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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII: World at War >> Italy and DAK

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Italy and DAK - 12/30/2018 1:07:35 AM

elxaime

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Just a couple of thoughts so far on the 39' Campaign as Axis as regards North Africa:

- Italy seems a lot weaker than SC Europe. The Allies look to be able to bum rush North Africa pretty easily. The best approach seems to be to evacuate the Tobruk corps and just leave the garrisons for delay purposes

- a factor here is that DAK deploys in Northern Italy. Building them up and then water transporting them, through Allied dominated seas (the RM is also pretty pathetic) also seems a doomed choice; best to send them to either Russia or keep them to defend Italy.

Maybe it is the game scale in Global War. But the North Africa campaign seems devoid of real choices and seems a snooze, as the only thing that makes sense is to turtle the Italians in Italy.

Maybe an Axis side veteran can explain why this is too pessimistic!

Post #: 1

RE: Italy and DAK - 12/30/2018 12:38:26 PM

Pocus

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Italy with Infantry 2 (you do that asap, I even cannibalized one of the initial chit to get going on turn 2 with 2 chits) and with an extra income (like Greece) is a nice sidekick to Germany. I can't say I found the situation hopeless in NA. At least it eats a good part of the UK resources.
I usually ship an HQ, a Pz Korps, an Inf Korps to Africa before the DAK appears. Then the DAK goes to Russia indeed. For the ferrying, you need to recon with the Italian Sub and perhaps a sacrificial lamb if the UK blockade is very tight around Tobruk. Now with a Maritime bomber on your side, the sea tends to clear a bit. You can just slalom around the blockade and deliver the most excellent German units. With their 100/100 Readiness/Morale, they are fearsome in Africa against the Brits.

The Italian Exp Force in Russia is a bit pricey though. You pay dearly for the extra HQ.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 9:51:40 AM

elxaime

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How do you get German units to North Africa in the first place? Usually the Med is full of Allied ships, which includes the French Suicide Fleet whose sole purpose in life is to destroy Italian vessels in harbor before they themselves disappear (typically with the help of the massed Allied carriers). I don't see a real counter to the Allies rushing Italy.

< Message edited by elxaime -- 12/31/2018 9:52:41 AM >

(in reply to Pocus)

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 11:10:27 AM

Wahhim

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From: Poland
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elxaime - I guess you've summarized our PBEM game at the moment :). But to be honest in another game I've become a victim of the same tactic.

I believe that in a game against AI it's not a problem, but while playing against another player, I feel like elxaime's point is valid. I agree that if the Allied player is determined to not let Axis' units land in NA, he will be able to do so, and with additional units that GB gets in Egypt right after Italy's DOW, it's pretty impossible to defend NA. Even though you can send/operate air fleets which, without HQ it's not really worth it. I feel like there are some solutions:
1) If DAK is initially deployed in Europe, why should the British units appear only few hexes away from the frontline in Africa? I realize that, if they do appear in England it could make a possibility of Sea Lion much tougher or even making an "early D-Day" in France a real threat. Maybe if they appear near Cairo only when Axis player advances into Egypt's territory, perhaps 2 hexes away from El-Alamein, would it be better. That way an aggresive Allied player would need to send reinforcements on their own to actually lead a successful campaign, cause as it is right now, it seems to be way too easy. At the same time an Axis player who'd decide to advance would be facing consequences of doing so.
2) Give Axis player a choice between deploying units in Italy quicker (as it is right now) or deploying units in Africa 3-4 turns later for an extra cost (or not).
3) Rommel deploying in NA, while the rest of units deploy in Europe.

These are only a few of the possibilites to improve African part of the WWII. As it is now an Axis only choice is to hope that Allied player will drop a ball. If you have to base your strategy not on your own better or worse plan and its execution, but on opponent's huge blunder, then I strongly believe that something needs to be changed.

< Message edited by Wahhim -- 12/31/2018 11:11:44 AM >

(in reply to elxaime)

Post #: 4

RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 3:02:26 PM

Numdydar

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According to Hubert in previous games the Allied player would block the hexes where the DAK would appear in NA. Which would prevent them from showing up at all. Plus the Allied players complained that they wanted to have the chance to intercept the DAK on the way to Libya.

