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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS

 
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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 12:02:52 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO




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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 1:15:35 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I know there is always LOTS of Allied player crying, whining, and lack of understanding regarding the Mods and that they favor the Japanese too much.


I am NOT whining!!






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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 1:42:32 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Yes Admiral!

The garrisons were lowered to reflect more towards bases that have economic assets. John had raised them too high in many places. While japan may have lower garrison requirements, the Chinese have better supply generation AND from 50 to 100% increase in non-infantry device production.

This will all end when I eventually get around to changing China to Big B's version of China. Hopefully this theater will end being more a stalemate than a place for Japan to roll over like it is now.

I recently completed a book of the wars in China from 1911 to 1949. I now see the reason behind Brian's (Big B) mod here.


I have played both sides to very late '43. First as Japan and now as Allies that should go the distance. The Allies do have enough to hurt Japan early in '42 if they are not careful. Two of the hybids convert quickly (90 days - can start in Feb '42) while the two American CLVs take until late '42 (180 days - May to Nov).
The Allies have dedicated training air groups which helps a lot. The Americans get more in July '43.

I think the mod is relatively balanced after all the tweaks to get it back from being too Japanese friendly in the game John had vs Canoerebel.



Michael: what book please?


Also: have you checked the Chinese OOB made by Sid (El Sid) in RHS mod?
Have you talked with him? about China and every issue you raised or pointed at here?
He'll be very happy to answer and enter in correspondence with you;

Also I'm sure you're aware of the interesting solutions on the logistic aspects applied by LST in China (and Burma area too) in "Bottlenecks" mod;


Adm. Cochrane: one issue of "balance" and realism has been raised regarding the armor deck of the Japanese CAVs; you and Michael answered but probably is worth of further analysis and consideration;


P.S.: some discussion was raised also within respect of Japanese 4 Eng bombers hen you recentlu used them for some limited strat bomb campaign; cheap claims of unrealism has been rejected, but someone also uploaded the specs for the Rita (GM8?) from mod's editor, and at least one specification called for surprise and that is the Armor level of 2 (???!)



Hey Adar.

Queries have been made on the CAVs. Suckers are big at over 16,000+ T. I pulled my armor numbers straight from the book. Can anyone correlate or collaborate on them? If there is an error, I can easily rectify but as far as I understand it, the Deck is 60 which can defeat a 1,000 HE bomb but not an SAP bomb. Correct?

Here is what I have in the design:





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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/19/2018 1:43:02 PM >


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 1:48:28 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO





I always use Rene Francillon's work for aircraft stats.The Liz and Rita info came from Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. None of this stuff is made up when it comes to historical aircraft and ships. Simply use the stats that I have been given.

The 4EB program is a pure and simple fantasy. Have no issue admitting that whatsoever. Building and using them is fun, however, they are very expensive with number of engines and all that.

The armor number of 2 for Rita came from another Mod used in AE. I THINK (could be wrong) it comes from the Ironman or one of the other late-war Mods.

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:02:50 PM   
John 3rd


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In the Mod, LIZ is available starting Dec 7th and begins with a very low production rate. This is a purposeful decision. The Japanese Player may CHOOSE to produce the plane. I have the number set at 28/Month. Cost is steep economically speaking. The start of the war sees 1 Daitai in Cadre status in Kyushu with then 3 more Daitai coming in as reinforcements during the war. I just got my 3rd Daitai a few days ago in Aug 1943.

Here are the stats:





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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:03:52 PM   
John 3rd


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We tried to reflect service issues with the bomber by placing their SR at 4.

This is RITA starting production in April 1945:






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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/19/2018 2:32:18 PM >


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:06:54 PM   
John 3rd


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As with anything Michael and I do, it is about balance and accuracy. We're always open for change. This is how we added the off-map aircraft purchase system. It was due to the issues that came up in my campaign with Dan. We dialed things back starting a couple of years ago due to experience playing an early RA variant through to mid-45.

The 4EB discussion seems to focus on accuracy. Are Francillon's numbers that far off? Need serious educated input here...

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:27:01 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO






The G5M was underpoered, because the intended engines were unreliable, thus replaced with less powerful;

I think "underpowered" machine oerformances should be reflected in : sensibly lower practical ceiling, poor to very poor climb rate (not that important in game for a bomber ), of course poor manouverability, reduced practical payload espacially for longer range, possibly higher service manteinance rate;

The G5M (version 2!) of the mod shows a ceiling of 24 k feet altitude, not that high; should it be reduced? maybe...; a payload reduced from 12x250 kg to 4x 250 kg; SR 4; max speed isn't that high either, 261 mph= 430 Kmh; it coulb be reduced a bit more too; manuverability, 4...;

finally, we have a non impressive LR bomber, at the edges of obsolescence, not very well armed for self defence, should the Japan player be deprived of the option if he wishes to and willing to invest the high resources for it?
sincerely I don't think so;

eventually it could be taken in consideration an evolved version with the more powerful engines intended from the beginning when they become available (they are the same engines of the ki 84?) ; if the superior G8M has not finished its development in the while;


much could be said about japanese bomber designs that did not see mass production mainly for industrial reasons

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:38:42 PM   
John 3rd


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Good comments Adar. Don't disagree with anything said. We could dial back the LIZ more for the at war plane. I did exactly what you described by putting an upgrade into production starting in June 43. Let me pull up that Model.


