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South China Sea - 12/8/2018 3:21:49 AM   
DWReese

 

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Dimitris,

Since the LIVE: Spratly Spat scenario was released (about two years ago), China has continued to build up their "claimed" islands/reefs in the SCS, and many islands/reefs now consist of actual runways, SAMs, SSMs, buildings, towers, docks, etc. These are far more advanced than the generic Platform C structures listed in the original scenario.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on how these structures/units will be represented in the game in the future? What is the best method (if there is one) of being able to now represent something like these man-made islands/reefs. I can definitely see this becoming a flash point in the near future, and I fear that limiting them to mere platforms might not be enough.

Do you have any suggestions?

Doug
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RE: South China Sea - 12/8/2018 6:29:29 PM   
DWReese

 

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Quite a bit has changed since the original LIVE: Spratly Spat scenario came out.

China has completely built three of the islands into military complexes. In fact, Subi Island reportedly has over 400 buildings on it alone. These are not merely sandbars in the middle of the ocean anymore. Recently YJ-12B SSM (with a range of 215 miles) and HQ-9B SAMs have been photographed there. Y-7 and Y-8 transport planes obviously land there, and J-10 and J-11 fighters, similar to those on Woody Island are soon likely to be deployed as well. The islands also serve as a port-of-call for many of their warships. The below link will provide even more detail:

https://amti.csis.org/accounting-chinas-deployments-spratly-islands/

At some point the "legal" owners will have to stand up to this aggression, or forego their claims to the islands altogether. They obviously can't do much unless they are supported by the US, England, or Australia. With the new tariffs/sanctions/fees/etc. being imposed on China, I can envision a situation where China elects to start imposing some kind of tariff of their own for foreign vessels entering, or sailing through, the SCS. If it ever came to that, I could see a situation where a military conflict could take place.

The biggest disadvantage for China is the fact that the islands are quite far from the mainland, and their carrier isn't really capable of going toe-to-toe with the a/c of the surrounding nations or a US carrier group. But, if they could properly stock these islands with enough weaponry, they could make it difficult for any nation trying to expel them.

To me, this sounds like a very good beginnings of a scenario that might be kind of fun to play. Any of you scenario designers out there up for the challenge?

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/9/2018 1:54:30 PM   
BeirutDude


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quote:

I've actually wanted to but my understanding is the new islands aren't represented on the map. Am I in error on this?


Never mind just answered my own question.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 12/9/2018 2:00:33 PM >


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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 3:00:09 AM   
DWReese

 

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Well, are they? It seems that some 'area" around the reef now seems to now be set at 3 feet elevation. So, perhaps they have addressed that. I'm going to try and build a base later tonight to see how much "stuff" I can put on it. I don't know if the size of the reef has anything to do with how many units I can place on it or not.

From what I gather, the "Big Three" (Subi, Mischief, and Fiery Cross) should all follow Woody Island, and will likely all be similar. It seems as though there should be 20 small plane hangers; 2 medium sized shelters; 1 or 2 large sized shelters; HQ-9 SAMs; YJ-12B SSMs; along with the runway and assorted other things towers and fuel tanks.

That should probably give me a good start representation of the military there.

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 9:36:38 AM   
BeirutDude


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I Tried yesterday evening and everyplace I attempted to place a facility indicated it was underwater. Maybe you’ll have better luck than I did.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 11:49:58 AM   
TYHo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

I Tried yesterday evening and everyplace I attempted to place a facility indicated it was underwater. Maybe you’ll have better luck than I did.


I think the trick is to 'add' the facility anywhere on a landmass, then 'move' it to the place u want at the 'sea'...

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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 1:59:06 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

I Tried yesterday evening and everyplace I attempted to place a facility indicated it was underwater. Maybe you’ll have better luck than I did.


Are you upgraded to the latest version? I've been building bases out there for fun. It helps to use map overlays to see where the land is, though.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 5:40:27 PM   
AlphaSierra

 

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They wont look anything like Woody, when your done.
Don't forget Johnson Reef, Hughes, Gaven and my favorite Cuarteron reef
Most of these are IMO more high value than Firey Cross, Mischief or Subi






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AlphaSierra -- 12/10/2018 5:42:00 PM >


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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 8:12:07 PM   
DWReese

 

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The articles that I provided seem to indicate that most (if not all) of the work being done is on those three Islands. In fact, they refer to them as "The Big Three." So, I'm a little confused as to why you would mention these other three. Sure, the LIVE scenario includes them, but I haven't really found much evidence that the three that you mentioned were more prevalent than The Big Three. If you have some supporting docs, please let me know. I'd love to see anything that you (or anyone) might have.