Of course the counter to this as noted above in this game is to just send Germans to NA much earlier out of the normal forces. Then when the 'real' DAK shows up, send them off to Russia instead.

Personally from previous game in the series, I much preferred the DAK showing up in NA versus what happens now. This implementation just sucks to be blunt.

Rather than having fixed hexes when units of the DAK show up, create a pool of hexes (maybe 20-30?) where if the 'normal hex is blocked, it picks a hex out of the pool that is unoccupied and puts the unit there instead.

As far as attacking transports, that is a pipe dream imho. There would need to be a line of 2-3 ships 2 hexes apart to even try and block. With the planes in Italy and IT Navy that is 2-3 ships sunk. Plus all you would need is to kill one of them to get through. Also if the British want to send enough ships to do that, then subs will be having a field day. Plus the invasion of England became that much easier.

There is a reason that the middle Med was an Italian 'lake' in RL. It was deadly for the Allies to operate there. The game does reelect that as well.

(in reply to Wahhim)

Post #: 5

RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 3:53:43 PM

Wahhim

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The way I experienced it so far is that, if you pull carriers from GB shores to NA and you place ships next to the Italian ports in NA (after DOW), low supply won't allow you to land unit at the same turn. With 3 carriers, 2 or even 3 subs and throw away French fleet for "surprise attacks" to right away damage Italian ships in ports, you can easily sink 1, sometimes even 2 Italian ships per turn and damage some as well. Due to increased scale in contrast to WiE, you need to use only 4 ships to successfully intercept any Axis unit that would attempt to travel to NA. Let's also take under consideration full French fleet, initially deployed GB's ships in Mediterraen, possibility of Aussie's fleet and reinforcements from GB appearing- you try to break that blockade - considering British tech advantage your ships are gone next turn, no matter what you do. As Germany you can't send reinforcements to NA, because you don't have port in Mediterraean and even can't deploy air fleets in Italy beforehand. My attempt to sneak German subs into Mediterraean ended with:
1) a sunk sub;
2) diving back... to the Atlantic.

Even if you send entire German air fleet to Mediterraean after Italian DOW:
(1) it will slow down advance in France and take some precious MPP;
(2) it will be quite obvious that Sealion ain't happening unless you want to play operate game and delay tech/unit count by doing so;
(3) you'll still have to find enemy ships which are valid targets (French fleet doesn't count);
(4) pray for good weather.

From a few games I've played so far there was no real contest in Mediterraean, concluding with Regia Marina being decimated. Considering Italian income - there is no real way to recover from it.

< Message edited by Wahhim -- 12/31/2018 5:31:23 PM >

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 6

RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 4:55:46 PM

elxaime

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Probably much of this is due to the design choice of map scale. The Mediterranean is much more constricted and as my esteemed opponent points out easier to block choke points, especially so long as France survives. You can get an Italian HQ into North Africa, but forget about Germans as the RM cannot contest the seas against a major Allied deployment. As Italy, you can decide to use your scarce MP in only a few ways. It is essential to get your infantry tech levels up and fill out your land units. That leaves precious little for air force, much less RM, both of which start under strength. Unless you want to send them to hide in the deep Pacific, the Italian navy are sitting ducks. Yes, you can deploy the German air force to protect them, but only after France falls.

Usually when the same successful strategy appears in game after game, with different opponents, it is a sign people are onto something. That is OK so long as there is a reasonable counter. So far, against competent Allied opponents, I see pre-war withdrawal of the Italians and creation of Fortress Italy as the best option. You can probably hide the Italian fleet deep up the Adriatic and give it one of the German starting fighters as a protector if need be (assuming also you have built up the Italian fighter). But whenever SC requires actions so wildly divergent from history in order to proceed, it bears rethinking. This is true as a whole for the North African region. But again, much of this is probably due to the game scale.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 5:20:57 PM

Numdydar

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I agree that using the French fleet so ahistorical breaks the game. My points above were for the Italian navy to survive intact so to actually be a threat after France falls.

