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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

 
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 6:19:09 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/24/indian-prime-minister-modi-endorses-britain-paying-damages-for-colonial-rule

warspite1

I almost fell off my chair laughing at that. For sheer earth shattering hypocrisy it's a hoot. Firstly this is not specific to the Bengal Famine, but moreover consider this.

India receives economic aid (from the UK amongst others). It is the country with the highest population living below the poverty line. So just what the hell do they have a space program for???? Mmmmm..... syphoning cash away for the poor, the homeless, those without access to fresh water - in order that they can say they have a space program.....

Yes of course they would like comp-en-say-shun from the UK - it will help with the costs of their stated aim of putting a man into space....


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Post #: 121
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 6:32:26 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The military necessity argument just doesn't hold up. The actual military value of the denial of rice and small boats is tiny, in comparison to the massive implications it has for the civilian population.

warspite1

I mentioned military necessity in the wider term. I've already agreed with you about the denial policy in terms of the effect on the Japanese - if only you could be bothered to read my posts (after all that would be the courteous thing to do if you are going to comment critically on someone's posts).

But let's be crystal clear here: In World War II British military leaders and civilian government make totally rubbish decision in prosecution of the war. Wow, that's hardly a first is it? I don't think India can claim exclusive, and certainly not first, dibs on that do you????

But no hindsight allowed. It may have been a rubbish decision - but it appears worse because the Japanese didn't invade, not until 1944 anyway. But the military and the politicians didn't have the advantage of hindsight. Given the collapse in Malaya, Singapore and Burma in very quick order, and the lack of troops to counter any move into India, it made sense at the time to those who took the decision. Where is the proof that anyone was thinking of mass murder and famine? The denial policy was supposed to affect surplus stocks. But things are so easy with hindsight. I mean those that took the decision knew a cyclone would hit, knew the effects of war inflation, had a clear plan of how the Indian war economy would grow, the speculators, the land taken up by new airfields and displacement of the populace etc. etc. etc. Life so much easier looking back isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The denial of rice is of little value as the Japanese would be living off their own rations.


warspite1

Have you read about the war in Burma?? That sentence gave me a chuckle anyway.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/22/2018 6:43:42 PM >


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Post #: 122
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 8:10:35 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Both Linlithgow and Wavell made appeals to HMG for food. It's worth noting where shipping directives came from: London.


I don't understand why you are not getting this point. I mean, I don't mean I expect you to agree with me, I just want you to understand - so that you can at least tell me what you think I'm missing.

Both made appeals? Yes, you've said it, I've said it. Every article has said it. When I suggested there was food shortage elsewhere in India you said I was wrong. Soooooo. Why? If the amount of food delivered was negligible (I think that was the word Wiki used) then where did the food that Wavell used come from? If it was from within India - where it had apparently been all along, why did Linlithgow not order its use earlier and why instead did he ask Churchill for more food?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The following article goes in to some detail as to the important role boats played in the planting season -

warspite1

Again this doesn't answer the point I raised. The last report you posted said the Denial policy adversely affected the planting in 1942 and 1943. I think that is not difficult to agree could have been an effect. BUT... if that is so then how did a 'Bumper' crop in 1943 happen? That was the question. There is a disconnect between adversely affect and bumper crop...


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/22/2018 8:12:02 PM >


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Post #: 123
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 8:16:08 PM   
RangerJoe


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How about the UK charging for freeing India from the muslim conquerors? How about the UK charging for the language that ties all of India together?

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 124
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 9:35:07 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/24/indian-prime-minister-modi-endorses-britain-paying-damages-for-colonial-rule

warspite1

I almost fell off my chair laughing at that. For sheer earth shattering hypocrisy it's a hoot. Firstly this is not specific to the Bengal Famine, but moreover consider this.

India receives economic aid (from the UK amongst others). It is the country with the highest population living below the poverty line. So just what the hell do they have a space program for???? Mmmmm..... syphoning cash away for the poor, the homeless, those without access to fresh water - in order that they can say they have a space program.....

Yes of course they would like comp-en-say-shun from the UK - it will help with the costs of their stated aim of putting a man into space....



This is completely off-topic but:

1. It was imperial preference to keep India industrially undeveloped to serve as a closed market for British manufactured goods.

2. Investment in a space program is not as counter-intuitive as you would think, especially not for India. There are a great deal of technological aspects to a space program that can be applied in everyday life, even in India (eg hydroponics, medical advances, technology such as solar panels ect).