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 2:41:49 PM   
John 3rd


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Here it is. SR is still 4:





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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 3:21:25 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The 4EB program is a pure and simple fantasy. Have no issue admitting that whatsoever.


I'd say far from pure and simple fantasy!

Much less than than the Shinden and the jet planes , accepted in stock and by the community!

Again about the G5M, maybe a reduction of its bomb load in the underpowered version should be warranted? From 12 x 250 kg to some less?

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/19/2018 4:04:08 PM   
John 3rd


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We could certainly do that. Reflecting issues what about reducing from 12 down to 8? Perhaps some other downgrades as well. Will think on it some...


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 1:38:17 AM   
John 3rd


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Expected to see a bunch of Posts here after I got off of work today.

Ran my August 21, 1942 turns and it appears that Sean and I read each other's minds. I decided on a maximum effort against Asanol while he decided on a maximum effort against Calcutta. It did not go too well for Dai Nippon. ATA was pretty fair but he knocked my massed CAP down just in time for 38 B-17s to come in at 5,000 Ft. OUCH!

We're headed out for Christmas Light looking and I'll do a serious update at that point.


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 3:06:54 PM   
John 3rd


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August 22, 1942
India

After the wild and crazy aerial combat yesterday, the Japanese guess correctly that Calcutta will not be the target two days in a row. Howrah is targeted this day and the Fighter Sweeps are not enough to knock down the Japanese CAP and LRCAP. Three raids of 20, 6, and 8 B-17 come in at 5,000Ft and they are met by 38 Zero and Tojo. FAR better results come this turn as five are shot down and nearly all appear to be damaged. Howrah takes barely a scratch.

Much better...





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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 3:23:27 PM   
John 3rd


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August 21, 1942
India

As noted above, Sean and I get the same idea at the same time. I decided to attack Asanol and he decides to attack Calcutta.

For those talking about the lopsidedness of this Mod, let me run some rather interesting numbers:

Battle Over Asanol
Morning Sweeps
33 Tojo vs 150 Allied Fighters (Mainly British Hurricanes and American P-40s)
16 Tojo vs
37 Tojo vs

Afternoon Attacks
12 Tojo vs 96 Fighters
30 Zero and 45 Betty/Nell vs
24 Zero and 6 Liz vs
11 Tojo and 6 B vs
6 Tojo and 15 B vs
11 B vs

The AF takes nearly 30 Runway hits with damage being pretty negligible and bomber losses high for the afternoon.



Battle Over Calcutta
137 Fighters on CAP vs 20 P-40
vs 13 F4F
vs 13 F4F
vs 13 F4F
vs 16 Martlet
vs 19 P-39
vs 25 P-38
vs 6 F4F
vs 5 Fighters
11 Fighters vs 16 Blenheims
5 F vs 11 Blenheims
0 vs 38 B-17
0 vs 26 P-38
0 vs 18 P-40

Nearly 75 bombers are destroyed on the ground and the Runway jumps to 38% with Service going to 58%

YEEEEEE--OUCH!

The whole cost vs use discussion we're having with Japanese 4EB is put to a serious lest as I lose 40 Liz on the ground. The only GOOD way to look at that is those crews lost their planes ON THE GROUND so I did nose the CREWS in the air! Isn't much of a silver lining but it is better then nothing.


This was a perfectly executed attack upon a heavily defended AF. Wish I could do the same. Well done to Sean!

My comment at the start of the Post is important due to how the Mod has fixed Allied Aircraft replacements and allows access to more airframes in a crisis (the off-map purchase system). In these two areas of fighting, the Allies used 324 Fighters total. There are plenty more elsewhere in India.




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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 3:29:29 PM   
John 3rd


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August 21, 1942
India

Much better results on the following turn where Japanese Fighters came up in altitude and did a fair job.

Sean and I are not playing with House Rules. He is not paying attention to maneuver bands with Fighters and loves his bombers at 5,000 t. OK. I raise my Fighter Altitude some: Tojo from 20 K to 25 K, Zero M3 from 15K to 20K, and M2 leave M2 at 15K.





