posted.

The only difference in code (as far as I'm aware) is that planes carrying torpedoes drop to 200ft before releasing their armament. When carrying bombs on naval attack they perform conventional NavB or LowNav attacks. They get no inherent advantages at naval attack than any other airframe.

Sorry, I thought I'd quoted Yaab's silliness and not yours.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 17

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 4:08:41 AM

mogami

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Hi, In 2 days off Kuantan The beasts have sank 11 transports. (I have Cap) However these are transports off loading not underway at sea. If there are four AC they score at least 1 hit. I think I need to suppress Singapore before trying to land

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Post #: 18

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 5:17:59 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
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From: Poland
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The Nells.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sibuyan at 80,82

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
TK Mindanao
DD Pillsbury

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 7000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Dickson at 49,80

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 6 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
HDML Panglima
HDML Pennigat
HDML Panji

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

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Post #: 19

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 6:04:41 AM

Yaab

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From: Poland
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Third-party AAR stuff (some data censored)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near .... at ....

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 35
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LST 408, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK ................, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
LST-745, Bomb hits 1
LST-736, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
LST-746, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-750, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
LST-740, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
LST 410, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B6N2a Jill bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

-----------------------------------------

70 bombs, 15 hits - almost 21% hit rate.

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Post #: 20

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 7:03:56 AM

mogami

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Hi, So transports off loading get hit more then ships at sea.

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/21/2018 2:17:10 PM

mind_messing

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Quote from TheElf.

quote:

Here are the answers for all those with panties in a proverbial bunch...Nice catch guys!

Attack bomber functions as:

1. Altitude set <6000, attack altitude is "low level". >6k' they are treated as normal LB at altitude selected.

2. AB flights are split up into pairs (or two pairs against land targets) if low level (doctrinal)

3. Due to the order of combat, the pair bomb target at 100 and then strafe at 100.

4. Strafing by AB adds to flak suppression. Higher SKILL_STRAFE value (70+) increases suppression more.

5. Non-attack Level Bombers bombing at <1000 gain a higher fatigue from the firing Flak.

6. Bombing accuracy for non-attack LB attacking at <6000 with low morale or high disruption is lowered.

7. Bombing accuracy of LB against TF at <7000 is reduced. AB accuracy is increased <6000.

@ Mike Sholl
8. No experience/skill minimum to execute an attack by non-AB planes but the attack impacted as mentioned above.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2558015

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Post #: 22

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 4:10:58 AM

spence

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The previous post seems to deal with Attack Bombers. 9% accuracy by Torpedo Bombers dropping bombs, especially from high altitude, is outlandishly unhistorical but since it seems that the game only allows obsolete Allied aircraft to hit anything at all its a great game mechanic. The key word is obsolete though. Too bad the Allies only get such meager replacements for their Vildebeests and Swordfish.

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 5:56:00 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Quote from TheElf.

quote:

Here are the answers for all those with panties in a proverbial bunch...Nice catch guys!

Attack bomber functions as:

1. Altitude set <6000, attack altitude is "low level". >6k' they are treated as normal LB at altitude selected.

2. AB flights are split up into pairs (or two pairs against land targets) if low level (doctrinal)

3. Due to the order of combat, the pair bomb target at 100 and then strafe at 100.

4. Strafing by AB adds to flak suppression. Higher SKILL_STRAFE value (70+) increases suppression more.

5. Non-attack Level Bombers bombing at <1000 gain a higher fatigue from the firing Flak.

6. Bombing accuracy for non-attack LB attacking at <6000 with low morale or high disruption is lowered.

7. Bombing accuracy of LB against TF at <7000 is reduced. AB accuracy is increased <6000.

@ Mike Sholl
8. No experience/skill minimum to execute an attack by non-AB planes but the attack impacted as mentioned above.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2558015

That post is very old. At least three years ago an update changed the threshold for Low Level bombing to < 2000 feet. Against targets with poor AA I often bomb at 3000 feet (above most IJ MGs) - makes quite a difference compared to 6K. During that update, glide bombing was eliminated and there may have been some changes to bombing accuracy calculations.

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Post #: 24

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 5:56:31 AM

Yaab

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Well, I will continue gathering combat reports with TBs bombing, but I already have a hunch why Devastators got the name - they devastate enemy TFs by bombing them from high altitude.

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Post #: 25

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 10:13:20 AM

Dili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

You can do this with 50 quality pilots unit of either side. It is torpedo bombers that have a bombing code too optimistic.

If you check the database in game, the bombs that torpedo bombers use in lieu of torpedoes has no greater accuracy that the equivalent bombs used by other aircraft.

You've posted two combat reports. In the first, the target was a slow merchant steamer. In other words an easy target. In the second, the hit rate for the torpedo bombers was 9%. Hardly amazing accuracy as you claim.

Bold- irrelevant if the code for torpedo bombers is different than level bombers.