It's no secret that the British position as a world power was built on the exploitation of the lands and peoples within the Empire.

quote:

Where is the proof that anyone was thinking of mass murder and famine?


When there was deliberate obstruction of relief shipments. The links previously regarding WSC's conduct. He's been asked, and he's not giving it. His justifications (such as they are) don't stand up.

quote:

Both made appeals? Yes, you've said it, I've said it. Every article has said it. When I suggested there was food shortage elsewhere in India you said I was wrong. Soooooo. Why? If the amount of food delivered was negligible (I think that was the word Wiki used) then where did the food that Wavell used come from? If it was from within India - where it had apparently been all along, why did Linlithgow not order its use earlier and why instead did he ask Churchill for more food?


It's clear from Wavell's diary extract that he was expecting the food to come from HMG.

Linlithgow evidently expected the same, based on his communications to Amery and London.

As to why Linlithgow did not source food locally from within India: consider this - https://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1468-0289.2008.00435.x

In particular, the following extract from pg 30-31: "It reveals that Linlithgow told Chief Minister Fazlul Huq in early 1943 that ‘he simply must produce more rice out of Bengal for Ceylon even if Bengal itself went short!’and hoping that he might ‘screw a little out of them’"

quote:

Again this doesn't answer the point I raised. The last report you posted said the Denial policy adversely affected the planting in 1942 and 1943. I think that is not difficult to agree could have been an effect. BUT... if that is so then how did a 'Bumper' crop in 1943 happen? That was the question. There is a disconnect between adversely affect and bumper crop...


The bumper rice crop has been attributed to more land being dedicated to rice farming than had previously.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 125
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/22/2018 10:08:17 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

The bumper rice crop has been attributed to more land being dedicated to rice farming than had previously.


In other words, Bengal could have grown more rice before the famine even started. So how is that the fault of the UK government that this was not done?

The report also indicated that the people were eating more. If that was the case, than previous predictions of how much food was needed was too low but did anyone bring that up? Did anyone suggest to the people that rationing their food might be necessary?

How come you haven't mentioned the famine in the Ukraine in the 1930's when there was no war?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 126
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 2:27:22 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

How come you haven't mentioned the famine in the Ukraine in the 1930's when there was no war?


Because only the good can even aspire to be perfect. Stalin and his "dictatorship of the proletariat" needed first to aspire to being good.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 127
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 5:23:45 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

This is completely off-topic but:

2. Investment in a space program is not as counter-intuitive as you would think, especially not for India. There are a great deal of technological aspects to a space program that can be applied in everyday life, even in India (eg hydroponics, medical advances, technology such as solar panels ect).

warspite1

Sorry but you took it off topic. I enquired why (if they hadn't) the Indian Government had not sought reparations specifically for The Bengal Famine given the weight of evidence of a crime against humanity that you suggest is available. I was not talking about colonial rule generally and it was you that provided the article above.

India is now a country in its own right and, as such, it can spend what the hell it likes on what it likes and good luck to them. You can make whatever excuses and justifications you like for their space program - but no, you REALLY don't NEED to put a man in space to research how to get clean water to your population - while so many live in abject poverty and without access to clean water, medical care etc. But we'll leave this because it enters modern day politics and that is not what this is about.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 7:38:14 AM >


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Post #: 128
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 5:32:01 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

Where is the proof that anyone was thinking of mass murder and famine?


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

When there was deliberate obstruction of relief shipments. The links previously regarding WSC's conduct. He's been asked, and he's not giving it. His justifications (such as they are) don't stand up.

warspite1

No you are confusing the issues - whether intentionally or not I don't know. My comment was specifically about, and in response to, your comment on the Denial Policy. Nothing to do with shipments or lack thereof once the crisis had developed.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 7:38:33 AM >


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Post #: 129
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 5:49:00 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

Again this doesn't answer the point I raised. The last report you posted said the Denial policy adversely affected the planting in 1942 and 1943. I think that is not difficult to agree could have been an effect. BUT... if that is so then how did a 'Bumper' crop in 1943 happen? That was the question. There is a disconnect between adversely affect and bumper crop...


