gdpsnake
Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline
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OK,
There's been some discussion on some issues (from myself included!)
If any questions are still unanswered, please restate them.
REKNOY,
I assume you are happy with SOAPY and SNAKE explanations of no depots in blockade boxes?
PFNOGNOFF,
Are you happy with SNAKE (SOAPY agreed) explanation of your corps beseiging question?
CAPITAINE,
Were you happy with my explanation of control change, when and how?
I'm still asking the question of whether a garrison is required but assuming it is, is this explanation satisfactory?
ANY OTHERS?
Any other issues?
CAPITAINE,
You said:
I don't think, SNAKE, that you put all the options before him. You used the glossary exclusively and that is a bit misleading (since Harry didn't get the full scope of relevant rules).
***A true statement regarding ANY rules discussion. However,
First, you have 4.6, where major countries are assigned "control" in the "Political Phase". In 4.6.3.1, you have a discussion of "marking" Major Power control by using one of its "control flags" in in the minor country. No garrison mentioned, and inferentially none would likely be present in this situation.
***A rule that determines who is chosen to run a neutral country. What does it have to do with a conquered minor?
***4.6.3.1 just says what happens at that moment - not that control is retained. Obviously, the country can be 'attacked/controlled' by other players and it doesn't say what happens if the "conquering player" fails to meet the requirements of garrison. He may own it for the moment but that doesn't mean it stays that way.
Second, you have 10.2.1 referring to a "one month's unbesieged occupation of its captial", thereafter stating that "the old control flag is changed for a conquered control flag of the new controlling major power." Combined with the rules under 7.5.4 (Sieges), in every instance where the besieger wins a siege, it is noted that the city is "captured". Then, in 7.7 (The Conquest Step) you have reference to "the control flags are changed only if the capital of the minor country was occupied DURING THE PREVIOUS TURN AND THE CONQUEROR HAS MAINTAINED UNINTERRUPTED AND UNBESIEGED OCCUPATION FOR THE ENTIRE CURRENT TURN.
***10.2.1 saying HOW the country is conquered - nothing about a player Maintaining control. One could argue that if it takes unbeseiged occupation to conquer than one needs occupation to maintain the status!
***7.5.4 Again, more rules stating how a city is captured and not how control is maintained.
***7.7 Control flags between conquering major powers are changed. The rule discusses how a change of control occurs between major powers and says nothing about how a conquerer MAINTAINED control. It only says when someone else conquers a PREVIOUSLY CONTROLLED minor country then flags are changed. The reul says nothing about what the previous owner had to do to maintain that control, only what is required to change control to a new major power (I argue one would need to maintain control with a capitol garrison)
However, this at least, does lend some argument because it also doesn't say anything about what happens when a major power fails to maintain control. As I've offered before, the country goes neutral at this point and ANY control flag is removed.
Once you get that flag to change, it would take another occupation to "conquer" that minor capitol.
***True again, but no mention of MAINTAINING control in the interem.
Finally, and this seems dispositive, you have this:
10.3.2.2 If there is no garrison, the city is controlled by the major power or neutral monor country which controls the territory in which the city is located -- port cities without garrisons may not use their harbor defenses.
***Can you show me how a player "controls" territory? Read the definition of CONTROLLED PROVINCE. Only home or ceded provinces are ever controlled by a major power OR ENTIRE minor countries per the definition of CONTROLLED MINOR COUNTRIES or MINOR FREE STATES.
Read 10.2.2 "...conquers LIKE A MINOR COUNTRY..." not 'like a province.'
Read the rules under 10.4 "..a major power conquers Denmark by CONTROLLING COPENHAGEN"!!!!!!
A player never 'controls' territory otherwise. Think about it and look at the map. Rule 8.2.1.1 tax collection is by home country, ceded provinces and controlled minor countries. One does not collect taxes BY controlled territory. One can't collect ANY tax from a ceded province or minor country if the capitol city is occupied by unbeseiged enemy factors. (ONE CAN LOSE INCOME FROM OCCUPIED CITIES OF PROVINCES BUT NEVER COLLECT)
SO, I own Denmark with one factor in Copenhagen. Who cares if French corps are in some or all the other cities/provinces of Denmark. The French don't 'own' those territories and can't collect ANY MONEY. They may control the cities for port gun usage, combat, preventing income from that province to me etc. but they don't own the territories of Denmark.
It's still Denmark, It's still ALL mine until the capitol is taken.
Clearly, the rules anticipate major power conqest control WITHOUT a garrison being maintained. I agree that one Turn of occupation (i.e., garrison) must be completed to attain control initially, but once the flag changes, that country, and all vacant cities within, is controlled by the power who placed the control flag.
*** I don't see this. Yes, anticipation of major power CHANGE of conquest control but not LOSS of THAT CONTROl due to a failure to meet the definition of controlling the capitol. I.E. Control can change to a DIFFERENT MAJOR POWER if the conditions are met but not that CONTROL COULD BE LOST (Revert to neutrality) if a player FAILS TO MAINTAIN FACTORS IN THE CAPITOL.
THIS IS THE ISSUE since I can find NO RULES other than the definitions as to how a major power defines his control of a minor country.
Further, rule 10.5.2.1 suggests that a major power in the "Instability Zone" will have its conquered minor countries become neutral UNLESS there is an unbesieged corps of that major power in the minor country. A fortiori, this means that control when NOT in the "Instability Zone" does not require occupation to retain control, and that per 10.3.2.2, "no garrison" of a city means control of a city belongs to the power that controls the territory/country.
***Your fortiori is faulty logic. 10.5.2.1 implies to me that REVOLT IS POSSIBLE unless a major power has ACTUAL ARMIES (CORPS)in the area to "COW" the population. It doesn't say the minor won't revert with just garrisons! I say it will! And the factors are handled as in 10.3.3. The
Your fortiori doesn't say anything about occupation! Also see the exceptions. It states in the exceptions that minors can go neutral!
SO YES WE HAVE REVOLT RULES IN THE GAME!!
******BIGGIE*****10.5.2.2 allows countries to go neutral REGARDLESS of occupation which implies OCCUPATION IS REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN CONTROL AT OTHER TIMES. MY fortiori LOL!
***10.3.2.2 Yes, EXACTLY! So, I control Copenhagen and hence Denmark so I control every ungarrisoned city in the country of Denmark that isn't occupied by another major power! BECAUSE I OWN ALL THE TERRITORY OF DENMARK REGARDLESS of other major powers units UNLESS THEY ARE IN THE CITY AND HENCE CONTROL THAT CITY for COMBAT PURPOSES!
10.3.2.1 "....control is with the major power formally controlling the (ceded) provence or minor country."
In short, I think the pertinent rules needed to make a full, informed ruling were not placed before Harry (since he confessed not having access to them).
This would be crucial b/c it would alter the meaning and content of all of the rules I've cited above.
***I agree, so I need you to restate your arguments citing rules that you believe discuss what constitues control of a minor country or territory and how that control IS MAINTAINED or changed. I'll be the first to admit that the only ones I can find are in the Glossary and they are not perfect hence the questions.
I will send your arguments if you wish regardless of my attempts to counter your statements above. But could you restate them?
This is one of those easy ones! LOL!
SNAKE
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