Thanks.

Doug


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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 8:29:08 PM   
kevinkins


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Maybe these pieces of land are just too small within the allowable placement grid for commercial Command. The difference between land and sea has to be very stark when trying to place stuff on tiny specks. Pretty sure the Pro edition of Command has these pieces of land very well mapped out and much easier to design scenarios for without overlays. If overlays help the commercial edition, then many would love to d/l them.

Kevin


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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 8:44:58 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

If overlays help the commercial edition, then many would love to d/l them.


Get GMAP!

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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 11:28:54 PM   
kevinkins


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I have GMAP and it's a pain in the ass so why not just post your marvelous creations to help the community out? Pretty simple. Right? Of course you do not have these overlays you are talking about ... do you? They do not exist. Or else you would have posted them for your friends in this forum to use and have fun with. Why keep them under your pillow?

Kevin

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 12/10/2018 11:33:14 PM >


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RE: South China Sea - 12/10/2018 11:50:39 PM   
DWReese

 

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Anyone have any info (articles, etc.) on the various Chinese radar and EW-type units that may be used in the SCS? I get the impression, from the limited resources that I have read, that China will use jammers and ELINT units on these islands/reefs.

I have recently placed the SSM on the three reefs and Woody Island, as described in the article that I provided earlier. Interestingly, the 215 nm range of their SSM, placed at each of those four locations, can pretty much cover the entire SCS coast to coast. They have definitely thought this one out.

I do believe that occupying these reefs gives China a huge buffer of security around the mainland. More importantly, China (as I mentioned before) could try to start placing tariffs on imported goods coming into the country, or charging shipping fees to recoup some of their recent economic laws. (Hey, it could be possible.) In any case, the SSM batteries located on these reefs pretty much give China the means to be able to hit any ship in the SCS. It's just a thought.

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 12:06:19 AM   
kevinkins


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Many folks think that these islands amount to no more than the French Maginot Line did in 1940. While, any hypothetical conflict over them is really cool, I would put China at a terrible and crushing disadvantage vs the US and their Allies in any scenario.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 12:24:12 AM   
Anathema


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It shouldn't be too hard to edit the map and the GIS data it is based on to add the islands since I believe it's based on standard data formats. There are open source programs that can do it that usually work with vectors or height maps, although I am guessing it would need to be done by hand since the publicly available data tends to cover land masses since it makes no sense to send topography mapping satellites over oceans.

Probably wouldn't be completely accurate without the bathymetry data that only the PLA would know and have mapped, but adding a patch of what is pretty much flat land a few feet above sea level and the vector outline for a new land mass should suffice and be pretty easy to do.

I am kind of surprised someone other than the devs haven't done it yet since there is loads of GIS data online and an active community, but perhaps because they haven't since it would be a rough guess rather than accurate survey based on actual measurement.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 12:54:49 AM   
AlphaSierra

 

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Your search for radar and other EW in the SCS will lead you to answer your own question about "the Big three"

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 12:59:46 AM   
AlphaSierra

 

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Your assessment of the practicality of these fixed targets is spot on, and indeed does demonstrate poor planning on the Chinese part.

Perhaps they have other uses for them planned?

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 3:27:51 AM   
DWReese

 

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I'm interested in a more detailed assessment as to why you (and Kevin) believe that a conflict would be so one-sided.

I do agree that a battle for islands stuck in the middle of nowhere seems kind of foolish. At the same time, IF China could actually use the islands to enforce shipping regulations (tariffs) they would actually be able to control the area.

As far as a fight is concerned, the SSM mentioned have a great range. The number of missile launchers installed is obviously not known. The hangers, etc., would suggest that 20 fighters, some transport planes, some surveillance air craft, and EW aircraft would likely be stationed there. Each of these four islands would likely have the same make-up. None of these make the islands impenetrable as targets, but exactly how far would other nations want to go to take on China? It appears that the Philippines are already wavering, and the rest will obviously fall in line with China if the US, England and Australia do nothing.