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The bumper rice crop has been attributed to more land being dedicated to rice farming than had previously.

warspite1

Interesting. Where did that come from? Other sources state that the Denial Policy (allied to fear of Japanese invasion) saw a large displacement of people - and so affecting food production. The war situation also meant farming land being taken by the military for camps, airfields etc. So I am more than a little bemused by all the contradictions. Denial Policy as per Law-Smith meant the harvests for 1942 and 1943 were adversely affected, and according to some - including you - Denial Policy was the start of the problem. But you are saying more land was dedicated to rice farming which allowed for a bumper crop in 1943 despite the fact that during 1943 people - a great many people - were dying of starvation and disease.... Also, if its true, who directed that more land be made available for rice farming? How did that happen? Are you suggesting the Government did something right?

Sorry but words and figures differ here.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 7:40:22 AM >


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Post #: 130
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 6:18:55 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

Both made appeals? Yes, you've said it, I've said it. Every article has said it. When I suggested there was food shortage elsewhere in India you said I was wrong. Soooooo. Why? If the amount of food delivered was negligible (I think that was the word Wiki used) then where did the food that Wavell used come from? If it was from within India - where it had apparently been all along, why did Linlithgow not order its use earlier and why instead did he ask Churchill for more food?


It's clear from Wavell's diary extract that he was expecting the food to come from HMG.

Linlithgow evidently expected the same, based on his communications to Amery and London.

As to why Linlithgow did not source food locally from within India: consider this - https://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1468-0289.2008.00435.x

warspite1

Apologies for being thick but I can't see any reference in this article to the point in bold. Obviously I am not talking about the period during which Linlithgow did not think there was an issue, but from the time he realised that there most definitely was and that as Viceroy he really ought to do something about it.... From the articles you've provided, we know he had the necessary powers, so why did he not react? Especially when London - apparently - wasn't sending the required foodstuffs.

You've put Wavell first, but he comes later. By the time he becomes Viceroy the damage has been done. His involvement is of course important to the overall story but the famine was in force and killing people before he came on the scene. So his involvement is more about my questions on the contradictions of how the famine actually ended.

At the end of the day the picture remains confusing and is necessarily so. As said previously we can't piece the story together from what is available to us. There is too much missing data.

But this was another interesting article that - you will be surprised to hear! - asks more questions than it answers. Not least is the timing in all this. Mukerjee states that one of Churchill's 'crimes' was sending circa 60% of shipping to the Atlantic from the Indian Ocean in January 1943. This was done at a time that Delhi was apparently screaming at London for more food. But this article does not support that. You yourself quoted the comment from Linlithgow to Chief Minister Huq in early 1943. The article also states that as late as July 1943 Herbert, the Bengal Governor, (who had been a staunch advocate of the sufficiency position) now pleaded for more help from Linlithgow, and it wasn't until September that the Viceroy appeared to realise there was a problem. So why would he have been screaming at London nine months earlier? So what did London know in late 1942/early 1943 when the decision to send the ships to the Atlantic was made? See what I mean about a proper timeline?

I liked the last line of the article which I thought was fair.

As far as the two million and more who perished in Bengal are concerned, the conclusion seems inescapable. They were in the main unwitting, unwilling colonial casualties of a struggle not of their making, but a key struggle nonetheless, that against fascism.

Nice to know that some people recognise there was a life and death struggle - also known as World War II - going on.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 7:42:08 AM >


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Post #: 131
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 6:37:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

The bumper rice crop has been attributed to more land being dedicated to rice farming than had previously.


In other words, Bengal could have grown more rice before the famine even started. So how is that the fault of the UK government that this was not done?

The report also indicated that the people were eating more. If that was the case, than previous predictions of how much food was needed was too low but did anyone bring that up? Did anyone suggest to the people that rationing their food might be necessary?

How come you haven't mentioned the famine in the Ukraine in the 1930's when there was no war?
warspite1

To be fair it is up to the Government to ensure its people are fed surely? And in 1943-44 the Government of India, with a Viceroy at the head, was where the bucked stopped. If rationing were introduced - and I think rationing for the average Indian was a different proposition to that for a western person - then again, that was for the Government of India to put in place. There is little distinction between the Government of India or the British Government in this regard.

Not sure why you've mentioned the famine in the Ukraine (so apologies if I've misunderstood). Unlike the Bengal Famine (which was non-deliberate and the result of a perfect storm of man-made and natural factors during a world war) the famine in the Soviet Union was a direct result of Stalin's war on the Kulaks and his enforced collectivisation policy. This was an example of a deliberate act of starvation for a political reasons and the enforcement of an ideological goal.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 7:24:49 AM >


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Post #: 132
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 6:50:00 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's no secret that the British position as a world power was built on the exploitation of the lands and peoples within the Empire.

warspite1

Well it also stems from being the world's first industrialised nation. Other nations had a head start on the whole empire building malarchy. The British, for a whole variety of reasons, were more successful than others.