The game scale does not help as well because the Adriatic is not big enough for the Italian navy to 'hide' from the suicidal French fleet.

The game definitely needs to do something about the freedom of action the French fleet currently has. Maybe freeze the fleet for x number of turns or until Germany goes to war with the low countries, or takes a hex of mainland France, or �

(in reply to elxaime)

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 6:27:44 PM

MrLongleg

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Same experience here. My Italian Navy was completely destroyed by French suicide ships and the Med fleet of the Brits - in port. There was nothing I could do. And the new map scale kind of destroys the game. Much fewer hexes to get to Moscow for example.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 7:00:36 PM

Schokolokos

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The French fleet is not a big problem, more the british Carriers.

Im sending a german sub and a german fighter plane to Italy, combined with the Italian figher and the submarine it is enough to stop the allied fleet.
Allso you can "time" the german attack on Paris, so the French fleet having only 1 turn before they disappear. Its even possible to conquer Paris the same turn Italy joins the allies.

@MrLongleg fewer hexes to Moscow is good for Axis and Italian navy destroyed is good for Allies, thats not an argument.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 12/31/2018 10:15:59 PM

elxaime

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Thinking this through some more, I see the best counter to the Suicidal French Fleet/massed British carriers blitz against the RM is the Luftwaffe, a U-boat and built up Italian air force. The Luftwaffe and Italian air won't help with the suicidal naval attacks on ships in port though, especially by Allied subs against the low tech Italian battleships. For that you need to send a U-Boat (preferably two). Along with the Italian sub, they can form a "plug" across the mouth of the Adriatic and you can hide the entire Italian fleet up by Venice, putting the weaker, damaged ones, in port. That way the Allied surface ships and aircraft carriers have to eat their way through the Axis subs before getting at the RM. The German and Italian air can make the carrier air attacks painful.

The main drawback to this maximum approach is the Luftwaffe has a marginal edge for the Battle of France. You have two German fighters dealing with at least three Allied fighters (two UK and one French).

In the end though, any damage the soon-to-be-bye-bye French fleet can do is mission accomplished. Scarce Italian MP need to be spent to keep the RM from vanishing and this makes the Italian land forces in Africa easy pickings to the UK mass that forms in Egypt.

I wonder if a more elegant solution is how the Adriatic gets handled. Perhaps, like the Copenhagen straits, the Adriatic could be blocked to enemy naval movement unless adjacent land hexes are held. I don't recall the Allied navies operating much in the Adriatic during WW2 so long as the southern boot of Italy and Albania were enemy held.

< Message edited by elxaime -- 12/31/2018 10:16:16 PM >

(in reply to Schokolokos)

Post #: 11

RE: Italy and DAK - 1/2/2019 6:03:40 PM

BobbyS53

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Maybe if the Italians had another sub and a maritime bomber unit available upon declaring war it would help balance the affects of the French fleet?

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RE: Italy and DAK - 1/2/2019 6:15:32 PM

Xenocide

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I am not sure if this is capable of being coded but I would argue for a change that if the French Fleet is mostly destroyed France just surrenders to Germany including their colonies.

The main reason the Germans accepted the Vichy surrender were:

1. Make sure the French Fleet did not fight on with the British and it was safely parked in port.
2. Keep the colonies from trying to fight on.

If the French fleet is gone #1 is a non-issue and the Vichy government couldn't keep control of the territories in any case. Give Germany ALL of France in the surrender and have the French colonies just go neutral with no option to fund or form Free France.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 1/2/2019 11:18:47 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

Maybe if the Italians had another sub

Historically they had 116 submarines. I don't have this game so I wonder how many sub units they start with.

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RE: Italy and DAK - 1/2/2019 11:21:35 PM

Mithrilotter

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What about modifying the Decision Event to allow the DAK to be placed in North Africa, at a higher cost to reflect shipping, or placed in Italy at the current cost?

(in reply to Xenocide)

Post #: 15