From a world view, it seems to me that the Chinese began wagering that the Obama administration wasn't going to challenge them (they were correct), and that the Trump administration has more things to worry about than some dumb islands in the SCS. So, by the time some country (or countries) is willing to take them on, the consequences may be far greater than they initially were.

It's just some thoughts. I'd love to hear other takes on the situation.

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 3:33:32 AM   
DWReese

 

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I appears that the latest version has very light lines which have been drawn where the artificial land mass is. If you point to it, in most cases that area will now show at 3 feet elevation. I was able to install some units there, but it is very tiny and is a little difficult to work with. I created a base (minus barracks, etc.), and managed to get it all in. One problem occurs as you zoom in closer to make the area larger, you will no longer be able to see the outline of the land/sea demarcation. Often I would try to add another unit only to be advised that I was adding a stucture into the sea, and that the process was halted.

Otherwise, it works well. I have tried to actually do anything with the units as of yet, however.

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 11:55:06 AM   
kevinkins


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The SCS is an excellent hotspot for designers to consider. But I would keep the scenario below the level of WW3 and perhaps even keep the US out of the scenario. I think the threat those islands pose is overblown. They say if you can see it you can destroy it. I would hate to be stationed on those islands if the US went after them. I don't believe China is operationally ready (i.e. training/experience/tradition) for major combined arms conflict. They have not fought a major war in a long time. Of course, the US is rusty at surface combat too. But I think they would make fewer mistakes and come out ahead as long if they were not simply overwhelmed by numbers. Which could happen hypothetically and might make for a cool battle to simulate. Be interested to hear what others think since the SCS is in the news just about every day.

Here is a lengthy analysis:

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/balanced-threat-assessment-chinas-south-china-sea-policy

Kevin

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 12/11/2018 12:06:54 PM >


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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 1:29:53 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

At the same time, IF China could actually use the islands to enforce shipping regulations (tariffs) they would actually be able to control the area.


I think it's a little more complicated than that. The Chinese don't want to do anything that might disrupt shipping, because they make a lot of money off that too. Furthermore, they need the oil that comes through there. It's really more about bullying their neighbors. For example, practically within swimming distance of Subi Reef is the Philippine held island of Thitu. On Thitu is a small detachment of Philippino Marines and a rough airstrip usable by C-130s. There's not much else there. I think there's plans to put some luxury resorts out there. I'm sure the snorkeling and scuba diving are great. If the Chinese wanted to cut them off, all they'd need to do is turn on their SAM radars, have their fighters start capping over the island and announce they're no longer going to tolerate the Philippino military presence on their islands. The Philippino government can't do anything to stop them. They can either agree to leave or starve.

That (and other things) puts the Philippines government in an awkward position, because if the Chinese government came to them and said they'd like them to accept unfavorable terms in an agreement to do oil and mineral exploration in the vicinity of that island, they can't really say "No," because the Chinese government doesn't really have to ask. Thus they'd be able to slowly erode the Philippines (or the Vietnamese, or the Malaysian, or the Brunei, or the Taiwanese) effective claims to the islands, without firing a shot, and at the same time exploit them economically, treating their concerns regarding economic development as subordinate to their own.

The US position in the SCS is neutral. While the US government supports the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, and argues that the Spratly Islands represent an excessive claim on the part of the Chinese, it doesn't necessarily support anyone else's claim either. The government doesn't really care whose islands they are, so long as whatever solution is reached is arrived at peacefully. You're right, the US could probably steamroller those installations fairly quickly if pressed. That's not really who they're aimed at, though. They're really about coercing the other claimants to the Spratlys into accepting Chinese dominion over everything inside The Nine-Dash Line.

Given that, it's actually kind of a complicated thing trying to figure out under what conditions the US would actually intervene in the SCS. I don't think it would happen, unless either the US or one of their regional allies were actually attacked by the Chinese, which they might choose to do if the Chinese government felt that one of the claimants was insufficiently submissive to their interests, or if it was perceived as easier than strong arming the regional powers into giving up their own rights. Basically, one of the claimant nations would have to instigate something, or the potential US intervention would have to be perceived by the Chinese government as weak. In that case, the US would probably honor its agreements. The thing is, neither the claimants, nor the Chinese, nor the US really wants a war in the SCS. It's kind of an "everybody loses," situation. So the interesting question in my mind, is how does the US support its allies interests and deter Chinese aggression without firing a shot? I think that's really hard.