But we've done this. Picking on the 'evils of empire' does not advance any argument here. By the standards of today we (hopefully) are all in agreement that they are not right and confined to history (also hopefully). Are you suggesting that the actions of other empires have been any different? In many cases they have been much worse.


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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 7:48:34 AM   
Dili

 

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Most empires were more of a burden than economically advantage, their propose was more of denial in competition with other European colonial powers.

In case of India i very much doubt that would be today a Democracy without Western European Colonialism. Without it probably it would have Communism (which is btw is another sort of European colonialism) and a Mao figure with millions of deaths...

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Post #: 134
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 7:54:59 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Most empires were more of a burden than economically advantage, their propose was more of denial in competition with other European colonial powers.

In case of India i very much doubt that would be today a Democracy without Western European Colonialism. Without it probably it would have Communism (which is btw is another sort of European colonialism) and a Mao figure with millions of deaths...
warspite1

Difficult to see how India would not have been subject to colonialism. If it wasn't the British then it would have been the French - or maybe more than one power would have carved her up e.g. The Dutch, Portuguese, British and French. Who knows? But whichever way, I don't think she would have escaped being someone's colony.


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Post #: 135
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 11:36:26 AM   
RangerJoe


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In a sense it was already a colony. The muslim conquerors were not native Indian ethnic groups and they controlled the north and western parts of India. They were probably working on the rest of the subcontinent.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 136
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 1:27:25 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

Sorry but you took it off topic. I enquired why (if they hadn't) the Indian Government had not sought reparations specifically for The Bengal Famine given the weight of evidence of a crime against humanity that you suggest is available. I was not talking about colonial rule generally and it was you that provided the article above. India is now a country in its own right and, as such, it can spend what the hell it likes on what it likes and good luck to them. You can make whatever excuses and justifications you like for their space program - but no, you REALLY don't NEED to put a man in space to research how to get clean water to your population - while so many live in abject poverty and without access to clean water, medical care etc. But we'll leave this because it enters modern day politics and that is not what this is about.


I could also say that the UK Government doesn't NEED aircraft carriers (with no aircraft, no less) when austerity policies are gutting the country is absurd, but such is life.

At least a space program has the merit of trying to advance the progress of humanity.

But we're way off topic now.

quote:

No you are confusing the issues - whether intentionally or not I don't know. My comment was specifically about, and in response to, your comment on the Denial Policy. Nothing to do with shipments or lack thereof once the crisis had developed.


In regards to the denial policy, there's not been much evidence I can find as to who ordered it specifically. Pinnell was in charge of it but it seems like a move that the military would clamor for.

quote:

Interesting. Where did that come from? Other sources state that the Denial Policy (allied to fear of Japanese invasion) saw a large displacement of people - and so affecting food production. The war situation also meant farming land being taken by the military for camps, airfields etc. So I am more than a little bemused by all the contradictions. Denial Policy as per Law-Smith meant the harvests for 1942 and 1943 were adversely affected, and according to some - including you - Denial Policy was the start of the problem. But you are saying more land was dedicated to rice farming which allowed for a bumper crop in 1943 despite the fact that during 1943 people - a great many people - were dying of starvation and disease.... Also, if its true, who directed that more land be made available for rice farming? How did that happen? Are you suggesting the Government did something right?


https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.2307/2055450

Keep in mind I refer specifically to only the rice crop.

I find your logic hard to follow - if there is a serious food shortage, there is an effort on all levels to ensure an end to the shortage, hence the increased cultivation of rice.

Well, except from some in London, they weren't too bothered by the problem.


quote:

Apologies...required foodstuff


Let me spell it out for you. It is Jan 1943. The price of rice is all over the place due to the various factors at work. The harvest is short and the traditional carry over rice from the previous harvest has been taken away by the British. Oh, and they've taken the livestock and the small boats as well, just for good measure.

Then, in Jan of '43, just before the death rate spikes, you've Linlithgow giving the order to move rice to Celyon...???

By May, you've the districts reporting death by starvation.

quote:

From the articles you've provided, we know he had the necessary powers, so why did he not react? Especially when London - apparently - wasn't sending the required foodstuffs.