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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 3:51:12 PM   
Canoerebel


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Players (especially those with a record of being "AFBs") inquiring about your mod may sometimes be rude or contemptuous in a hurtful way, but most of the time I think they're genuinely interested. That was the case a few days ago, when I posted about the seeming abundance of new (to me) combat ship and carrier names.

Almost universally, players agree that the Japanese player must have considerable "bumps" in their OOB (and other things, like industry and research) in order to make the game interesting enough to play into the late years. It is in all our interest to keep the Japanese players engaged and enjoying the game.

In recent years, we've seen that experienced Japanese players can play deeply into the game and that, sometimes, they rip apart the Allies to the point that the game may be (not is, "may be") swinging too far. Maybe. Maybe not.

The introduction of 4EB into the Japanese OOB diminishes one of the few advantages an Allied player has, at least early in the game. The Allied air force typically fights at a disadvantage and with real issues with fighter and bomber pools (the PP system to by more planes may counter that; I don't know yet). A Japanese player with a serious pool of long-range 4EB that can hit industry in India or Oz or USA could be an real issue. The damage would be felt and the Allied player would have to stretch his resources further to defend bases deeper. That could be a balance issue...or not. It's worth discussing without player on either side getting hysterical or calling names or simply defaulting to "every the opposition does is wrong/stupid/silly." (You're not doing that, but some folks do.)

The early game has become increasinly favorable to the Japanese, with some exceptions (notably Obvert's vs. Lowpe). It's probably the late game in which Japan might need a boost; not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place. That would be my concern, but I don't have enough date to state anything with specificity or finality.

Behind all of this is my own notion that too many players avoid the Victory Points system. Therefore, they have their own measure of the game. If Japan is dying as it did in the real war, they're "losing." If Japan is doing better, "they're winning." As the game ages into 1944, they start losing stuff like crazy. It's awful. They feel awful. They feel like they're losing. The game is no fun.

But the Victory Point system, as managed by players like Lowpe, Obvert, Lokasenna, and many others, reveals a much different picture. In my game with Obvert, the Allies have been on the offensive for a long time, dealing out alot of punishment (and taking some). Poor Erik....has a 7,000 point lead as we approach April 1945. The "war" says that Japan is losing. The game says Japan isn't losing. It gives Obvert a reason for, and a method of, fighting effectively late.

Yet, alot of Japanese players dismiss the points system for reasons beyond my comprehension. Their contemptuous of it, even. As though playing the game as it was designed to be played is flawed.

If Japanese players (and probably most Allied players too) played the game the way it was designed, more games would go into 1945 and there would be less of a need to unbalance historic OOBs and to overrun China etc.

The game works. It's we players who don't.

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:18:22 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place.


I play allied too, and you cannot imagine how fragile Japan could be just from the start and the more the weeks keep on, as fully exposed in the Obvert vs Lowpe recent game, where a superlative Allied (and Japanese) player, who knows Japan thoroughly and deep, has put at the verge of collapse an experienced Japan; it could happen all the time; it's a thin line;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
A Japanese player with a serious pool of long-range 4EB that can hit industry in India or Oz or USA


Oh yeah I'd ike the option to intruduce th 6 ENG Amerika bomber, sometimes in 1945 or late 1944...

Matrix, anything anytime...?






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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:20:37 PM   
Canoerebel


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I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia, since by then China, Britain and the USA would have surrendered.

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:21:38 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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These were for real;

Ladies and gentlemen, we present the Rita;

Tremble America tremble...




Ps. no heavy bomber can change anything in the balance because they are prohibitive for Japan to produce and keep operatonal in the required numbers, besides they come into operatonal life, in realistic terms, too late in the war;

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< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 12/20/2018 4:23:15 PM >

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:27:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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Anything added or subtracted or tweaked in the game can affect balance. I'm not saying that it does, but it certainly can. After nine years, the game has reached a stasis (balance) that can be tipped unknowingly or accidentally or with the addition of a feather to one side or the other. That doesn't always happen but it's the kind of thing that must be considered.

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:31:10 PM   
Canoerebel


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Someday I'd like to hear from Erik and Jeff about what allowed the Allies to turn the tables so early. There's no doubt that the accidental invasion of Russia was a major factor. If, in the end analysis, that was really the deciding factor, then it doesn't indicate an issue with balance early. But if there were other factors - if Erik's play or Jeff's play revealed weaknesses in the game that could be replicated so that there were balance issues, we'd need to address them. We don't have enough information to know, yet.

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:48:45 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia


That's just silly talk. Why would the Japanese need to form a coalition with territory that they conquered in 1946?

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 4:59:11 PM   
John 3rd


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August 23, 1942
India

PERHAPS the worm begins to turn this day. The three day air battle over Howrah and Calcutta crescendos with massed strikes on both targets. THIS DAY the Japanese losses look good.