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 12/11/2018 1:51:06 PM >

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 2:59:59 PM   
DWReese

 

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SeaQueen,

Thanks for sharing your insight on this topic.

As far as a scenario is concerned, as you said, I can't imagine the US congress approving military action in the SCS with the US being the aggressor. So, if an incident were to occur, then China must make the first aggressive act.

China, however, isn't stupid, so I don't see them doing that unless they were really provoked. So, if the US wanted to take action, if would have to create a situation where China appeared to be "the bad guy."

I can envision some situation where some unit commander somewhere has probably taken some kind of action because they were presented with a situation where they suddenly reacted, without the direction or guidance of their nation. In fact, I have a vision from the movie "The Bedford Incident", where actor James MacAthur's character hits the "FIRE BUTTON" when the stressed out captain (Richard Widmark) whose destroyer had been stalking a Soviet sub), was talking to someone else and loudly blurts out the words heard by MacArthur's character, "fire one", and he subsequently releases ASW weapons against the Soviet sub. The action, of course, results in a retaliatory strike by the Soviets which results in the death of all involved. I can see an "incident", whether it was planned or designed, being the spark that initiates a tactical, limited and retaliatory (non-nuclear) response by the other side.

I believe that the scenario has some potential, and like Kevin said, it should probably be limited in its size and scope.

Hopefully, we some scenario developer will take the reigns. <lol>

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 4:01:02 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

I can see an "incident", whether it was planned or designed, being the spark that initiates a tactical, limited and retaliatory (non-nuclear) response by the other side.


I think the more likely possibility of accidental escalation arises at a higher level from lack of communication or miscommunication of intentions. The first Gulf War started because Saddam Hussein really didn't think that the United States would care about his invasion of Kuwait. He had diplomatic communications with the United States along the lines of, "The US does not want to involve itself in intra-Arab disputes," to support that thinking.

One of the risks of the United States agreeing to defend weaker nations like the Philippines or others in the region is that it might allow them to behave in a way which is more aggressive and belligerent than maybe they would otherwise be, because they believe they can count on US intervention should things ever get too crazy. That means the US runs the risk of being pulled into conflicts it'd really prefer not to be in. So the US has to manage that kind of behavior and simultaneously reign in the weaker powers (Perhaps threatening, "If you provoke the Chinese we might not be able to help you.") and simultaneously demonstrating the US's resolve to defend them by showing their readiness to defend them (perhaps be deploying carrier strike groups to the region, or bombers to Guam). The Chinese on the other hand, have their own uncertain calculations to make. Maybe their intelligence services get wind of both communications, which do they believe? Why? Maybe they look at the forces the US has committed and decided it's not enough to signal a meaningful commitment. It's all really complicated.

I could imagine a similar situation where US diplomats, in typically ambiguous language, at a period of heightened tensions in S.E. Asia say something like, "The US has no interest in becoming involved in intra-Asian disputes," and a Chinese government, hot to enforce its claim takes that as meaning, "The US will not intervene," which probably wouldn't be the case. Meanwhile, an emboldened Philippines and/or Vietnam collectively provoke the Chinese by seizing fishing boats, dredgers or GOPLATS. If the Chinese make a big move on the other claimants, it'd almost certainly provoke a US response even if the US implied otherwise in its diplomatic communications.

There's other possibilities too. Rules of engagement, for example. In a world of 200NM range cruise missiles at what point do they declare a contact hostile in the name of self defense? More than 200NM out? Good luck with that. When you're outgunned, what's an unambiguous warning? Maybe during a show of force, a bomber passes over a warship and the panicked crew fires, resulting in rapid escalation in the name of self-defense on both sides? One hopes that cooler heads prevail but depending on how the rules are written and what people are doing, it's hard to say that some red line won't be crossed without the other side even knowing it.



