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AI Artillery - Help Me Understand

 
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AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/15/2018 10:58:35 AM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Gents:

I am commanding NATO in "FPG_B3_A Thin Tan Line_NM"

A 14 minute Command Cycle starts for the British (NATO).

Warsaw PAC is 2/3 into a 21 minute Command Cycle.

A NATO Milan unit (Not spotted) spots, targets and fires on WP recce units attempting to cross the Rensen River. Several WP recce are destroyed.

ONE MINUTE after NATO fires on the now spotted WP recce units, WP artillery bombards the not spotted NATO Milan unit (Dug In posture) in an urban hex!

How the heck is WP artillery able to shift fire so quickly and do it while in the tail end of their 21 minute Command Cycle?

That's some good shooting Tex!

Can someone "educate" me here? What am I missing?

< Message edited by kool_kat -- 11/15/2018 12:14:43 PM >

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein
Post #: 1
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/15/2018 4:06:25 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Kool_kat, do you have a save game file that covers the event that we could review? My best guess is you where seen by the Soviet recon and they had Direct Support artillery. If that was the case, fire can be called down in a couple minutes. Also a chance it was a pre-planned area. Would need to see the game turn to really know.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 2
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/15/2018 4:59:54 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Hey Jim:

I only have a saved game file immediately following the described event.

I accept your explanation and will move forward with my game!

Thanks for the prompt reply sir.

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 3
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/16/2018 12:55:03 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Hey Jim:

Also, I have noted that the British artillery (Abbot 105mm SPAs) are 100% ineffective against ANY WP targets!

I have initiated dozens of bombardments against moving and stationary WP units (BMPs, T74s, ADs, etc.) and have been unable to register a SINGLE kill.

My only recourse in this scenario is to put the four Abbot batteries in Counter Battery and hope they can disrupt some of the WP arty.

Is it working as intended?

On Version 2.0.14.

< Message edited by kool_kat -- 11/16/2018 1:03:18 PM >

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 4
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/16/2018 1:08:11 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		I will check the data files and make sure we don't have errors in the numbers. Also could be some bad luck as well. How many tubes and what level of bombardment are you using?

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 5
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/16/2018 1:13:09 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

I will check the data files and make sure we don't have errors in the numbers. Also could be some bad luck as well. How many tubes and what level of bombardment are you using?


Hey Jim:

4 tubes / battery

Neutralizing Fire for all bombardments.

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 6
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/19/2018 6:35:29 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

I will check the data files and make sure we don't have errors in the numbers. Also could be some bad luck as well. How many tubes and what level of bombardment are you using?


Hey Jim:

And the answer is?


< Message edited by kool_kat -- 11/24/2018 12:41:43 AM >

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 7
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/26/2018 10:44:50 AM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Hey Jim:

Hopefully you have returned from celebrating Thanksgiving... and have an answer on the British artillery anomaly?

BTW, even with the NATO artillery not registering a single kill in the scenario, I was able to crush the AI controlled WP!



_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 8
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/26/2018 2:49:41 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Below is a pic of the random distribution of 12 rounds (4 tubes and 3 shot Deliberate fire) against the footprint (gray box) of 30 IFVs. As you can see, there is a lot more miss than hit going on. The 105mm shell has a small lethal footprint. It will take a fair number of rounds to secure a hit and even a good red spot hit to knockout a vehicle (armor depending of course). I think the game is working as intended. You will need to shoot more round on the target to secure a hit or two. Even thought you are not getting fall outs or kills, the barrage still impacts the target unit(s) readiness.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 9
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/26/2018 2:56:29 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		For Comparison, here is 8 tubes of M109 155mm artillery on the same setup. Much easier to get hits and kills with the larger burst and more round in the box.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CapnDarwin -- 11/26/2018 2:57:10 PM >

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 10
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/26/2018 3:17:35 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Hey Jim:

Makes sense to me. Thanks for the explanation and diagrams!

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 11
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 11/26/2018 3:19:58 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Sorry I was so slow getting back to you.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 12
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 12/24/2018 11:59:25 AM   
ctcharger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 3/12/2017
From: Akron, OH
Status: offline 		Wow... the difference in the 2 diagrams is just mind blowing...even in 2018....