Linlithgow (I feel) bears a great deal of responsibility for the mishandling of the famine. The desire to move food out of Bengal in Jan of '43 and the failure to declare a state of famine don't make up a solid track record.

quote:


I liked the last line of the article which I thought was fair.

As far as the two million and more who perished in Bengal are concerned, the conclusion seems inescapable. They were in the main unwitting, unwilling colonial casualties of a struggle not of their making, but a key struggle nonetheless, that against fascism.

Nice to know that some people recognise there was a life and death struggle - also known as World War II - going on.


You'd have been better reading the whole paragraph.

"official denial was evident in both cases, each in the service of what was deemed a higher ordeal".

Did so many need to starve to beat fascism? I don't think so.

The thing is warspite, I get where you're coming from, I really do. There was a war on and it had to be won. The overwhelming sense I get from reading the actual documents is that nobody in any position of authority in India could see the trees for the forest. When discussing famine relief, it's all tied back to the war effort; the fact that it's millions of people dying is never really ackowledged until Wavell gets on the scene. I wonder that had the famine not impacted the war effort, that there would have been no relief for it at all...
The things that really irk me about this little bit of imperial history are:

- The stark difference with the resolution of the Dutch famine.
- The fact that in 1943 Britain has record food stockpiles while Bengal starved (need to double check that figure with a better source).
- The downsizing, misuse and outright denial of food shipments to relieve the famine on behalf of WSC at no cost to the war effort.

If there's insufficent evidence for legal failings, there's an abundance of evidence for a moral failure to do more.

quote:

Most empires were more of a burden than economically advantage, their propose was more of denial in competition with other European colonial powers.

In case of India i very much doubt that would be today a Democracy without Western European Colonialism. Without it probably it would have Communism (which is btw is another sort of European colonialism) and a Mao figure with millions of deaths...



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 137
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 5:14:58 PM   
warspite1


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Can I ask a favour m_m -where there is more than one poster you are quoting from can you use a different post for each (poster that is, not post!) or provide the name? Thank-you.

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Post #: 138
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 9:42:39 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

At least a space program has the merit of trying to advance the progress of humanity.

warspite1

Well I'm sure the lofty ideals of progressing humanity is great comfort to those dying needlessly for the lack of clean water....

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I find your logic hard to follow - if there is a serious food shortage, there is an effort on all levels to ensure an end to the shortage, hence the increased cultivation of rice.

warspite1

There is an effort on all levels to ensure an end to the shortage? But you were saying that wasn't the case. But if someone in the Government had decided more effort was needed, how was this possible with the effects of displacement due to the Denial Policy, millions dead or dying and land being taken up by the military? Makes no sense. Again there is something missing here. You've said the deaths were a deliberate act. So why was the Central Government seeking to increase food growing? I thought your whole premise was that the British couldn't give a flying one about their colonial subjects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Well, except from some in London, they weren't too bothered by the problem.

warspite1

Funny I thought the Government of India and the Regional Governments were there to Govern.

[Clerk] Lord Linlithgow sir! Terrible news. We've run out of paper clips!

[Lord Linlithgow] My god! Cable the War Cabinet at once!

At what stage in the crisis London was first alerted I don't know, but I suspect the initial reaction would have been something along the lines of "Well what are we paying him for? Get the Viceroy to take his finger out of his behind and do something - I'm kind of busy looking at this World War we're fighting...."

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Then, in Jan of '43, just before the death rate spikes.....

warspite1

I thought that was October 1943?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Linlithgow (I feel) bears a great deal of responsibility for the mishandling of the famine.

warspite1

I agree. Although that is caveated because we have only selected comments. But from the picture I'm getting it was his Government that needed to step in once the Bengal Government realised this was too big for them, he had powers to act (assuming he had surplus to play with) and he didn't - or rather he did, but he was slow to act and the remedies employed were ineffective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The thing is warspite, I get where you're coming from, I really do. There was a war on and it had to be won. The overwhelming sense I get from reading the actual documents is that nobody in any position of authority in India could see the trees for the forest. When discussing famine relief, it's all tied back to the war effort; the fact that it's millions of people dying is never really ackowledged until Wavell gets on the scene. I wonder that had the famine not impacted the war effort, that there would have been no relief for it at all...
The things that really irk me about this little bit of imperial history are:

- The stark difference with the resolution of the Dutch famine.
- The fact that in 1943 Britain has record food stockpiles while Bengal starved (need to double check that figure with a better source).
- The downsizing, misuse and outright denial of food shipments to relieve the famine on behalf of WSC at no cost to the war effort.