Not bold - i did not posted what you say i posted.

The only difference in code (as far as I'm aware) is that planes carrying torpedoes drop to 200ft before releasing their armament. When carrying bombs on naval attack they perform conventional NavB or LowNav attacks. They get no inherent advantages at naval attack than any other airframe.

Sorry, I thought I'd quoted Yaab's silliness and not yours.

Well you don't know, neither do i the code. But the results are clearly different from a bomber.

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 12:10:34 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Quote from TheElf.

quote:

Here are the answers for all those with panties in a proverbial bunch...Nice catch guys!

Attack bomber functions as:

1. Altitude set <6000, attack altitude is "low level". >6k' they are treated as normal LB at altitude selected.

2. AB flights are split up into pairs (or two pairs against land targets) if low level (doctrinal)

3. Due to the order of combat, the pair bomb target at 100 and then strafe at 100.

4. Strafing by AB adds to flak suppression. Higher SKILL_STRAFE value (70+) increases suppression more.

5. Non-attack Level Bombers bombing at <1000 gain a higher fatigue from the firing Flak.

6. Bombing accuracy for non-attack LB attacking at <6000 with low morale or high disruption is lowered.

7. Bombing accuracy of LB against TF at <7000 is reduced. AB accuracy is increased <6000.

@ Mike Sholl
8. No experience/skill minimum to execute an attack by non-AB planes but the attack impacted as mentioned above.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2558015

That post is very old. At least three years ago an update changed the threshold for Low Level bombing to < 2000 feet. Against targets with poor AA I often bomb at 3000 feet (above most IJ MGs) - makes quite a difference compared to 6K. During that update, glide bombing was eliminated and there may have been some changes to bombing accuracy calculations.

Have you a source for that? Just as I've a post from Alfred suggesting otherwise-

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2752253

The value of Alfred is that he's rarely wrong.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 27

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 12:25:44 PM

Rising-Sun

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From: Clifton Park, NY
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Well not only that, but I did find something odds that I-153 Russian Fighter Plane had extreme agility and extreme accurate with those guns. So did some research and find that, that plane did having trouble hitting the targets due to really agile airframe. The airframe are so small and can be difficult to fly straight with the stick and wouldn't take much of left or right, up and down would be too much. Larger airframes such as P-51s or Spitfires have better Aerodynamics, but some having lower agile turn depend on the speed and weight, etc.

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RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/22/2018 3:59:57 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Quote from TheElf.

quote:

Here are the answers for all those with panties in a proverbial bunch...Nice catch guys!

Attack bomber functions as:

1. Altitude set <6000, attack altitude is "low level". >6k' they are treated as normal LB at altitude selected.

2. AB flights are split up into pairs (or two pairs against land targets) if low level (doctrinal)

3. Due to the order of combat, the pair bomb target at 100 and then strafe at 100.

4. Strafing by AB adds to flak suppression. Higher SKILL_STRAFE value (70+) increases suppression more.

5. Non-attack Level Bombers bombing at <1000 gain a higher fatigue from the firing Flak.

6. Bombing accuracy for non-attack LB attacking at <6000 with low morale or high disruption is lowered.

7. Bombing accuracy of LB against TF at <7000 is reduced. AB accuracy is increased <6000.

@ Mike Sholl
8. No experience/skill minimum to execute an attack by non-AB planes but the attack impacted as mentioned above.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2558015

That post is very old. At least three years ago an update changed the threshold for Low Level bombing to < 2000 feet. Against targets with poor AA I often bomb at 3000 feet (above most IJ MGs) - makes quite a difference compared to 6K. During that update, glide bombing was eliminated and there may have been some changes to bombing accuracy calculations.

Have you a source for that? Just as I've a post from Alfred suggesting otherwise-

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2752253

The value of Alfred is that he's rarely wrong.

The thread you are referencing is dated in 2011, just a couple of years after the game came out. I could not find the list of official patches with the change lists, but I am sure that is where I first saw the stuff about the changes in altitude for low/high and elimination of glide bombing. You can test it yourself - set a fighter unit to train ground attack for one or two days at 2000 feet. The experience gains will be in the GrdB category, not LowG.

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Post #: 29

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy - 11/23/2018 5:17:44 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

That post is very old. At least three years ago an update changed the threshold for Low Level bombing to < 2000 feet. Against targets with poor AA I often bomb at 3000 feet (above most IJ MGs) - makes quite a difference compared to 6K. During that update, glide bombing was eliminated and there may have been some changes to bombing accuracy calculations.

quote:

Have you a source for that?

I don't have a source either, but I can tell you that its obvious some changes were made. I consistently bomb with LB below 5k, especially in China and bombers bomb with a full bomb load. When the game came out these were supposed to use the the reduced extended range BL.

Just what all the changes were I could not say, just that some were made.

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Post #: 30