The man's B-17s truly take it on the chin as 7 B-17 fight 45 Fighters and then 8 B-17 fight their way through 38 Fighters.

At Calcutta a convoy finishes unloading three more AA units--raising the total to EIGHT--as well as three more Heavy Artillery units from Manchuria. Those AA guns go into immediate work.

Will he come again tomorrow? I bet YES.

Looking forward to that, a conversation this morning with Minister Benoit reminds me of the tacics I used to fight Mr. Roper in Japan. After going up, the Fighter Altitudes come way down. We will engage the enemy is low level dog fighting. Tojo: 9,000, M3 7,000, and M2 5,000. We'll see if that change in tactics helps even more...





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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 5:02:43 PM   
John 3rd


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Really appreciate the thoughts Dan. Keep up the commentary Gents...


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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 5:19:02 PM   
John 3rd


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Michael and I were talking about the comments on the LIZ and I think we shall go back and do a revamp. Will Post when I get a chance.

Sean and I are turning and burning just Dan and I would occasionally do. Remember that MISTER ROPER??!!

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RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 5:39:56 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty sure you'd enjoy Japan acquiring nuclear weaponry in 1948 and forming a coalition with India in 1950 to declare war on Russia, since by then China, Britain and the USA would have surrendered.


Yes but the game take place in a more restricted time frame;

https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Amerika-Bomber-and-Nakajima-G10N-technically-possible-during-the-period-of-WWII

If you may read this very interesting and revealing article, it would results that in any realistic way any axis faction could have brought a strategic bombing campaign over the national territory of USA;

the atomic bomb was quite far from Japan and in any lenght not as it was at hand for the USA;


the game in its "stock" format is a very close representation of Japan's situation throughout the war as it developed itself in reality; this means that it offers a relatively limited range of options to Japan, and even if those were available to her at least from a technical point of view;

but


if, because of different strategical and operational choices, Japan would have been put in more comfortable industrial and logistical position (and given a better leadership and choices), so then we may well could see a different naval OOB, and different composition of air units;

the purpose of these mods is to provide the player with a wider range of options (at last with regards to Japan), other wise precluded by the closed structure of the game;

if the Japanese side had been able to reach a looser industrial position, IF THE ALLIED PLAYER FAILED - for any reason - to damage or reduce Japan's industrial expansion, so then you should rightfully be liable to be confronted with a wider range of options and parafernalia, to include yes some strat bombers (never that much) and others;


just shift and adjust your strategy from working on the periphery, to obtain a loose boombing and invading stage closer to mainland Japan, to casting a wedge into the essential and urreplaceble resource cord from SRA to Japan, and you'll see no 4 eng bomber nor advanced destroyersor or similia in any meaningful quantity even if the option is given to the player;




(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 297
RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/20/2018 6:00:08 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
August 24, 1942
India


My opponent BLINKS! With the exception of a Squadron of SBDs that get wiped out, India is delightfully calm this turn.

The SBDs bring up the point that there are all sorts of Marines operating within the Air Campaign presently. There are at least 3-4 Wildcat and 3 SBD Squadrons in theatre. This is GREAT! Keeps them out of the Pacific...



This screenshot shows him trying to interdict my RR again. He'll have a mean surprise when he finds out that there is an ID and two TK Reg in Cuttack. Will let him cut and then I shall CRUSH his unit.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 298
RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/21/2018 3:01:32 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Just back from Bumblebee. Give it a pleasant, non-Michael Bey, thumbs up.


August 25, 1942
Australia


The war does go on elsewhere!

Here we have a small Allied Raid hit Exmouth. The 4 Hudson and 2 B-17 encounter a very tough set of seven ZEROs who shoot down the Hudsons and hit both B-17s. NICE!


The screenshot shows the Pt Hedlund Invasion Force of a 100% prepped ID filled with 3 BBs, CLs, and 8-10 DDs. The Aussie Brigade and Cav unit based there have been getting hit for weeks by daily Japanese bombing raids. No more supply so this might be fun to watch. The 'x' are Japanese controlled hexes so the Aussies can only retreat in the WRONG direction when we take the base.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Bearcat2)
Post #: 299
RE: The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS - 12/21/2018 4:56:03 AM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
not the early game, when Japan is frequently running over the Allies all over the place.


I play allied too, and you cannot imagine how fragile Japan could be just from the start and the more the weeks keep on, as fully exposed in the Obvert vs Lowpe recent game, where a superlative Allied (and Japanese) player, who knows Japan thoroughly and deep, has put at the verge of collapse an experienced Japan; it could happen all the time; it's a thin line;



I don't think that game is a valid reference because there was an unintended activation of Russia.

Hartwig






< Message edited by modrow -- 12/21/2018 4:59:19 AM >

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 300
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