If there's insufficent evidence for legal failings, there's an abundance of evidence for a moral failure to do more.

warspite1

You may get where I'm coming from but at the end of the day you believe this was a crime against humanity and a deliberate act and I don't. If its any consolation, I get where you are coming from - though I hope its sheer bloody anger at so many deaths rather than political leanings that make you believe the worst of the British Government at the time. The number involved is sickening.

But I guess we are where we are, and unless someone can unearth a smoking gun somewhere from either end of the spectrum, we are not going to alter our positions.

- Holland vs Bengal - we are not going to agree on this so we'll agree to disagree - and we haven't even mentioned this was 1944, whereas the seeds of the Bengal Famine was sown in 1942. The war was going very differently then - and that is aside from the arguments previously made as to why the two situations can't be usefully compared.

- The record food stockpiles have to be seen in context. How was the Battle of the Atlantic going in 1942? Those food stockpiles have to feed the UK and the growing army preparing for future deployment in Europe. The German U-Boats had already had a second 'happy time'. We now know there was not to be a third. Could Britain really afford to gamble on that? One thing we know about the Germans is how many times they surprised the Allies in WW2. A new technology a new weapon and the Battle of the Atlantic could turn. As said, if the UK go down then India is in far more trouble.

How was the war generally going in 1942 - and specifically in the Middle East and the USSR? WE KNOW how the war turned out so of course ships could be spared. But HMG didn't have that luxury of hindsight.

- I still haven't seen any proper evidence on what exactly was asked for when, by who and what was actually delivered. I've certainly seen nothing that makes me think there was a deliberate policy to murder 3m Indians.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/23/2018 10:09:23 PM >


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Post #: 139
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/23/2018 9:50:47 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:



quote:


In case of India i very much doubt that would be today a Democracy without Western European Colonialism. Without it probably it would have Communism (which is btw is another sort of European colonialism) and a Mao figure with millions of deaths...





You can show disgust but caste system came from where or the widow burning in a fire pyre when the husband died?



< Message edited by Dili -- 11/23/2018 9:51:32 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 140
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/27/2018 5:27:02 PM   
warspite1


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I've started reading Mukerjee's book Churchill's Secret War. I'm only on the prologue at the moment but there have been few surprises.

I think "Once upon a time" would have been a better opening line based on what came after. The woman clearly doesn't understood that, in order to make her case, she doesn't need to make pre-British Bengal sound like a fairy tale land where the Mughal rulers were paragons of virtue, no one ever went bankrupt, taxes were only paid if the peasants could afford it blah blah blah.... or maybe she does....

I have a rule that if an author or politician or salesman has to tell lies to get their point, policy or product over, then there is clearly something wrong with what they are trying to sell....



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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 141
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/27/2018 5:54:17 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've started reading Mukerjee's book Churchill's Secret War. I'm only on the prologue at the moment but there have been few surprises.

I think "Once upon a time" would have been a better opening line based on what came after. The woman clearly doesn't understood that, in order to make her case, she doesn't need to make pre-British Bengal sound like a fairy tale land where the Mughal rulers were paragons of virtue, no one ever went bankrupt, taxes were only paid if the peasants could afford it blah blah blah.... or maybe she does....

I have a rule that if an author or politician or salesman has to tell lies to get their point, policy or product over, then there is clearly something wrong with what they are trying to sell....




Write a rebuttal. I'll buy it.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 142
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 7:29:58 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Ahhh!!! Don't encourage him. If he's prepared to critique the prologue, we're in trouble.

Can't we get this thread back to a morbid subject that is less controversial, like how the Japanese treated the populations of their conquered territories.

You two can take the fun out of anything.

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Post #: 143
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 6:29:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've started reading Mukerjee's book Churchill's Secret War. I'm only on the prologue at the moment but there have been few surprises.

I think "Once upon a time" would have been a better opening line based on what came after. The woman clearly doesn't understood that, in order to make her case, she doesn't need to make pre-British Bengal sound like a fairy tale land where the Mughal rulers were paragons of virtue, no one ever went bankrupt, taxes were only paid if the peasants could afford it blah blah blah.... or maybe she does....