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 13
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/18/2019 1:36:41 PM   
rgeiger


Posts: 13
Joined: 1/20/2019
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Sorry to re-awake this old thread but I am also somewhat puzzled by my Abbots' behaviour.

I am currently playing "A Thin Tan Line". Im a bit more than 50% in and my 4 off-map batteries of 4 Abbots each have not registered a single kill even against stationary HQ units (using neutralizing all the time). I guess the diagrams explain why (having been first trained on 105mm howitzers, it is a bit embarassing to me how little they do ).

What I don't understand is that after I give any of my batteries a neutralizing barrage and designate 3 hexes to strike (at that time, the unit display panel states 3 neutralizing fire missions each about 5 minutes apart), they execute the first fire mission to the first designated hex after about 5 minutes. After this first mission, they stop firing. They remain marked as being in a barrage but in the UDP, the expected time until they fire on the second hex just goes up and up (always 15 minutes after the round starts), but they never fire the second mission until I manually define a new barrage (wasting a command with limited staff orders active). I don't really understand what is keeping them from firing again. I've never seen this in other scenarios. What am I missing or which mechanic do I fail to take into account?

Thanks,
Reto


EDIT: Typo

< Message edited by rgeiger -- 3/18/2019 1:38:17 PM >

(in reply to ctcharger)
Post #: 14
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/18/2019 3:06:12 PM   
StuccoFresco

 

Posts: 546
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		That's really strange! Have you tried rebooting the game and trying again?

(in reply to rgeiger)
Post #: 15
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/18/2019 3:26:16 PM   
rgeiger


Posts: 13
Joined: 1/20/2019
Status: offline 		Yes, I started the scenario last week and loaded it again now. It still happens. If I remember correctly, the same thing happened in the same scenario when I attempted it earlier in a different playthrough. But I've only ever seen it in this one scenario. It could still be some peculiarity of the Abbots, as I've never seen it happen anywhere else.

EDIT: Maybe particularly aggressive CB fire by the Pact forces?

< Message edited by rgeiger -- 3/18/2019 3:27:39 PM >

(in reply to StuccoFresco)
Post #: 16
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/30/2019 10:08:20 AM   
HeinzBaby


Posts: 174
Joined: 12/1/2014
From: WEST AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Just finished this senario again and have to concure with Cool_Kat & rgeiger, my Abbots didn't hit a sausage..

CapnDarwin's artillery fire charts explain alot, - 3 fire missions per 4 tubes within a 500m area (1 hex)

But, as said before the 105mm Abbots destroyed nothing all game, it came to a point where I could not trust them for critical fire missions.
The 105mm Abbot's 'area' fire value is the same as the FV432 81mm Mortars at '4'.
These on map FV432 81 Mortars did stirling work, suppressing and destroying their targets.
Is it possible there is an undetected bug?..

For reference I've listed 'area' values for other artillery types.

UK 51 mor 2 area
UK 81 mor 4 area
SU 82 mor 4 area
UK 105 Abbot 4 area
US 4.2" mor (106mm) 6 area
SU 122 D-30 6 area
GE 120 mor 7 area
SU 152 D-20 8 area
NATO 155 8 area


_____________________________

Heia Safari

(in reply to rgeiger)
Post #: 17
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/30/2019 5:43:05 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		HeinzBaby, When I get some time from my current workload, I'll peel back and look at that 105mm SA value. A quick look, it does look like the 105/106s shoulds be at SA=5 and the 120/122s at SA=6. I will be reviewing and reworking the formulation and curves with better data in Southern. Feel free to tweak user files and test again.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to HeinzBaby)
Post #: 18
RE: AI Artillery - Help Me Understand - 3/31/2019 3:35:54 PM   
IronMikeGolf

 

Posts: 899
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Heinzbaby:
1. The area (SA) value of arty and mortars is proportion to filler weight. Mm for mm in caliber, mortars have more filler than guns. That's owing to the lower pressure (interior ballistics-wise) of mortars. That leads to less weigh of the shell being steel to withstand the stress of firing
2. So, generally, any given caliber of mortar will have a higher Area fire value than a comparable gun/howitzer
3. Effectiveness of indirect fire is sensitive to Readiness of the firing unit. You will get significantly more kills/fall out above 75% Readiness than below, say, 50%.

_____________________________

Jeff
Sua Sponte

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 19
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