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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 4:41:56 PM   
AlphaSierra

 

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China is a country of thieves and yes they are that stupid. They will screw up by pushing civilian fisherman too far. These are NOT their waters to "patrol", the promised hush money is not being paid by the Chinese and patience will wear thin with the affected nations.

That's what will spark the conflict. China does not have the resources to push any nation around. IMO China would be better suited to minding their own shores, and remembering the fact that one grenade will kill thousands of their citizens, who will not back their aspirations of world dominance.



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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 5:13:32 PM   
DWReese

 

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SeaQueen,

I can easily see some of your "hypothetical" examples as being the "spark" that begins hostilities.

After "acquiring" and developing these islands as they have, I can see China turning its attention to the re-acquisition of Taiwan. I can't take credit for this theory as it was the basis for the beginning of one of Larry Bond's books. That would certainly make for a more compelling reason to go to war.

The 200-mile range of some of these weapons does make for some interesting areas of operation. Again, this may be used as a threat to force a tariff on some shipping (US???) passing through the area.

Doug

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 5:21:30 PM   
DWReese

 

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I'm not sure that I am following your statements. Can you explain your comments in more detail?

The Chinese fisherman seem to be benefiting from the expansion. How are they being pushed, and in what manner?

While the courts have ruled that these other nations are the rightful owners of some of these contested islands, the Chinese sure seem to be presently occupying them. What "hush money" are you referring to?

While most other nations probably would appreciate China minding their own borders, it sure doesn't seem to be what they are doing. I have been completely amazed at what they have accomplished in three years. It doesn't look as if they will be going away unless forced to do so.

Doug


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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 5:42:51 PM   
Sharana


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For me those islands are stationary aircraft carriers for area control - good luck trying to enforce a blockade with them having such level of control in the area. Also nice buffer before the mainland in case of conflict in the future.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 6:00:11 PM   
SeaQueen


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Taiwan... meh... I don't think they really care. As long as they're continuously pursuing increased ties between the mainland and Taiwan, I think reunification with Taiwan is looked upon as a fait accompli. The big problem in Taiwan would be if the government suddenly declared itself independent of China. As it stands right now, the official policy of Taiwan is that there is one China, and the government of Taiwan (i.e. The Republic of China) is the rightful government of China. The PRC disagrees with that position, but is willing to overlook it so long as they all agree that Taiwan is part of China.

Also, there exists almost no US commercial shipping to impose a tariff on. Most shipping companies in the modern age are multinational corporations, and their ships fly under flags of convenience (e.g. Liberia) which enable them to minimize costs while skirting labor and safety regulations. That makes it impractical to target US shipping specifically. Secondly, I think you misunderstand the nature of the conflict in the SCS. It really has nothing to do with the US at all. The only reason the US would intervene would be if one of the claimants other than China asked them to, and the US agreed to it. Any Chinese aggression in the region would be targeted primarily at one of its neighbors (Vietnam, The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei). Even though the Taiwanese government maintains a garrison on one of the Spratlys, I doubt they'd do anything aggressive towards them, because Taiwan is a part of China (and they both agree) and Taiwan believes that everything inside the nine dash line is a part of China as well.

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RE: South China Sea - 12/11/2018 6:58:03 PM   
AlphaSierra

 

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The Chinese have over fished and polluted their own waters to the point they can not sustain enough fish to feed their people.

So the big bully agrees to pay off some Philippine and Indonesian officials, to fish their waters. The money has been slow or non existent, as predicted by almost everyone.

The Chinese have ZERO claim to any waters that far south and they know it. They were banking on the globalist obama and clinton to continue their carnage. That's not going to happen.

All that said, I wager that the daily phone calls to the White House from the Philippines are falling on deaf ears, in terms of you kicked us out of Subic so now you get what you deserve.

In other words, Phillipines... you made your bed, now lie in it.



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RE: South China Sea - 12/12/2018 2:47:29 AM   
DWReese

 

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From: Miami, Florida
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I found this article just today. it came out this week, I believe.

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/12/chinese-se
nior-military-official-calls-for-attacks-on-us-ships-in-south-china-sea/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=amn&utm_campaign=alt&fbclid=IwAR3I9yyhqK-5Z3B8v0hVAul3jWnrhn3AzFbvccwwNrnecalVh5mtkvjUGNM

Doug

(in reply to AlphaSierra)
Post #: 30
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