I have a rule that if an author or politician or salesman has to tell lies to get their point, policy or product over, then there is clearly something wrong with what they are trying to sell....




Write a rebuttal. I'll buy it.

warspite1

Nah, the more I read, the more disingenuous her arguments are and the soppier she appears. The chapter entitled "Harvesting the Colonies" is largely about Adolf Hitler and that Hitler's plans for the east were modelled on a blueprint provided by the British in India.

The rantings of this sociopath are viewed by history in the manner they should be - unless of course, according to Mukerjee, he's waxing lyrical on his view of British rule - then of course Adolf Hitler apparently becomes the font of all knowledge

Her nonsense just ruins what could have been an interesting book. This hyperbole just makes anything she says suspect.


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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 144
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 6:37:04 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

then of course Adolf Hitler apparently becomes the font of all knowledge


You mean he isn't. How disconcerting.

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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 145
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 7:16:22 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've started reading Mukerjee's book Churchill's Secret War. I'm only on the prologue at the moment but there have been few surprises.

I think "Once upon a time" would have been a better opening line based on what came after. The woman clearly doesn't understood that, in order to make her case, she doesn't need to make pre-British Bengal sound like a fairy tale land where the Mughal rulers were paragons of virtue, no one ever went bankrupt, taxes were only paid if the peasants could afford it blah blah blah.... or maybe she does....

I have a rule that if an author or politician or salesman has to tell lies to get their point, policy or product over, then there is clearly something wrong with what they are trying to sell....




Write a rebuttal. I'll buy it.

warspite1

Nah, the more I read, the more disingenuous her arguments are and the soppier she appears. The chapter entitled "Harvesting the Colonies" is largely about Adolf Hitler and that Hitler's plans for the east were modelled on a blueprint provided by the British in India.

The rantings of this sociopath are viewed by history in the manner they should be - unless of course, according to Mukerjee, he's waxing lyrical on his view of British rule - then of course Adolf Hitler apparently becomes the font of all knowledge

Her nonsense just ruins what could have been an interesting book. This hyperbole just makes anything she says suspect.



Max Hastings (yes, THAT Max) disagrees.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/churchills-secret-war-by-madhusree-mukerjee-q9ff5hws39m

quote:

Quote from article

Winston Churchill told the House of Commons after Pearl Harbor in December 1941: “The great thing is that we have four-fifths of the world’s populations on our side.” This was a terminological inexactitude. It would have been more correct to say that the allies had many of the world’s peoples under their control, which was somewhat different.
A significant proportion, including many Arabs and Indians, were alienated from the allied struggle for freedom, because it included no commitment to liberate them from colonial mastery.
Even Churchill’s greatest admirers cannot escape the fact that British misgovernment of the Raj represented a blot on his wartime leadership.
“He is really not quite normal on the subject of India,” wrote Leo Amery, secretary of state for India. Churchill defied American opinion by resisting serious negotiation with Nehru’s Congress party about self-government. He wrote in his war memoirs that President Roosevelt’s commitment to this represented “an act of madness… Idealism at other people’s expense and without regard to the consequences of ruin and slaughter which fall upon millions of humble homes cannot be considered as its highest and noblest form”.

He claimed that British policy was based on a refusal to desert the Indian people in their hour of need, “leaving them to anarchy or subjugation”. He caused most of the nationalist leadership to be imprisoned for much of the war, and endorsed ruthless repressive measures in response to strikes, demonstrations and acts of sabotage. The British authorities copied Stalin’s policy in Russia by confiscating all accessible private radios to prevent disaffected Indians from listening to Axis broadcasts.
All this was narrowly defensible in the context of Britain’s struggle for survival, especially when the Japanese were at the gates. On January 21, 1942, the viceroy Lord Linlithgow reported to London: “There is a large and dangerous potential fifth column in Bengal, Assam, Bihar and Orissa, and…indeed, potentiality of pro-enemy sympathy and activity in eastern India is enormous.”
But the scandal, one of the great horrors of the war, was the 1943 Bengal famine, in which at least 1m and perhaps 3m Indians perished. In the clubs of Calcutta sahibs continued to enjoy unlimited eggs and bacon, while a few yards from their doors people died in the streets.
This is the story Madhusree Mukerjee tells in her significant and — to British readers — distressing book. A soldier of left-wing sympathies, Clive Branson, was appalled by what he found in India during war service there: “Let our imperialists boast… Never will any of us…forget the unbelievable, indescribable poverty in which we have found people living wherever we went.” If the British people knew the truth, “there would be a hell of a row — because these conditions are maintained in the name of the British”.
Bengal was especially vulnerable. Its principal source of imported rice was cut off when neighbouring Burma was occupied by the Japanese. The British confiscated or disabled most of the coastal region’s transport, including boats and bullock carts, to prevent its use by the enemy. This crippled both fishing and trade.
Much traditional crop-growing land had been turned over to jute production, vital for sandbags — indeed, India became a major source of war material for the empire. Then in November 1942 a cyclone struck today’s Bangladesh, killing 30,000 people and ravaging the countryside. As hunger began to give way to starvation, the authorities were slow to respond. Large quantities of food continued to be exported to Sri Lanka.
When the crisis was belatedly recognised and the new viceroy, Wavell, appealed to London for food aid, his repeated and increasingly urgent requests received woefully inadequate responses. He wrote: “Apparently it is more important to save the Greeks and liberated countries from starvation than the Indians and there is reluctance either to provide shipping or to reduce stocks in [Britain].”
The government pleaded the shipping shortage, which was real enough. But Mukerjee makes the telling and just point that, even at the height of the Battle of the Atlantic, Churchill insisted on sustaining the British people’s rations at a level far above that prevailing in India.


To put the matter brutally, millions of Indians were allowed to starve so that available shipping — including vessels normally based in India — could be used to further British purposes elsewhere. When Churchill’s nation was engaged in a desperate struggle, perhaps this reflected strategic logic. But it made nonsense of his post-war claims about upholding the interests of the Indian people, and indeed of the whole paternalistic ethic by which the empire sought to justify itself.
Churchill wrote in March 1943, applauding the minister of war transport’s unwillingness to release ships to move relief supplies: “A concession to one country…encourages demands from all the others. [The Indians] must learn to look after themselves as we have done… We cannot afford to send ships merely as a gesture of goodwill.”
It is a ghastly story, and the book’s eyewitness accounts of the consequences for the people of Bengal make harrowing reading. Most recent western histories of the war in the east mention the famine — as earlier chronicles did not. But Mukerjee’s book offers the fullest account I have read.
She is right in asserting, passionately and bitterly, that British wartime governance of India was exploitative. Towards the end of her tale, however, I became less confident of her judgments. She suggests, for instance, that British agents might have been responsible for the 1945 plane crash that killed nationalist leader Subhas Chandra Bose, serving with the Japanese. British enthusiasm to eliminate Bose was not in doubt, but there is no evidence to suggest that they were smart enough to sabotage his aircraft on the far side of Asia.
Finally, she blames Churchill for the bloody 1947 partition of India. This seems a bridge too far. The old imperialist’s enthusiasm for a Muslim Pakistan is well known, as is his matching distaste for Hindus. But he was two years out of office when partition came. Its causes seem to lie deep in the subcontinent’s history and racial make-up. It is hard to make a credible case that what happened was the product of a
Churchillian conspiracy.
But the broad thrust of Mukerjee’s book is as sound as it is shocking. I have myself argued that Churchill’s disdain for the interests of black and brown peoples besmirched his awesome wartime record. If the Bengal famine arose from circumstances beyond British control, failure to relieve the starving millions — or even to be seen to care much about them — was in substantial degree our fault.


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 146
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 7:59:02 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Max Hastings (yes, THAT Max) disagrees.

warspite1

Hastings appears to be increasingly trying to stay relevant....



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Post #: 147
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 8:32:48 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Had edited it originally from steaming pile to moderate steaming pile. Then I realized that I had only read about 3 or 4 of his books, so I'm not really qualified to comment as to his pileishness.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 11/28/2018 8:52:48 PM >

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Post #: 148
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 9:30:13 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Max Hastings (yes, THAT Max) disagrees.

warspite1

Hastings appears to be increasingly trying to stay relevant....




How so? Not read much of his work since Nemesis, which I remember as being a pretty solid book.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 149
RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered terri... - 11/28/2018 10:00:07 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Historically for oil, fuel, resources(minerals) . Anyone knows, i guess somewhere, someone might have made that calculation.

Also interesting would be to know how much they lost in transit from total.



much can be found or addessed here, by Mcarthur's commission:
https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/MacArthur%20Reports/MacArthur%20V2%20P1/ch4.htm#p45

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